Stop the Bus!! This is getting TOO MUCH!! Unbelievable! Now we have another child to the randy William Ninnes that he didn't look after? He left James Walker to his parents and now another, poor Edward, to his Uncle and Aunt, George and Mary Ann Green. And what of Emma Cook? She seems to be a strange lady in all this? James Walker Ninnes's birth certificate states that she is "Living on the Bath Road near Devises" and yet we find another child, Edward, born to them. A very strange relationship? And this child, Edward is born in 1840 and then 7 years later William (Junior) is born to William and Mary Ann Topp and in 1854 those 3 are in South Australia! Given that there is 7 years between Edward and William is there yet another child??? That would be too much!
I've followed through with Edward and discovered that he married Eliza Slater (from Leeds, Yorkshire) in 1864 at Westham, London and James Herbert Edward was born in Bath, Somerset in 1864 and Marie Louise was born in Hastings, Somerset in 1868. Edward is a Tailor. They are all in the 1871 Census but in the 1881 Census only Edward appears as a visitor at 19 Bennett St., Southwark Christchurch, London and that he is a Widow(sic Widower). I can't find any deaths in freeBMD for Eliza between 1871 and 1881 nor can I find any Census records for James Henbert Edward Ninnes nor Marie Louise Ninnes. Is there any way else of finding what might have happened to them. Also Edward is not in the 1891 Census and there is an Edward Ninnes death in 1885 at Holborn, London of a 45yo person so I can assume that it is him?
That looks good Ray - but oddly Edward was not yet widowed in 1881 Eliza and the children are living with her mother Sarah Slater - tricky to find because of the transcription, James Herbert uses Herbert and Marie Louise becomes just Louise, not sure where Maud was in 1881 but she reappears in 1891:
Londoner. Thanks for the information about Edward Ninnes. I've searched for him on freeBMD to get the Volume and Page nos. so that I can order a birth certificate but he didn't turn up (I used phonetic and the closest was Edward John Noons). Are you able to tell me that kind of information?
I'm sure Londoner won't mind me slotting in my 2penneth for now .
When Londoner 1st found an Edward Ninnes, Bath in censuses with the Green family, it seemed there was a good chance of a connection with your Ninnes family. Yet none could actually be found ; although George Green seems to have been baptized in the same church where Mary Green later married James Ninnes.
FBMD revealed up no such registered birth; myself, I wondered if Edward was perhaps an illegitimate son of young Wm Ninnes born in 1839/40 to some unknown lady, Wm Ninnes who you indicate may in 1838 have been separated from wife Emma. In that scenario, Edward's birth may have been registered under the surname of this unknown lady, yet because all "knew" your Wm Ninnes to be the father & George Green apparently a relative agreed to bring him up, he was known as Edward Ninnes. Just a theory, you understand.
Then idling away on Freereg this dull weekend, I was stunned to see a baptism appearing May 1840 for young Edward, as Ninnes, to Wm, jeweller, & Emma. So you really would expect the mother to be Emma, & the birth reg to be in a variant form of Ninnes.
But FBMD has no sign of anything resembling Edward Ninnes that you or I can find. I've even tried Edw*, no surname, anywhere in Somerset..... & no 1st name, NIN* anywhere in the country 1838 - 1840..... And nothin of seeming promise using phonetics, as you say...
I have no idea what the solution is. FBMD has 100% transcription coverage for that period in time.
So, was Edward's birth registration completely missed? Seems possible, these things can happen. Indications are that there may have been strained relations in the marriage or something afoot, what with in Spring 1841 a year later the 1st son being with one set of relations, & the 2nd son with another lot - & Wm Ninnes (as far as we can see at present) nowhere to be seen....
Could be Londoner or CT have better luck.......
Quite fascinating, wondering quite What's Occurring in this family!
Another snippet - could be totally irrelevant and not your Ninnes....
In National Archives there is a will, 40128/48, February 24 1876 registered in Bristol, that of one David Nyman (his death was aged 65, Clifton - near-enough-Bristol - RD, Mar Q 1876). The will has various beneficiaries; including an "Emma Hawkins of 23 Canonbury Road, London, (widow of William Ninnes)". Also on the interesting list of beneficiaries is a servant of Emma Hawkins.
I think this Emma Hawkins could be the one who comes up on an 1871 census search as age 51, in Islington RD, as that's where the main Canonbury Road is; 1861 age 41 Islington RD; possibly maybe 1851 age 35 Bristol???
A look-up would be much appreciated CT!
(Testator David Nyman appears in Clifton RD - Bristolish - 1871 & 1851 & 1841.)
Now, we know the Emma who made a young marriage with your Wm Ninnes seems to be the one who died in the Bristol RD June Q 1880 age 61.
Could this will be a trace on Emma in the 1870s?
There are few Wm Ninnes~Emma marriages that I can see post 1837 civil registration - Wm Ninnes ~ Emma Bawden Truro RD Sep Q 1855 Wm Ninnes ~ Emma Louisa Nicholls Croydon Dec 1875 - that one's your Wm Henry Nash born Brighton, the married couple still very much together in 1881, so that Emma is not the beneficiary in the will.
Just thought you might like to keep busy in your investigations Ray! ;D
Post by Cornish Terrier on May 31, 2011 21:23:40 GMT -5
That address in the 1871 Census matches the information from the Will of David Nyman so it would appear to be the right Emma Hawkins.
And my reading of the description 'widow of William Ninnes' suggests that this is Emma Cook who has married for a second time. (Or perhaps a third time?)
But I am so far unable to find the marriage.
I can find only two possibilities:-
David King Hawkins married Emma Norris - Oundle R.D. 1847 David Hawkins married Emma Blencowe - Warwick R.D. 1873
You can find 'Davie King Hawkins' and wife Emma at Wellingborough, Northamptonshire in 1851.
And now that great crock of cow manure called FamilySearch has frustrated me so much that I don't know quite where I was up to or what I was going to try and search for.
They have lots of good stuff there (although they tease with the useful stuff like Cornwall PRs and then just remove them) but to get at it has become such a painful process they may as well lock it all in there bloody vaults again and throw away the keys!
For about half an hour now I have been trying to log in. I have rebooted the modem and the PC in case that was a problem but no, still no access.
In case you are wondering .......... I am damned angry!
When you can get into FamilySearch I reckon they should supply a copy of War and Peace.
I mean - most times whilst waiting for the results of a query there is time to read nearly two chapters!!!!
Sorry Sue. Wm Ninnes ~ Emma Bawden Truro RD Sep Q 1855 can't be my William because he arrived in South Australia in 1854. I believe that your statement "Emma who made a young marriage with your Wm Ninnes seems to be the one who died in the Bristol RD June Q 1880 age 61" is correct. I have that as her death date and place. I don't believe that she is the person in David Nyman's Will. Sorry for CT having problems with Family Search. I have never found what I was looking for on that website yet I have people who tell me that it's great. Besides, it's Yankeephobic.
I think I may be doing a rubbish job of explaining my thinking - apologies.
I was trying to identify the Emma, onetime Emma Ninnes, in the 1876 will.
I mentioned the 1855 Wm Ninnes~Emma Bawden marriage to show that I'd considered who the identity of any Emma Ninnes widow anywhere in England might be, with a view to elimination from being the lady mentioned in the 1876 will. I was not considering that either the 1855 Wm Ninnes or the 1855 Emma Bawden were "yours" Ray; absolutely, they would not be yours.
I'm not quite sure why you are discounting the Emma Hawkins, onetime "widow" of Wm Ninnes, who is a beneficiary in the David Nyman will, from being the 1837 spouse of your Wm Ninnes though.
We don't I think have information as to where Emma was born, so there is nothing to discount her on those grounds; the age in the 1871 census at Canonbury Road, Islington RD is pretty correct; it would not be surprising for her to have connections with the Bristol area given its proximity to Bath - and Bath is c. 15 miles midway between Bristol & Devizes - and people did make false declarations about widowhood, surname etc. from time to time. (Of course Emma may have re-married.)
It's those reasons for the perhaps misdescriptions that can sometimes be the interesting bit, if only we can get at them!
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 1, 2011 15:29:56 GMT -5
Ray - the fact that David Nyman in his Will mentioned Emma Hawkins widow of William Ninnes is a very good indication of exactly who Emma was.
I believe that this is most likely Emma Cook for similar reasons to Sue but there are other factors involved.
We have information that suggests William and Emma 'separated' quite early - in fact I think there is almost irrefutable evidence of that.
I don't recall if we have a death for William.
However, the description of Emma in the Nyman Will is to identify that she was once the wife of a William Ninnes. That she was known as Emma Hawkins in 1871 means that 1. she remarried after the death of William Ninnes or after she was divorced or 2. that she simply took up residence with Mr Hawkins and used his name without actually being married.
I have been unable to find a marriage in England so she may have simply been 'living in sin' as it were.
The wording of the Will indicates that William Ninnes was deceased by 1871 however I would not consider it a necessary fact.
I also have been unable to find any trace of a birth registration for Edward Ninnes under any name (including mother's maiden name) so either registration was missed or the entry has failed to make the indexes.
CT, my William Ninnes died 10 Aug 1874 in Hindmarsh Square, Adelaide, South Australia. His "wife" Mary Ann Topp preceded him on 24 March 1872 at the same address. Both are buried in the West Tce. Cemetery, Adelaide, South Australia. I don't believe that they were ever married. I think that William and Emma never divorced. I think it was a more difficult procedure back then? Sue's description of the geography around the area is interesting to me because I don't know the area and looking at Google Maps doesn't help if you don't know what you are looking at. I've always thought that although England is a small place (It fits into Victoria) and people none the less didn't move very far. That is why, when I first got the information about William (and his brother James Walker) being born in Liverpool, Lancashire I thought that it wasn't correct. Being a Croweater originally (Someone born in South Australia) I'm used to distance and when I look at a map of England and see that Liverpool is some distance from Brighton, Sussex where William's son William was born, my perspective tells me that it must be like Adelaide to Melbourne (800km or 500miles) but of course it's nowhere near that distance, it's just my interpretation of what the distance might be like. So when Sue says that they are within 15 miles (about 25km) of each other that's like moving between any suburb of any town in Australia. For example, I live in Palmerston which is an outer suburb of Darwin and they are 20km (12miles) apart. A fair walk but really not very far. When I discovered in freeBMD a Death in June 1880 of an Emma Ninnes aged 61 at Bristol 6a 18, I figured that it would be William's estranged wife because I thought she might have been born around the same time as William (1819). Your suggestion now is that this assumption may not be correct? "The thot plickens" as they say! I feel like Dr. Watson must have felt like being around Sherlock Holmes. Well out of my depth!
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 1, 2011 19:03:25 GMT -5
Okay - I am also gradually getting my head around some of this!
I have just checked the SA Death Index and found the death record for William Ninnes and his son, both in Adelaide. That, of course, made a little tear in some of my theory but ..........
The term 'widow', just like the term 'cousin' in days gone by in England did not necessarily mean specifically what we understand today.
Although in reality it probably is 'almost' exactly correct in the case of Emma Hawkins.
There seems to be 'a lot of it' in this particular part of the Ninnes family doesn't there!
Now, as I just said - the term 'widow' in David Nyman's Will is 'almost' exactly correct in regard to Emma Hawkins. It appears likely that she did not marry David Hawkins but rather lived with him and shared his name in most regards.
Hence the death record you found for Emma Ninnes is more than likely for Emma Cook who had married William Ninnes in 1837.
Have you ever heard the term 'grass widow'?
From the Collins English Dictionary:-
Grass-widow - n. a wife whose husband has deserted her; a wife left temporarily alone through the absence of her husband on business, etc.
I believe that solves part of the mystery for you.