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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 27, 2008 12:50:18 GMT -5
Londoner - could be a fair possibility. I have had a look at the family and there are certain similarities as you say. I did not actually have Mary in my database and when I checked my St Erth BP. Transcripts I found that it had been transcribed as Maru USTES d/o John and Hannah. John and Hannah were actually the parents of the child (forgotten the name) who was recorded on the line above Mary. But then there is a four or five year gap to the next child that I have - William.. The one child I did not have was Caroline and looking at IGI and a few other things it appears likely to me that she must have been the child batpised to Francis in 1831 as Elizabeth John Eustice. Next item - the first baptism referred to by Gandolf for Charles DALE was actually 1838 and not 1839. (Minor point.) Interestingly, there is a Richard and Jane DALE baptising children at St Ives around that very time. The only Charles DALE baptised at St Ives was back in 1811 and he appears likely to have been a brother to this Richard. Richard appears to have been married twice - to Nancy Trevorrow in 1823 and then to Jane Davey in 1830. His occupation was recorded at different times as either 'labourer' or 'miller' so ..... Perhaps interesting is that the last child baptised to Richard prior to 1841 was a daughter in 1836. First wife Nancy was buried in January 1830 but I cannot find a burial through to 1837 for Jane although she could have died after June of 1837 and before Charles was born. That would give Richard the opportunity to have a fling with Mary EUSTIS. (All conjectural thinking. ) Back to you.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 27, 2008 13:05:21 GMT -5
NEWS ;D Just found Charles in the 1851 Census. - But it doesn't help. He is employed as a servant to Jacob(?) Veal(?) at Hellesveor(?) Very difficult to read but it is certainly Charles DALE, age 12. Indexed as Charles QUALE!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 27, 2008 13:12:25 GMT -5
AND WHAT ABOUT THIS from 1841. CHAS DALO, age 3 Enumerated with the family of Samuel and Ann NEWTON at Halsetown. Well - at least I have found him.
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Post by gandolf on Nov 27, 2008 15:04:56 GMT -5
Interesting. Not sure why I could not find Charles DALE in the the 1841 & 1851 censuses last night, as FreeCensus has him indexed as DALE both times! According to FreeCensus the family he is with in 1851 is NOAL not VEAL 1841 Census Address: Halse Town NEWTON Saml. M 35 Tin Miner Cornwall NEWTON Ann F 35 Cornwall NEWTON Ann F 15 Cornwall NEWTON Saml. M 12 Tin Miner Cornwall NEWTON Margt. F 9 Cornwall NEWTON Priscilla F 6 Cornwall NEWTON John M 1 Cornwall DALE Chas. M 3 Cornwall 1851 Census Address: Hellesvore NOAL Jacob Head U M 46 Farmer Of 12 Acres Empl 2 Labr Cornwall - St Ives NOAL Richard Lodger U M 52 Lodger Cornwall - St Ives TRADREA Maria Servnt U F 44 Farmer's Servant Cornwall - St Ives DALE Charles Servnt - M 12 Farmer's Boy Cornwall - St Ives I agree that Mary Eustice, daughter of Francis is a fair possibility for Charles' mother. The question is why Charles DALE is not apparently not with his mother from a very young age? I did wonder whether the Maria Tredrea listed with the Noal family in 1851 might have been Charles' mother, but given she is unmarried she can't be the same person as Mary Eustice. Also I have found Maria on the 1841 Census as a servant to Margaret Broad at Madron, so the two points together would seem to eliminate her as a possibility. Mary Eustice (b. circa 1818) does not seem to be on the 1841 census as an unmarried woman. There are only three Mary Eustices (incl. variants) of anything like the right age. One can be eliminated as she is a wife and also has a daughter born about the same time as Charles. The second is also a married woman with children aged 3 & 6m, and is in any event in the wrong location at St. Keverne. The third is a Maria, and she is a little too young, and also in the wrong place at Kenwyn Truro. NOTE: there are apparently no marriages of a Mary Eustice between 1837 & 1841. One solution that may explain the puzzle could be in the following: Deaths Jun 1839 (>99%) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EUSTICE Mary Helston 9 76 Deaths Jun 1840 (>99%) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EUSTIS Mary Helston 9 70 It is possible that one of these two deaths might be Mary Eustice (b. circa 1818) and that might explain why Charles Dale is apparently not with his mother. Presumably the Newton family (perhaps related?) took Charles in to raise him, albeit perhaps not as a family member exactly, since he is working as a servant at a very young age.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 27, 2008 17:41:45 GMT -5
Samuel Newton married Ann Richards at Zennor in 1823. Take your pick - is one of them a relative somehow! It does seem the logical answer that young Charles might be with a relative but .... Back to you.
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Post by gandolf on Nov 28, 2008 6:06:48 GMT -5
Have been playing around a bit with the mysterious Catherine Rosewall...
Catherine's birth was NOT registered under the surname of Rosewall, indicating that she was illegitmate as we suspected.
There are two birth registrations that could well be her: Catherine Rosewall Brooking Dec 1/4 1852 Penzance RD Catherine Rosewall Stevens Mar 1/4 1853 Penzance RD
Catherine Rosewall Stevens appears to be the daughter of John & Catherine (Thomas) Stevens, and with her parents on later censuses.
Which leaves us with Catherine Rosewall Brooking.
At this stage I cannot find a record of her dying before 1861, nor can I find any record of her on the 1861 census. This includes checking all the Brooking variants I can think of (Brookin, Brookan, Brooken, Brookon, etc).
Now, there is also a Henry Brooking, son of Samuel, who marries at St. Ives in 1852. He is of Trowan, which is practically next door to where the Rosewall family was living at Anjou Green and later Folly.
I suspect that Henry may have had a sister, most likely named Elizabeth, who may have been Catherine's mother.
There are several Elizabeth Brookings (and one Mary) who die between 1852 & 1861 any of whom might have been the mother if I am right.
If anyone has access to the St. Ives baptismal records for the early 1850's it would be interesting to see whether Catherine's baptism is recorded.
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Post by londoner on Nov 28, 2008 8:22:45 GMT -5
Looks Like Catherine Rosewall Brooking below
1871 Census:
Trowan,1,William Hollow,Head,W,74,,Frmr Of 11 Acrs,St. Ives Cornwall,, Cecilia Brooking,Dau,W,,43,Housekeeper,St. Ives Cornwall,, Catherine R Brooking,Niece,U,,18,,St. Ives Cornwall,, William H Brooking,Nephew,U,16,,Farm Lab,St. Ives Cornwall,, Folio 30 Page 12 Cecilia Brooking,Niece,U,,13,Scholar,St. Ives Cornwall,, Sarah Brooking,Niece,,,11,Scholar,St. Ives Cornwall,,
According to the Hollow family site she was the daughter of Henry Brooking and Cecilia Hollow who m 1852
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Post by gandolf on Nov 28, 2008 8:42:53 GMT -5
That certainly seems to be her, Londoner. Apparently not my week! yet another theory shot down in flames. Must be the "other" Hollow family to my lot, as I don't have Cecelia in my database. With the extra info, I was finally able to find Catherine on the 1861 census. Yet another variant of Brooking. Address: Trowan BROOKAM Henry Head M M 37 Tin Miner Cornwall - Gulval BROOKAM Cecilia Wife M F 35 - Cornwall - St Ives BROOKAM Catherine K Dau - F 8 Scholar Cornwall - St Ives BROOKAM William Son - M 7 Scholar Cornwall - St Ives BROOKAM Cecilia Dau - F 4 Scholar Cornwall - St Ives BROOKAM Sarah Dau - F 1 - Cornwall - St Ives
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Post by londoner on Nov 28, 2008 9:26:04 GMT -5
William HOLLOW 1798 - 1877 BIRTH: 1798, St Ives, CON [7001] DEATH: 1877, Penzance, CON [7002] BAPTISM: 30 MAR 1798, St Ives, CON [7003] Father: William HOLLA Mother: Ann CURNOW
Family 1 : Cecilia NOALL MARRIAGE: 19 OCT 1824, St Ives, CON [13039] +Mary Ann HOLLOW +Cecilia HOLLOW +William HOLLOW +Nanny Noall HOLLOW Family 2 : Elizabeth (Betsy) HOLLOW MARRIAGE: 15 APR 1838, St Ives, CON [13040]
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 29, 2008 5:19:39 GMT -5
Gandolf - what about:-
Catherine Jane DUNN - birth regd. June Qtr 1854 at Penzance R.D.
In the 1861 Censu the only Catherine DUNN born in Cornwall abot the right time was born at Gwennap and is daughter of John DUNN.
Have only had a very brief look but this one could be a possibility given that John ROSEWALL married Georgina DUNN in 1857.
CT
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Post by gandolf on Nov 29, 2008 7:28:57 GMT -5
Thanks for that CT, I hadn't got to the point of checking every Catherine born in the right time frame, as the two with Rosewall middle names looked more "inviting" and so chased off after them first. Catherine Jane Dunn born 1854 is certainly a likely candidate. The logical extension of this would be that Catherine's mother is quite possibly Georgina Dunn (or perhaps a close relative) Like you the only Catherine Dunn I can find in the 1861 census was born in Gwennap, which would fit the only other Catherine Dunn born around that time (Catherine Dunn born Redruth 1854). However, this gets even more curious every time I look closer at it. The marriage details at St. Ives give the following: 15 Nov 1857 by Banns John Rosewall of full age bachelor Shipwright of St. Ives (Father: George Rosewall, Farmer) Georgiana Dunn of full age spinster of St. Ives (Father: George Patrick Dunn, Officer in the County) Witnesses: Mary [?], Thomas Williams, George Rosewall First question - what is an Officer in the County (George Dunn's occupation) Strangely I cannot find so far find a family that fits George Patrick Dunn in Cornwall on the 1841, 1851 or 1861 censuses on FreeBDM I did find Georgia Dunn on the 1841 census, but she is not with her parents Address: Bailey Lane, St. Ives WILLIAMS Ann F 40 Seaman's Wife Cornwall DOWNING Grace F 20 Cornwall DUNN Georgiana F 7 Cornwall Georgina Dunn was apparently also NOT baptised in St. Ives, even though she consistently listed it as her place of birth. The only two Georges in Cornwall old enough to be her father in 1841 both have their own families with them, including each with a child the same age as Georgina Dunn - so neither can be her father (unless she is a twin?) Georgina is presumably back with her family by 1851. The only problem is where that is - neither Georgina or her father appear to be in Cornwall. And unfortunately the FreeBDM coverage of the rest of Britain is patchy. There is no Georgina (or for that matter George) Dunn that is anything close to the right age for Georgina Dunn in the 1851 census for Cornwall. So the question then becomes not only where was Georgina, but if she is out of Cornwall in 1851, is she back in time to be a mother to Catherine. Or if Georgina is not the mother, then where is the rest of Georgina's family - one of whom might be the mother of Catherine. Having totally confused myself and probably everyone else, I think this is one that might have to put aside in the too hard basket for the moment
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Post by gandolf on Nov 29, 2008 8:14:00 GMT -5
Stop Press Think I have just found Georgina Dunn on the 1851 census. Piece: HO107/1917 Place: Uny Lelant -Cornwall Enumeration District: 2g Civil Parish: St. Ives Ecclesiastical Parish: - Folio: 464 Page: 9 Schedule: 47 Address: Baileys Lane, St. Ives WILLIAMS Anna M. Wife M F 49 Mariner's Wife Cornwall - St Ives UNREADABLE Georginina Boardr U F 19 School Mistress Cornwall - St Ives It would appear that she was still living with the same woman she was with in 1841. Presumably some sort of relative?? The Grace Downing in the 1841 census appears to have been the Grace Downing born 11 oct 1818 & baptised (Wesleyan) 25 Oct 1818 - parents Henry Downing & Ann Bennett. Grace seems to be the only child of Henry & Ann. I suspect that Henry may have died prior to 1841 and Ann remarried to a Williams. This could make Grace Downing Ann William's daughter, although it is equally possible that I am wrong and Grace was simply boarding with Ann Williams. There is an Ann Downing (age 32, which is a bit young I know) who marries Jasper Williams at Madron in 1838. Unlikely, but it might just be relevant. Based purely on dates, it is just possible that Ann Williams of the 1841 & 1851 censuses is Georgina's mother. Although we would still need an explanation of where Georgina got the Dunn surname. However, the fact that Georgina is listed as a boarder in 1851 would suggest that if there is a relationship between Ann Williams and Georgina, it is more likely to be that of an aunt to Georgina.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 29, 2008 8:45:46 GMT -5
Based on your latest I think you may just find this St Ives baptism interesting:- George Patrick Rosmore D DOWNING s/o Henry (seaman) and Nancy DOWNING baptised 16th September 1829 And now I think I can identify Grace DOWNING for you:- From IGI - St Ives Wesleyan Baptisms:- Grace Bennatts DOWNING born 11th October 1818 and baptised 25th October 1818 d/o Henry DOWNING and Ann Bennatts (nee PICKERSGILL) Henry and Ann were married at St Ives 21st July 1817. Grace married Richard QUICK at St Ives 29th June 1842 FreeBMD shows two marriages for Ann DOWNING with a WILLIAMS on the same page - both before 1840 but one in Birmingham and the other in Liverpool. And no guarantee that WILLIAMS was the husband as there are numerous marriages for each page. I don't really think either of these would be what we are after in any case. See how you go with that lot. PS - I KNOW - read notes properly before responding You already had the baptism of Grace DOWNING.
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Post by gandolf on Nov 29, 2008 19:04:08 GMT -5
I did some more poking around and found the following research from Bill Curnow on a bulletin board: listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/CORNISH-GEN/2003-01/1041891231Although I haven't checked it all, the info re Nancy Bennetts Pickersgill does check out. In any event I am aware from other members on this site that Bill Curnow's research is generally quite reliable. Given the above information from Bill Curnow, there is nowhere in the Pickersgill family that the Dunn name could come from other than perhaps Nancy Bennett Pickersgill's grandmother (whose surname is unknown at this time). George Patrick Rosmore D DOWNING - his fourth initial suggests that his fourth name "could" have been Dunn. His middle names of Patrick and Rosmore are not particurlary Cornish, and to my mind suggest either Irish or Scottish heritage. Indeed Dunn is also not a particulary Cornish name, and again also suggests the possibility of out of county origins - perhaps Irish or Scottish again? Strangely, at this stage I cannot find any evidence of either the Pickersgill family or George Patrick Rosmore D Downing in the census records for Cornwall. Add all the above about the Dunn name and the fact that Henry Downing was a seaman, I wonder whether perhaps he may have been of Irish or Scottish origins. His being a seaman could explain his "disappearance" - either lost at sea or perhaps returned to his country of origin?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 30, 2008 6:12:32 GMT -5
Have a look at, and a think about, this. The 'unreadable' 1851 Census entry:- Bailey's Lane, St Ives Anne B WILLIAMS, wife, mar., 49, mariner's wife, Cornwall St Ives Georgeiana B DUNNE, daur-in-law, unm., 17, school mistress, Cornwall St Ives I have just viewed this on an Image of the Original Census Form and it is, although difficult, relatively clear - clear enough for me to be able to make it out. And also - the transcriber of this page also read the name as DUNNE and the relationship as 'daur-in-law'. Anne is not mentioned s 'head' but rather as 'wife' so everything in this entry relates to her absent husband. the mariner WILLIAMS. The recording of Georgeiana as 'daur-in-law' is therefore somewhat significant. But if she were Anne's daughter, as seems to be the case, then why is her surname DUNNE. Cleary - she is not directly related to Mr WILLIAMS. So, did Anne have yet another marriage between tht to Henry DOWNING and when she married the unknown WILLIAMS? Or was Georgiana perhaps an illegitimate daughter born between the demise of Henry and Anne's marriage to WILLIAMS? With Georgiana's reference at marriage to her father being George Patrick DUNN the suggestion is certainly there that she may have been an illegitimate child. The only thing that I am not 'absolutely' certain of in the entry is the middle initial for both Anne and Georgiana. However, it is clearly not a 'D' and the shape in each case suggests the probability of 'B'. In Anne's case this is probably correct given she was baptised as Ann Bennatts PICKERSGILL. Although the two letters are slightly different there is enough to suggest, particularly when comparing with other letters on the page, that it is 'B' in both cases. Back to you for perusal and cogitation. CT
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