Which Elizabeth Quick m. which James Quick??

[gandolf]

After chasing this one around for several hours, I am now thoroughly confused and hoping our resident experts can shed some light.

I have found the following siblings:
Elizabeth Quick chr. 29 Nov 1812 St. Ives
James Quick chr. 8 Mar 1813 St. Ives

I have both of these as children of Robert Quick (1776-aft.1851) and Elizabeth Stevens (1779- ?bef. 1841)

My problem relates to the marriage of Elizabeth Quick to James Quick at St. Ives on 15 Jan 1837.

James and Elizabeth have the following children:
James Quick chr. 19 Nov 1837 St. Ives
Robert Quick born circa 1841

Given the name of Robert for their second son, I believe that Robert is a grandson of Robert & Elizabeth Quick, and that either James or Elizabeth is their child. The other spouse (either James or Elizabeth depending on who is the child of Robert & Elizabeth) is presumably yet another cousin of some kind given the Quick surname.

My problem is that I don't know which - the ages on the census would allow either one to be Robert & Elizabeth's child.

I thought I had it sorted for a while - Robert's daughter Elizabeth marrying James, son of Israel & Frances Quick - until I realised that Israel's son James actually married Elizabeth Major not Elizabeth Quick.

Is someone able to shed some light here and put me out of my misery before I go completely mad?

[Deleted]

Good morning Gandolf

As always CT is the expert. But surprisingly I was looking at this same family last night as I am slowly put all my census data into my genealogy programme, trying to eliminate all the known ones and leave me with the unknown.

Initially I also made the same mistake with James the son of Israel but the child Richard Major clears that up.

I left myself thinking that James, the son of James and Robert (1838 & 1842) was the son of Robert Quick and Elizabeth Trenerry. Part of my thinking for this is that both adults were carpenters/joiners.

Saying that I have not entered any of this data yet (my eyes wouldn't stay open) and I could not find an entry for Robert (1842) in FreeBMD.

Lannanta

[Deleted]

And that is because Robert is only aged 2 years in the 1851 census and not 9!!

One child 13 and one 2 - maybe two mothers?

Lannanta

[gandolf]

Nov 15, 2008 16:01:27 GMT -5 @lannanta said:

And that is because Robert is only aged 2 years in the 1851 census and not 9!!

One child 13 and one 2 - maybe two mothers?

Lannanta

Hi Lannanta. I suspect you are using "A..y" for your lookups, rather than FreeCensus.

It appears that there is a transcription error somewhere. On FreeCensus, young Robert is recorded as 9 in 1851. Are you saying that you find him recorded as 2?

Have just double checked against FreeBMD. The only Robert Quicks born in Penzance R.D. between 1840-1850 are:

QUICK Robert Sep 1849 Penzance 9 170
QUICK Robert Mar 1850 Penzance 9 195

The first Robert would seem to be the son of John & Mary Quick at Brega, Towednack - appearing as age 1 year on the 1851 Census

The second Robert would seem to be the son of Israel & Mary Quick at Beagleton, Towednack - appearing as age 3 months on the 1851 Census

Like you, I cannot find Robert's birth on FreeBDM. Not conclusive, as there are possible explanations as to why he would not appear (not registered, poor/missed indexing, etc).

[gandolf]

I should add that I originally thought that Mary Quick chr. 6 Apr 1810 at St. Ives (sister of Elizabeth Quick chr. 29 Nov 1812 St. Ives) had married to a Thomas Trevan based on the fact that on the 1841 census Mary & Elizabeth's father Robert appears with the Trevan family.

Trevan seemed like it should be a corruption of Trevena, however I could not find the family on later censuses.

I eventually found Thomas & Mary and family on 1851, 1861 and 1871 censuses as Trevorrow. Comparing marriage records and adding the fact that son William appears on the 1871 census as William U Trevorrow, it seems clear that Thomas's wife Mary was actually Mary Uren.

Therefore it is clear that Robert Quick was simply boarding with the family in 1841.

Now there is an entry in 1841 that just might be Robert's wife and son:

Piece: HO107/144/6 Place: Penwith -Cornwall Enumeration District: 6
Civil Parish: St. Ives Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 23 Page: 10
Address: Fore Street
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUICK Elizabeth F 60 Cornwall
QUICK Paul M 30 White Smith Cornwall
QUICK Margery F 25 Dress Maker Cornwall


This is just up the road from Robert in the same census:

Piece: HO107/144/6 Place: Penwith -Cornwall Enumeration District: 6
Civil Parish: St. Ives Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 25 Page: 15
Address: Fore Street
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUICK Robert M 65 Joiner Cornwall
(Also "Trevan" - ie Trevorrow - family and an Elizabeth Nichole)


Elizabeth is the right age to be Robert's wife, Paul is the right age to be their son, and they are living in the same street as Robert.

The first problem is explaining Margery - I can't find a family of Quicks that has a Margery at all, let alone the right age so presumably she is the wife of Paul. However, I can't find a marriage at this stage.

Second problem is that Paul seems to disappear by 1851 so making it more difficult to prove a related family for him.

Final problem is that if Elizabeth is the wife of Robert, there needs to be an explanation as to why they are living apart rather than together. If they were in different villages that is easy, but somewhat harder when they are only a few doors apart in the same street.

[gandolf]

I should add that I eventually discovered that Mary Quick, daughter of Robert married to Arthur Rosewall and had at least four children (all at St. Ives):
Arthur Rosewall b & d 1837
Arthur Rosewall b 1839 (apparently went to Australia)
Mary Quick Rosewall b 1841 d. 1899 (unmarried)
Sampson Rosewall b. 1849

The Arthur who went to Australia placed the headstone on his parents and sister's joint grave at Barnoon. The curious part is he mentions his brother Sampson stating he died at Hammersmith, London on 25 Feb 1881 at age 45 However there is no record of a death in FreeBDM that could possibly be him!

I did find a Sampson T. Rosewall age 30 as a lodger at 7 Blacks Rd, London, Middlesex on the 1881 census. He was a commercial clerk, and born at St. Ives so this fits with Sampson's birth in 1849.

Blacks Rd is clearly in Hammersmith, since the Hammersmith tube station is only 100 metres away, so this also fits with where Arthur has him living.

But it is apparent that the date of death recorded by Arthur for his brother Sampson must be wrong. The date of death is before the date of the census, and dead people don't normally appear on a census of the living! ;D

[Cornish Terrier]

Another Fine Mess - Gentlemen! ;D

Let's see if uncle CT can sort it out for you.

I have found the following siblings:
Elizabeth Quick chr. 29 Nov 1812 St. Ives
James Quick chr. 8 Mar 1813 St. Ives

Gandolf - first part of the solution is that these are not siblings.

In fact these two grow up to become husband and wife.

James bp. 8th March 1813 s/o Robert and Elizabeth (nee TRENERRY)

Elizabeth bp. 29th November 1812 d/o Robert and Elizabeth (nee STEVENS)

The Robert who married Elizabeth TRENERRY was the son of Robert QUICK and Mary (nee THOMAS)

They baptised daughter Elizabeth Thomas QUICK at St Ives 1st April 1804.

28th November 1827 John MICHELL married Elizabeth Thomas QUICK at St Ives.

Have just double checked against FreeBMD. The only Robert Quicks born in Penzance R.D. between 1840-1850 are:

QUICK Robert Sep 1849 Penzance 9 170
QUICK Robert Mar 1850 Penzance 9 195

The first Robert would seem to be the son of John & Mary Quick at Brega, Towednack - appearing as age 1 year on the 1851 Census

The second Robert would seem to be the son of Israel & Mary Quick at Beagleton, Towednack - appearing as age 3 months on the 1851 Census

Problem number 2 - and a solution.

Firstly - the 1851 Census (Image of the Original) clearly shows James age 13 and Robert age 2.

The second Robert you show here cannot be the son of Israel and Mary if he was shown as 3 months on the 1851 Census.

Note that the birth here is registered in the March Qtr of 1850!

So this second one will be the son of John and Mary and, therefore, age 1 at the 1851 Census.

The first Robert is certainly the son of James and Elizabeth whose children (that I am aware of) are as follows:-

James bp. 19th November 1837
Robert bp. 29th July 1849
Elizabeth Jane bp. 29th July 1849
Betsy Trenerry born 15th April 1852 and bp. 9th May 1852

Note that Robert and Elizabeth Jane are baptised on the same day.
Yet in FreeBMD Elizabeth Jane is registered in the June Qtr and Robert in the September Qtr.

I cannot find a Death record for Elizabeth Jane although there are a couple of Elizabeths regd. in 1849 and 1850.

At this stage I do not know what happened to James, Robert or Elizabeth Jane.

In 1861 Elizabeth had only Betsy T with her.

I do know that James (b. 1813) died at Ballarat in 1884 so perhaps the sons were in Australia also. (Elizabeth died at St Ives in 1869.)

I cannot find the family in 1841 at the moment but that may simply be the way the name was transcribed.

I should add that I originally thought that Mary Quick chr. 6 Apr 1810 at St. Ives (sister of Elizabeth Quick chr. 29 Nov 1812 St. Ives) had married to a Thomas Trevan based on the fact that on the 1841 census Mary & Elizabeth's father Robert appears with the Trevan family

This Mary (d/o Robert and Elizabeth nee TRENERRY) married Arthur ROSEWALL at St Ives

GANDOLF - Just for You !

Arthur was the son of John and Catherine (nee QUICK) ROSEWALL

Amongst his siblings were brothers George and James.

George married Mary QUICK 1st November 1830 at St Ives

(Not sure yet but she looks like being the daughter of James and Susanna (LEE) QUICK)

James married Catherine QUICK 28th April 1851 at St Ives
(d/o Andrew and Elizabeth (STEVENS) QUICK)

William U Trevorrow, it seems clear that Thomas's wife Mary was actually Mary Uren.

Thomas TREVORROW married Mary UREN 15th December 1832 at St Ives

Before I continue - Let's remember that we are now dealing with TWO Robert Quicks who each married an Elizabeth.

The husband of Elizabeth STEVENS was buried at St Ives 30th March 1855.

The husband of Elizabeth TRENERRY was buried at St Ives 17th February 1822.

Now I will take a look at the 1841 Census entry for you.

Piece: HO107/144/6 Place: Penwith -Cornwall Enumeration District: 6
Civil Parish: St. Ives Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 23 Page: 10
Address: Fore Street
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUICK Elizabeth F 60 Cornwall
QUICK Paul M 30 White Smith Cornwall
QUICK Margery F 25 Dress Maker Cornwall

EASY

The name is NOT Margery is the simple answer.

I had a look at the image of the original and magnified it to confirm my suspicion.

There is no 'g' in that name! And the name is, in fact, NANNY!

This is ANN d/o Robert and Elizabeth and, therefore, sister to Paul.

Now the question of Robert being 'up the road'.

Might be as simple as that being the place he happened to be when the enumerator called and he might well have been hom later that evening.

Often you will see double-enumerations in a case like this - but not always I suspect.

Paul seems to disappear by 1851 so making it more difficult to prove a related family for him

There are two Paul Quicks dying between 1841 and 1851 - one in 1842 and one in 1844.

The one in 1844 was the 22-year-old son if Israel and Sally.

I do not, as yet, know which Paul Quick died in 1842 but there must be a fair chance that it was the son of Robert and Elizabeth.

Best we do some checking overseas also - I will take a look at Victoria and South Australia as soon as I have made yet another cup of coffee.

Should I find him I will post it in another note.

Hope that solves your problems. ;D

[Deleted]

Gandolf

When I first recorded young Roberts age in the 1851 census I also had him aged 9 years and I took it from the Free Census of Cornwall. But looking at an image of the actual census James is clearly 13 and Robert is clearly (well to me anyway) 2.

I also noted your query re Margery. Looking at that entry it would appear that the name is Nanny (smallest chance of Mary but definitely not Margery), which reinforces your theory as Elizabeth did have a daughter Ann, bap 1815.

With respect to Robert being down the road a bit on census night, could he have been just a visitor? Looking also at that entry, the lines marking the start and finish of each house are a bit unclear. Robert with a double line beside his name is definitely the last recorded in the household. But the person immediately above him has a single line beside her name which I thought was the start of the household, but perhaps maybe not in this case. But this person is Mary Trevorrow and she is 70, rounded. It would be good for an experienced person with the census to have a look.

Finally you say that the birth entry on March quarter 1850 would have a young Robert 3 months old at the 1851 census. I think the 3 month old would be the Robert born in the March quarter of 1851 - Penzance 9 - 222. I am suggesting that the 2 year old Robert is the one from 1849.

Just a bit of food for thought.

Lannanta

[Deleted]

Bugger - CT types faster than I do

[Deleted]

In my recent sojourn to Cornwall I saw this inscription at Barnoon.

"Elizabeth Quick, March 1869, aged 55 years. also James, died at Ballarat, Australia (don't mention the cricket) 30 Dec 1884. also daughter Betsey Trenerry Quick born 15/4/1852, died 25/2/1940."

CT, I think that I also have the children of the two Roberts/Elizabeths a bit muddled.

Lannanta

[Deleted]

Hello CT

Nothing is simple eh?

They baptised daughter Elizabeth Thomas QUICK at St Ives 1st April 1804.

28th November 1827 John MICHELL married Elizabeth Thomas QUICK at St Ives.

If the above is correct, and I have a copy of the marriage entry also, then who was the Elizabeth Thomas Quick, aged seven years, buried at St Ives on the 27th January 1811.

With respect to the two Roberts and Elizabeths:-

I have the following - Robert and Elizabeth Trenerry (call this couple Tren) married at St Ives on the 17th February 1803. Therefore the first three children - Elizabeth Thomas, Robert (died as a baby) and Thomas must be theirs.

Then Robert Quick married Elizabeth Stevens (call this couple Stev) on the 3rd January 1807. Therefore the next two children, both Roberts are shared one apiece.

Next comes Paul, baptised 19/11/1809 (Tren), so when Mary baptised 6/4/1810 came along I put her with (Stev) due to the closeness of the two baptisms.

Elizabeth (Stev) and the last three - James, Ann & Wilmot (Tren).

The husband of Elizabeth STEVENS was buried at St Ives 30th March 1855.

The husband of Elizabeth TRENERRY was buried at St Ives 17th February 1822.

If this is correct I certainly have all my children mucked up.

Lannanta

[gandolf]

Please ignore the whirring sound that you can hear at the moment... It is just the sound of my head spinning in a way that would make Sybil from the Exorcist jealous The sound will go away when the men in white coats arrive to take me for a holiday in a lovely quiet padded cell.

mutter, mutter.. I seem to remember someone saying that the Eddy clan make the Quicks seem easy.. mutter mutter... don't know how since it seems that not even the Quicks would be able to sort out their relationships without a road map!

Talk about keeping it in the family, did a Quick descendant ever marry someone who was not a relative?.

An extreme example is the one I was looking at last night:
James Quick (1766-1839) m. Elizabeth Quick (1766-1847) - 3rd cousins
their daughter
Mary Quick (1803-?) m. James Quick (1797 - ?) - 2nd cousins
their daughter
Mary Quick (1826-1908) m. John Quick (1829-1855) - 1st cousins

It is a wonder that John & Mary's son Sir John Quick was able to even feed himself, let alone be a shining light in pre-Federation politics in Australia!

[gandolf]

Thank you "Uncle" CT for your kind benevolence.
Your "nephews" and "nieces" continue to be amazed at your knowledge of the arcane and confusing body of knowledge that some more elightened souls have started calling "the Quick Family"!

Nov 15, 2008 21:06:28 GMT -5 Cornish Terrier said:

I have found the following siblings:
Elizabeth Quick chr. 29 Nov 1812 St. Ives
James Quick chr. 8 Mar 1813 St. Ives

Gandolf - first part of the solution is that these are not siblings.

In fact these two grow up to become husband and wife.

James bp. 8th March 1813 s/o Robert and Elizabeth (nee TRENERRY)

Elizabeth bp. 29th November 1812 d/o Robert and Elizabeth (nee STEVENS)

The scary part is that at one point last night during the course of trying to sort out this mess I had even briefly considered the possibility based on ages in the censuses that it looked like James and Elizabeth had married.

However (perhaps because it was late at night) I couldn't see how as for some reason I had missed the fact that there was another Robert & Elizabeth Quick having kids in St. Ives at that time.

CT, Lannanta
Both right (of course) re my mistake about calculated ages for the Robert Quicks born late 1840's. Apparently I can't add up correctly until I have had at least one coffee in the morning!

[gandolf]

Nov 15, 2008 21:06:28 GMT -5 Cornish Terrier said:

Gandolf - first part of the solution is that these are not siblings.

In fact these two grow up to become husband and wife.

James bp. 8th March 1813 s/o Robert and Elizabeth (nee TRENERRY)

Elizabeth bp. 29th November 1812 d/o Robert and Elizabeth (nee STEVENS)

The Robert who married Elizabeth TRENERRY was the son of Robert QUICK and Mary (nee THOMAS)

CT, something to ponder on.

Don't have a problem with James & Elizabeth being siblings.

That Robert & Elizabeth (Trenerry) Quick had a son James is proven by his death record in Victoria in 1844 (by the way the fact that the parents are correctly recorded suggests that one or more of the kids was probably also in Victoria at the time - although at a glance can't see any evidence for any of them).

However I think we may have a problem. Surely both Robert Quick seniors were not joiner/carpenters?

James Quick's baptism in 1813 gives his father's occupation as Joiner.

Ann Quick in 1815 and Wilmot Quick in 1817, who we all seem to be agreed are the children of Robert & Eizabeth (Stephens) Quick also have their father's occupation as Joiner

This would mean that not only did two Robert's marry two Elizabeths, but that both were Joiners! Seems just too co-incidental for my liking.

[Cornish Terrier]

Lannanta - your latest has caused me to think just a little here which is the last thing I really need at the moment.

However, I have been trying to go over all information relating to this problem and ensure that I have made no mistakes.

I know that I had good reasons for how I placed these families but I am not sure where the notes relating to that work are right now.

Your mention of the Elizabeth Thomas QUICK buried in 1811 also has me thinking because I have no record of her.

Anyway I will work through things again now and try some different angles to see if it all comes out the same.

For my own benefit here is a list of the children with baptism dates to work from:-

(Each will be copied to either TRENERRY or STEVENS below once I have decided on placement and an asterisk placed beside the name on this list.)

* Elizabeth Thomas bp. 1st April 1804
* Robert bp. 25th October 1805 - bu. 30th December 1806
* Thomas bp. 15th August 1806
* Robert bp. 20th December 1807
* Robert bp. 24th June 1808
* Paul bp. 19th November 1809
* Mary bp. 6th April 1810
* Elizabeth bp. 29th November 1812
* James bp. 8th March 1813
* Ann bp. 26th May 1815
* Wilmot bp. 9th February 1817 - bu. 13th March 1822

A NOTE on the marriages:-

My understanding is that the Robert who married Elizabeth STEVENS was bp. 27th February 1776 at Towednack s/o Robert and Anne (nee MICHELL).

And daughter Elizabeth Thomas 'seems' to indicate that her father was the son of Robert and Mary (nee THOMAS).

Provided I have that correct then the rest should flow.

Okay - let's start with James.

He was definitely the son of Elizabeth TRENERRY.

Victorian Pioneers Index - Deaths
James quick age 72 died 1884 Reg. 11281
Father - Robert
Mother - Elizabeth TRENERRY

Cut and dried.

Elizabeth Thomas, Robert and Thomas 'must' go under TRENERRY purely because they were baptised before 1807.

Elizabeth must to with STEVENS by virtue of the fact that she married James .

From the 1841 Census we know that Paul and Ann must be siglings.
Robert of Towednack was the son of ANN and also had a brother named PAUL whereas there was neither an Ann nore a Paul in the family of Robert and Mary (nee THOMAS).
Therefore Paul and Ann go to STEVENS.

Mary is unlikely to be a sibling to Paul as they were baptised only five months apart and, in addition, Robert (TREN) was the son of Mary so I suggest Mary must belong under TRENERRY.

Wilmot is a name also occurring in the family of Robert (STEV) and she was also buried at Towednack in 1822 so I think she belongs as a sister to Paul.

This leaves us with the two Roberts and I think the earlier one (1807) probably belongs to STEVENS as their first child and he was also born in the same year as the marriage. (A little flimsy perhaps but ... )

TRENERRY m. 17th February 1803

Elizabeth Thomas bp. 1st April 1804
Robert bp. 25th October 1805 - bu. 30th December 1806
Thomas bp. 15th August 1806
Robert bp. 24th June 1808
Mary bp. 6th April 1810
James bp. 8th March 1813

STEVENS m. 3rd January 1807

Robert bp. 20th December 1807
Paul bp. 19th November 1809
Elizabeth bp. 29th November 1812
Ann bp. 26th May 1815
Wilmot bp. 9th February 1817 - bu. 13th March 1822

That is the way I see the two families at the moment so I will leave it with you to ponder for a while.

I have a couple of other points niggling at me but I will think about those once this is posted and then relay my thoughts in a following message.

CT