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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 24, 2023 0:00:33 GMT -5
Hmmm, I am more inclined to think that Bennett/Benedict might have been a brother or, perhaps, cousin to Thomas Harvey of the 1665 Will. Benedict's own Will was proved at Madron in 1673 and at that time he had six living children AND a grandson named Richard. In addition I think it was also Bennett/Benedict's son Thomas who married Temperance sometime before 1676 when son Thomas was baptised at Gulval (27th August 1676). Thomas himself left a Will which was proved at Gulval 17th September 1678.
Thomas was first named in his father's Will but he was clearly unmarried at the time given the phrase 'if he chance to marrye a wife' at the end of details of his bequest. The final bequest by Benedict was to grandson Richard Harvye which suggests Thomas may not have been the eldest son but it is possible that he married quite late.
With one known Harvey grandson (assuming he was not the illegitimate child of a daughter) Benedict Harvey had at least one married son at the time of writing his Will. There is no indication any of the daughters were married but, as with Thomas Harvey and daughter Deborah, that was not necessarily the case. And son Thomas married sometime between 1672 and 1676 then died in 1678 so it is reasonable to consider that there were at least two sons born potentially prior to 1650. (BTW Temperance, wife of Thomas Harvey, was buried at Madron 12th April 1701)
Based on those few considerations I should think Benedict Harvey had to have been married no later than about 1650 and therefore must have been born well before 1630 thus supporting my thoughts that he was more likely to have been a brother or cousin to Thomas Harvey of 1665 rather than a nephew.
CT
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Post by zibetha on Nov 24, 2023 8:17:11 GMT -5
As always Ct, I respect the depth of your research. I was a badminton champion on a small level after learning the game in the north woods of the USA. Will continue to toss my questions back and forth.
Game on -- no one loses
Zib
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 24, 2023 11:31:54 GMT -5
I am not claiming that I am 100% correct with my summation but that is certainly how it looks to me. As I keep saying - when it comes to links to Francis Harvey of Breage nothing seems to stack up! Keep flicking the bird over the net to me and I will keep trying to come up with answers. Sooner or later the pieces of the puzzle will begin to fit together in a more orderly fashion. Been trying to find answers to some Batten problems as well so that I can offer a more conclusive solution to some recent questions. Just discovered that one line with family in Madron and Surrey were not Battens at all! They were supposedly born at Wendron to a Francis BATTEN but I have now discovered the surname started off as PATTIN!!! The sons at least decided to change the name. Took me a few hours working through FS, Ancestry and local PRs before I managed to figure that one out!! CT
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Post by zibetha on Nov 24, 2023 22:31:07 GMT -5
I will toss up the birdie and hope other cousins join in on the game. I am working on the Samuel Harveys and the Peters and Bennet/Benedicts. I seem to connect further back than Rev Francis while connected on his wife's side. DNA-wise I seem to mostly match descendants of John Harvey 1643 who I have married to a wife Alice while you have suggested a Catherine. No problem, that does not tilt my grid.
55 years ago,my parents were building our house, and my mother asked her parents to come and get me for 2 weeks at the end of Summer until they came "up" North for Labor Day weekend. Running hot water is a good thing. It was during that visit that my grandfather told me about his. I don't think we knew about Great-great's second family, but that is now known and DNA confirmed.
Zib
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 25, 2023 1:38:37 GMT -5
Interesting comment. I have what I think is your John Harvey with wife Alice (probably Shutford/Shetford) married at St Buryan 28th June 1673. For this John I have father Samuel whose Will was proved at St Buryan in 1684. Siblings for John (as I have them at the moment) are a sister Grace married to a John Thomas with at least a daughter Martha Thomas baptised at St Buryan in 1665. I then have a sister Mary married to John Man at St Buryan 29th January 1669 along with 6 children and finally I have a brother Richard married to Beaton at St Buryan 20th September 1684 along with five children (Catherine, Samuel, Richard, Mary and Grace). Then ................ I have John Harvey at Sennen who was probably the son of Thomas Harvey (Will 1664/5) and wife Alice. This John was named in his father's Will as was a sister - Joan. I believe this John Harvey had a wife named Catherine who was buried at St Buryan 2nd October 1686 'wife of John Harvey'. This is the John Harvey of 'Meane' buried at Sennen 14th May 1710 and I believe he and Catherine were probably the parents of the following:- 1. Katherine 'daughter of John Harvie of Zenning' who married Henry Penberthy at St Just 13th January 1705. (Catherine Penberthy widow was buried at St Just 30th November 1758.) 2. Christopher Harvey who married Honour Roberts of St Levan at Sennen 15th June 1706. I have nine children for this couple followed by the burial of 'Mr Christopher Harvey' at Sennen 10th August 1748. So there are two contemporaneous John Harveys in the adjoining Parishes of Sennen and St Buryan which may help to 'untilt the grid' a bit. CT
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Post by zibetha on Nov 25, 2023 2:17:36 GMT -5
Well I lost all of my post as Microsoft thinks itself wiser than I am interms of constructing sentences. I will be back
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Post by zibetha on Nov 25, 2023 2:59:11 GMT -5
delete my wifi was wacky
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Post by columb on Nov 28, 2023 12:25:03 GMT -5
Concerning the marriage of Rev Francis to Mary Yorke, I have looked at what FamilySearch has, just to check the date and I noticed that their marriage is recorded as in Wellington, Somerset in 1591. This jogged my memory. I have read somewhere ( can't remember where) that they were not married in Wellington, Somerset but in Wellington, Herefordshire. IIRC, Francis travelled to Wellington for some type of apprenticeship and whilst there met and married Mary who is recorded as having been born there. I have contacted Herefordshire Archive and Records Centre and asked them to do a search. I'll let you know what they come up with in due course.
Incidentally, FamilySearch suggest that Mary was buried in Phillack on 18th May 1607 so there seems to be a Phillack connection with this family.
columb
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 28, 2023 13:21:19 GMT -5
I really hate it when I read or hear the term 'FamilySearch suggest'! I would be thinking that if you are quoting correctly then that little piece of data may have been found somewhere in the 'member supplied information' sections of FamilySearch where lots and lots of 'not-so-goodies' can be found. I have just searched FamilySearch using the 'Records' tab and can find no such entry. I have also just had a close look at the Phillack Parish Register:- 1. there are just 6 burials for Phillack for the year 1607 2. those six burials match exactly those I found in FamilySearch 3. NOT ONE of those six burials is for anyone named Mary 4. NOT ONE of those six burials involves any variant spelling of the surname Harvey 5. there is NO BURIAL at all for the month of May 1607 Neither FamilySearch (Records) nor the OPC have any Mary Harvey (of any spelling) buried in 1607 in Cornwall. It would appear this may be another example of the 'make it up as you go along' game that I have seen many 'researchers' play over the years. AHA! - I believe I just found your source of the Mary Harvey information in FamilySearch. It is in the Family Tree section under the name of MARY YORKE. Although a few sources are quoted (1665 Will of Thomas Harvey, Pedigree of Christopher Harvey etc.) there is absolutely no source for the quoted burial except for 'family trees'. I have also had a look for Wellington, Herefordshire records but they are only available via FamilySearch at a Family History Library. Part of the volumes available include Marriages 1560-1695 and Baptisms 1559-1707 so if someone were able to get to see the Film at a FHC (and if the register is legible!!) then it is possible the marriage record and, possibly, baptisms of some Harvey children might be found. The Film No. is 1041615 Items 17-18. I had a look at Somerset records as well (they are available) and, as you indicated, there is no sign of the Francis Harvey marriage in that County. As a caution - when you find information that is from Ancestry Family Trees or from Family Trees in that section on FamilySearch, in fact information from any family tree it should be treated with extreme caution .................. UNLESS verifiable primary sources are quoted and can be checked. I hate to disillusion you but these 'false facts' have caused me no end of 'pain and misery' over the years. I keep getting queries with similar 'facts' and spend hours and sometimes days trying to track down sources only to find the 'facts' originated from someone's family tree and have no actual basis in recorded factual documentation. CT
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Post by columb on Dec 1, 2023 6:53:51 GMT -5
I have received a reply from Herefordshire Archive and Records Centre. They said:
"I searched the Wellington parish registers 1580- 1600 but there is no marriage between a Francis Harvey and a Mary York (and variant spellings)
I searched the Wellington register 1560- 1570 for a baptism of a Mary York and there was none".
Another dead end then!
columb
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Dec 1, 2023 9:00:04 GMT -5
At least that is another legitimate source checked. You might expect there 'could' be some element of fact 'somewhere' in the information that might lead to the truth. Unfortunately it seems that all that is happening so far with our investigations is undermining and dismantling every piece of the story we look at. That Francis Harvey studied and became a Clergyman seems clear enough and there is supporting evidence from the Breage burial register. There is also supporting evidence from the Breage registers that Francis was married and had at least two children whose baptisms are recorded at Breage. It is almost as certain that a daughter to 'Mr Francis Harvey' baptised at Phillack in 1592 is also a child of this same Francis Harvey. But there, it seems, end the actual facts!! All we can do is keep looking. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Dec 12, 2023 17:24:57 GMT -5
Whilst not directly connected to the discussions of recent times I have come across a curiosity that I think is worth noting - partially because I cannot quite work out how to interpret it. This relates to two sons from the marriage if Richard Harvey and Ann Hosking who married at St Just 1st December 1817. The two sons, Richard and William, married sisters Elizabeth and Mary Ann Chapel who were daughters of John Chapel and Alice Trenerry who married at Sennen 11th November 1815. Richard Harvey, the eldest of the Harvey boys, married Mary Ann Chapel at Sancreed 31st May 1841 William Harvey married Elizabeth Chapel also at Sancreed 2nd May 1846 The curiosity involves the following baptism:- Sancreed 29th May 1849 John son of William and Elizabeth Harvey of St Just, miner (It is important to note that John's birth was registered in the March Quarter of 1849!) John Harvey married Elizabeth Ann Prisk at Pendeen 12th October 1879 stating he was age 32, that he was then of Boscaswell and that he was the son of William Harvey a miner. All good so far ................. but that all changes when the Census records enter the equation! In 1851, 1861 and 1871 John Harvey is found with the family of Richard and Mary Ann Harvey and in each case he is recorded as 'son'!!! (And there is NO son named John in the family of William and Elizabeth Harvey during those same Census years ) That is all curious and interesting enough but .............. In the 1851 Census William and Elizabeth Harvey were living close to brother Richard and his family at Carn Bosavern in St Just. There were two children in the family at that time - William age 4 and Ellen age 2. In a later Census Ellen is recorded as 'Ellen S Harvey' I have not yet found a baptism record for Ellen it is most interesting to have a look at the Birth Registration for both John and Ellen from the GRO Index:- HARVEY, ELLEN SOPHIA CHAPPEL GRO Reference: 1849 M Quarter in PENZANCE UNION Volume 09 Page 227 HARVEY, JOHN CHAPPEL GRO Reference: 1849 M Quarter in PENZANCE UNION Volume 09 Page 233 When I first glanced at these and realized both were registered in the March Qtr it fleetingly crossed my mind that John and Ellen might have been twins and that for some reason John had been taken in by his uncle. But on closer inspection that seems unlikely given that twins 'normally', in my experience with the GRO Indexes, are allocated consecutive registration numbers. In this case there are FIVE registrations between the two which would indicate that the two children belong to different families. The fact that John was baptized as son of 'William and Elizabeth' could possibly have been a case of the Vicar getting mixed up with the two brothers but when John 30 years later states at marriage that his father was 'William' ................... For the record - I have recorded the baptismal information for John as written but have placed him in the family of Richard as per the Census entries. Likewise Ellen Sophia is with the family of William and Elizabeth for the same reason. CT
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Post by zibetha on Dec 15, 2023 21:58:16 GMT -5
Well, this, CT. I am experiencing some computer connection difficulties. To respond I have DNA connection to the Harvey/Chappell line that I have yet to understand via the paper trail but might link me to my Harvey family, I have placed the Chappell children as you have done via the Census records.
Zib
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Dec 16, 2023 7:24:23 GMT -5
Hi Zib - I was presuming you were still suffering some PC problems but thought it may still have been the issues with the mouse. Whatever is causing problems I hope it is resolved soon. When you are in a position to do so let me know what potential connections you have to this Harvey/Chappel family and I will see if I can add anything to help. I have spent much of the last couple of days working on the Roberts family of St Levan due to a Harvey connection which turns out to be be at least two Harvey/Roberts connections!! Had to chase Hosea Roberts all over the County but finally nailed him down and that led to many hours work that finally solved the Grace Harvey problem I began with. At issue was the identity of the Grace Harvey of Sennen age 85 buried at Sancreed in 1859. It took me ages to track her down when I initially began looking for her and just now it has taken me 15 or 20 minutes to find her in the Census again!!! ................. because her name was transcribed as HAWEY! (I had submitted a correction but it hasn't been processed yet.) Further complicating matters was that, in the 1851 Census, her birthplace was recorded as St Levan. She was then a widow and her age recorded as 75 and as it turned out that particular information was very close to correct. I eventually worked out that Grace was probably the widow of Samuel Harvey and was able to use the information in the marriage record to track her down. Samuel Harvey of Sancreed yeoman and Grace Roberts of St Levan spinster married at St Levan 12th May 1804 with Richard Harvey and Hosea Roberts as witnesses. As it turned out the reason I had not been able to find a baptism for Grace was that she was actually baptized at FALMOUTH daughter of Hosea Roberts and his second wife Ann Grieve who married at Lamorran in 1774. Hosea's first marriage took place at Saint Botolph, Aldgate, London in 1757 when he married Elizabeth James of Helston!! With the aid of some Deanery of St Buryan and PCC Wills I have no managed to piece together most of the 18th Century Roberts family of St Levan. I still need to work on the earlier Wills to complete the family but the rest into the early part of the 19th Century is looking good now. Once I started working through Hosea Roberts and his family I found another Harvey connection. Hosea was the son of a Thomas Roberts who left a Will at St Levan in 1779 as did several of Hosea's siblings with the Will of spinster sister Sarah Roberts in 1812 proving the most helpful. Thomas Roberts was married twice - first wife and marriage cannot be found but the combination of the information from the Wills of Thomas and daughter Sarah support the fact that there were two marriages. The second marriage was at St Levan 29th April 1744 when Thomas Roberts married Jane Harvey with available records suggesting she can only have been the daughter of Peter Harvey baptised at Sancreed 29th September 1712. One Ancestry tree suggests the first wife of Thomas Roberts was a Grace Baynard but gives no further details and no supporting evidence and unless I can track down a Baynard Will that might help then I cannot prove it one way or another. The children of Thomas from 1725 to 1729 were all baptized at Penzance and thereafter they were baptized at St Levan so those should be the most likely places to look for possible burials. At Penzance there are burials in 1738 for a Dorothy Roberts, Elizabeth Roberts in 1739 or Mary Roberts in 1743 whilst at St Levan there is a Grace Roberts in 1738 or a Jone Roberts in 1743 but with Sarah being the only daughter prior to the marriage to Jane Harvey then none of those really seem likely. The only other clue to suggest the first wife 'might' have been named Grace is that sons Joseph, Hosea and William all named daughters Grace. That is something to pursue another day methinks!! CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Dec 16, 2023 7:40:59 GMT -5
BINGO!! Before getting away from the PC and seeking sustenance I decided to have one quick check of Kresen Kernow to see if there might be any Baynard Wills that could be useful. I found one for a Thomas Baynard at Madron in 1733 so decided to download it. The fourth item reads:- Ittem I give & bequeath unto my daughter Grace ye wife of Thomas Roberts ye sume of five shellings to be paid her six months after my desese by my Executor here after namedHe also left five shillings to sons-in-law Thomas Roberts and William Williams. So there is another part of the mystery solved ............ just finding when and where the marriage took place remains a challenge!! CT
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