|
Post by columb on Feb 9, 2023 11:36:12 GMT -5
Hi everyboby,
My name is Steve Harvey, living in Cornwall and I'm a direct descendant of the many Harveys from Penwith as far back as Sir Anthony Hervey (sic) who was, I think, the first to come to Cornwall in about 1560. Perhaps someone can confirm this.
|
|
|
Post by spikeharwood on Feb 9, 2023 15:47:48 GMT -5
Hi Steve, and welcome to the forum. According to Bernard Deacon's book Surnames of Cornwall, Harvey was most likely a Breton personal name and that it was found widely in Cornwall in the 1500's "both in parishes where Breton migrants were numerous and in others in mid and east Cornwall where they were not." So methinks many Harveys were there before Sir Anthony. If you've proved a link back to him that settles that, otherwise Bob's your uncle!
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 10, 2023 5:09:03 GMT -5
Hi Steve and Welcome to Penwith Genealogy. I have never dealt with Harveys that early but I do have Harveys in my database and happy to help with any queries you may have. CT
|
|
|
Post by columb on Feb 10, 2023 8:55:59 GMT -5
Hello Spike, In my family tree, which goes back a very long way, the first mention of the name was Herve de Leon 920-1000 AD. Herve was his given name but in subsequent generations it became a surname, variously spelt. Leon is in Aquitaine, south of Bordeaux. His great-great grandson named Herverus came over to England with William The Conquerer in 1066. He was rewarded with a great deal of land around Suffolk. Here, the Harveys thrived for generations and still live there today. William Hervey 1462-1538 was born, married and died in Suffolk, however, his son Anthony was born in Northumberland and it was he who made the epic journey to Cornwall in about 1560. There is a great story as to why he left the north but that's for another time. It is quite possible that other descendents of the Suffolk family came to Cornwall at about the same time or even earlier but I have yet to see any evidence. Sir Anthony as he became, moved to Breage near Helston and is buried in Exeter Cathedral. His son, Rev Francis Harvey 1562-1607 was the first to spell his name with an A rather than an E. If anyone can shed light on other Harvey families moving to Cornwall, I'd love to know.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 11, 2023 0:50:11 GMT -5
The Cornwall Online Parish Clerk database shows 114 baptisms for variations of the name 'Harvey) from 1560 to (and including) 1600. The earliest of these was Anne daughter of Willm Harvye baptised at Phillack in 1560.
The first recorded child of a Francis was also at Phillack when Mary daughter of Mr Francis Harvye was baptised in 1692. Thereafter there are baptisms to Francis for sons Timothie Hervy at Breage in 1599 and Tytus Hervy at Breage in 1600. These appear to be the only children baptised to a Francis up to 1650.
Also at Phillack in 1572, 1579 and 1583 four children were baptised to a Bennett Harvye but other than that all other Harvey (sic.) baptisms took places in Parishes farther East - St Minver, Marhamchurch, St Columb Minor, St Mellion, Bodmin, St Stephen by Launceston, Withiel, Menheniot and others. In 1583 we see the first baptism West of Phillack when Edward Hervye baptised son Richard at Sancreed. And then in 1598 a Paskowe Harvye began baptising children at Towednack.
As not all records survive and many that do survive are damaged to varying degrees it is quite likely there were other Harvey (sic.) events in the Western part of Cornwall.
The earliest West Cornwall burial I can find in the OPC records is that of an, Edward? Harvy at Camborne in 1568 and then John Harvye (possibly son of Paskowe) at Towednack in 1599.
As for marriages - the earliest in the Western part of Cornwall was 1597 and 1599 when there were two male Harvie marriages at Feock. It was not until 1605 when Richard Hervy married Mary Teague that another male marriage West of Feock appears in the OPC records. But there was one female marriages prior to 1600 at Breage when Richard Stephin married Grace Hervy in 1573.
CT
|
|
|
Post by zibetha on Feb 12, 2023 22:54:20 GMT -5
My own search of Harvey family originsis is halted at Martin Harvey, my 5th great-grandfather, who I believe was baptized in 1738 to Marin and Alice at St Buryan. I have lost comminication with a branch in Austrailia due to a compuuter crash. The idea was that our line was traced back to an Osbert Harvey circa 1230?. I have not been able to resolve or make that that connection.
What I do have are DNA connections linking me to the Harveys at St B and Onesephorous Harvey who was rumored to have sent a packet of jewels to the Tower of London and perhaps/likely to be the same who appeared in the USA - Southern states.
For what it's worth.
Zib
|
|
|
Post by columb on Feb 13, 2023 14:47:54 GMT -5
CT, Thank you for your obvious extensive research into this. I must conclude that "my" Anthony was almost certainly not the first Harvey to arrive in Cornwall as Anne Harvye being baptised in Phillack in 1560 was clearly nothing to do with him. As far as I know, none of my family were ever in that area of Cornwall. That said, 1560 is my guess based on the fact that his son Francis was born in Breage in 1562. I haven't seen any true records but I'm informed that Rev Francis had seven children born in Cornwall between 1594 and 1606. This just might indicate some understandable shortcomings in the Cornwall Online Parish Clerk database.
Zibetha, I think you are almost there as to finding out where you came from. Onesiphorous was the third son of John Hervey 1643-1710 and Alice Davies 1652-1710. John was my 6th paternal great grandfather. Osbert was my 18th paternal great grandfather.If you have a link to Onesiphorous, your family tree will go back way beyond 1230. Perhaps to before 100 AD.
|
|
|
Post by columb on Feb 14, 2023 6:21:32 GMT -5
Zibetha, After a bit of trawling, I have found out a bit about your 5th great-grandfather Martin. He was baptized 20 August 1738. His wife might have been Willmott Clements (not sure) His parents were: Martin and Alice Harvey born/baptized 1707 and 1715 respectively. His parents were: Martin and Elizabeth Dennis 1664-1719 and 1670-? They were married at St Buryan 4 May 1698. His parents were: Peter and Grace Harvey 1618-1688 and 1625-? His father was: Bennett Harvey No dates or other details but almost certainly born in the late 1500s
Here the trail stops. (for now)
Incidently, my Harvey ancestors were living in Sennen during this period which is just 4 miles west of St Buryan.
|
|
|
Post by columb on Feb 14, 2023 7:09:25 GMT -5
Spike, Further to my last of 10th Feb, after further research, I've found a district called Leon in the very northwest of Brittany. It is just north of Cornouaille. Herve de Leon 920-1000AD (full name Herve Even de Leon) would have lived there rather than at the Leon in Aquitaine since his 3rd great-grandfather came from Cornouaille and his 4th great-grandfather was King of Cornouaille. It seems then that Bernard Deacon was correct.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 14, 2023 9:28:42 GMT -5
Steve - I have a few issues with some of your conclusions/comments/facts? as quoted in recent posts so I suggest we proceed cautiously given the era to which those details pertain are rather lacking in documented evidence. To qualify that comment I should note that if there is evidence to support what you have posted then I am not aware of it. I believe I have recently posted that Parish Registers and other documents for the Parishes of St Buryan, St Levan and Sennen are rather lacking. The earliest records, with the exception of some Wills/Admons, for St Levan and Sennen appear to be almost non-extant prior to 1697-1700. In the case of St Buryan the earliest surviving Parish Registers date from 1653 and of those it is not until you get to the 1718-1812 register that any consitency in legible records can be found. The earlier records (of which I do have copies) are extremely difficult to read and are water-damaged and fragmented in large parts. The register from 1718-1812 is the most legible but even that can be difficult. And this now brings me to a comment from your latest:- I believe your are correct about Martin Harvey's baptism date and his wife was Wilmot Clements(sic.) but from that point on (i.e. backwards) is where I have issues. Firstly - I have found more than one possibility for a baptism for the elder Martin Harvey - He may have been baptised at St Buryan in 1692 son of Peter and Jane Harvey or in 1695 at St Buryan son of Martin and Catherine Harvey or at St Buryan in 1706 son of Martin Harvey. In the 1706 event no mother's name is recorded so he could have been another child of Martin and Catherine (if the first son named Martin was shortlived) or he could, as you have suggested, have been son of Martin Harvey and Elizabeth Dennys. (BTW - I am inclined towards the latter but ..............) The next issue is with the 'birthdate' ( ) of Martin's wife Alice ............ - you suggest she was born in 1715 yet (at least as far as I know) we do not even know her maiden name!!! This then surely has to be 'guess-work' OR you have evidence from a Will in which she is named as 'wife of Martin Harvey'. Amongst other issues, such as the mentions of the early Onesipherus Harvey of whom I currently have no knowledge apart from mentions by yourself and Zibetha, perhaps my main concern is references to a Harvey history extending back to 100AD!!! Given the already documented details about surviving Cornish records for the area in question I have to wonder ........ Your previous comments on your Harvey family suggest Breage/Helston as their primary location. Mentions of a baptism of Anne Harvey at Phillack around 1560 elicited a response that:- Firstly - the Cornwall Online Parish Clerk database is based on transcriptions of the surviving Cornwall Parish Records of which project many of our members including myself have been part. The records on the database comprise transcripts of those from surviving registers and include only those legible entries along with, in most cases, some indication of illegible entries. I do know that families from the St Buryan area interracted with areas such as Crowan and the Helston area a little later and I certainly have part of my family from Towednack having connections with St Buryan, Sennen and St Levan during the 18th Century so I do not discount the possibility that any family may have had connections between St Buryan and Breage. But ............ Another point of possible conention on my part is the 1719 Will of Martin Harvey of St Buryan. He does name wife Elizabeth and he does name a son Martin so we do know that Martin of (presumably) 1706 was alive at that time and that it may have been he who later married 'Alice'. What this Will does not discount is that possibility that Martin of 1692 or Martin or 1695 may also have been still living and, therefore, possible husbands of Alice. And that, therefore, poses questions about the prior ancestry of Martin Harvey who was baptised at St Buryan to Martin and Alice in 1738. No disrespect intended but I can as yet see no evidence to support any 'facts' beyond the fact that Martin Harvey was baptised to parents Martin and Alice at St Buryan 20th August 1738. I do have a number of Wills to work through which may or may not help solve part of this problem ................ CT
|
|
|
Post by zibetha on Feb 17, 2023 2:36:21 GMT -5
Thanks for all ideas contributed. It is complicated.
I will start with my latest possible montage of my ancestors from reading a will of Martin Harvey who died in St Buryan 1655. From his will: wife Joan, sons Richard and Martin (young and unmarried), daughters Katherine wife of Richard Shutford, and Alice. And names brother Peter. Namesake Martin is young and listed first. I struggle interpreting the penmanship.
Richard married Elizabeth Thomas
son Martin 1664 married Catherine
son Martin 1695 married Catherine Allen and 2nd wife Elizabeth Dennis?
son Martin married Alice
son Martin married Wilmot Clemence
from thence you travel on to me.
Then I return to Martin died 1655 who I calculate born 1600 ish. Can he be placed as son of Rev. Francis?? I do not know.
Etc: I know that my 2nd great-grandfather, Edward Harvey Sr and my immigrant ancestor stated that in biography thathe was from Fraddam in the Parish of Gwinear. I received a photo of his family along with a letter from a grandchild stating that the family was from Last End and records were lost. St Buryan?
While the family lived at Gwinear, Crowan and Phillack, most of the religious rites were at Phillack.
Zib
|
|
|
Post by zibetha on Feb 17, 2023 2:44:11 GMT -5
On to Osbert or not, I dug out some old printouts and that goes back to Peerage lines from Collins --and the Harveys of Bristol and Ickworth. I am not close to linking my more recent ancestor, Martin Harvey, to them. Martin's will 1655 is too big to upload here, but I found it on the National Archives. books.google.com/books?id=4x0wAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA139&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=falseWill take you to Anthony father of Rev Francis at page 144. Zib
|
|
|
Post by columb on Feb 17, 2023 11:55:10 GMT -5
Zib, Thanks for posting the extract from Collins. It is fascinating reading. I'm directly related to all those people. As usual, it throws up more questions. According to Family Search, Harvey Duke of Orleans was born in 1060 and yet Collins credits him with accompanying William The Conquerer in 1066. One of them has to be wrong. It's more likely to have been his father Herverus who would have been 46 at the battle of Hastings. I do hope you can connect your Martin (one of the many) to this branch of the Harvey tree.
Columb
|
|
|
Post by spikeharwood on Feb 17, 2023 19:06:08 GMT -5
"son Martin 1695 married Catherine Allen and 2nd wife Elizabeth Dennis?"
Hi Zib, In your Harvey line, I'm not sure your Martin b1695 married Catherine Allen. I've been looking at some of the Harvey research done by Tony Bennett (who occasionally posts here). He has transcribed the will of a Martin Harvey bur 1742. It mentions dau Catherine and son Martin. (Catherine his wife died a year earlier). The will also mentions Martin's sisters Loveday and Ann. Loveday is the daughter of Richard Harvey and Ann HARRIS married 1687 Gwennap. There's a baptism record for Loveday but seemingly none for Ann or Martin. There may be also a family connection via son Martin's guardian, a Thomas HARRIS. Martin marries Catherine Bawden and his children are named after the usual suspects, Ann, Richard, Loveday etc. So I think Martin's parents are most likely Richard and Ann and not Martin and Catherine. This wouldn't affect your Harvey line but you'd lose your Allen line. Tony has Martin H and Wilmot Clements and Martin H and Alice, but he hasn't suggested any parents for this Martin.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 18, 2023 9:06:32 GMT -5
Zib - I need to make a couple of corrections to your information regarding the Will of Martin Harvey 1655. 1. The Will was actually written 12th January 1651 (Julian) and proved 19th June 1652. (at first glance it does look like 1655 but compare with the Wills either side in the PCC film which are both 1652 and also look at the Probate note at the end of Martin's Will where the year is spelt out 'fifty two'. The 'f' of 'fifty' is quite different to what you have read as the first character of 'five'. 2. Martin Harvey's wife was named Jane. He tends to talk about himself in the third party at times and mentions 'if Jane Harvey the mother of Martin Harvey doth marry, that then Martin Harvey her sonne is to pay her five pounds a yeare ..........' (this last refers back the first request and proviso regarding marriage in an earlier bequest to his wife who was not then named) 3. After bequesting money to the 'Church of Burian' Martin Harvey's first bequest is to 'my wife and foure children'. Later in the Will he mentions daughter Alice, daughter Joane, son Martin and son Richard following the mention of Katherine Shutford:- Item give and bequeath to my daughter Alice ffortie pounds. Item give and bequeath to my daughter Joane fforty pounds. Item I give & bequeath to my sonne Richard twenty pounds. Item I give to my sonne Martin twenty pounds except before excepted , that and if Jane Harvey the mother of Martin Harvey doth marry , that then Martin Harvey her sonne is to pay her five pounds a yeare .......The four children are therefore Alice, Joane, Martin and Richard as mentioned above. The bequest naming Katherine Shutford relates to an earlier bequest to his son Richard:- Item I give and bequeath to my sonne Richard Harvey he halfe endeale of a liveing in Burian called Trevore after the decease of Martin Harvey the elder And if the said Richard Harvey should dye in the meane time a young man, That Martin Harvey brother to the said Richard Harvey shall enjoy the liveing soe long as the lives of Joane Harvey the wife of Martin Harvey and Katherine Shutford the wife of Richard Shutford shalbe liveing.So the way this reads there could actually be three Martin Harveys involved in this Will - the testator, his son Martin and 'Martin Harvey the elder' whose wife was named Joane. But then if I refer back to my statement about about wife 'Jane' and only two daughters and the fact that the Testator tended to refer to himsef in the third party then I may be misreading that part of the Will. If Martin is referring to himself in this particular bequest then the problem is that his wife is referred to as 'Joane' in one part of the Will but as 'Jane' later on. That may make sense as well, particularly if wife Joane/Jane and Katherine Shutford were sisters (or perhaps cousins) having been named as lives on Trevore. I want to add here also that it appears from this Will that none of the children of Martin Harvey were married at the time the Will was written. Next item of interest is the 1662 Will of Richard Shutford of St Buryan. Richard mentions his mother Margarett who appears to be widowed but there is no indication of her age. Perhaps as young as 45 or 50 or as old as her 90s. He also mentions son Robert who is not yet 21 followed by five daughters - Sarah, Sislie, Alice, Mary and Margarett. Two properties referred to by Richard Shutford were Bolanken and also one Tenement in Trevore in St Buryan which he had recently purchased. The tenement in Trevore he left to his wife Catherine! All I need now is to find a Will that might identify Catherine/Katherine Shutford and Joane/Jane Harvey as sisters and that has a reference to Trevore! CT
|
|