|
Post by bazza on Sept 13, 2016 19:09:03 GMT -5
Hello all!
It's been a long time (I just looked and my last post here was seven years ago!) but I am finally back around to trying to tackle the Richards family and figure out who's who! But I will need help!
What I know:
JOHN RICHARDS married ELIZABETH MITCHELL in Zennor 17 Mar 1827 (witnesses wife's father or brother, Samuel Mitchell, and parish clerk, William Polmear) and had: - ELIZABETH bapt. 7 Oct 1817, Uny Lelant; m. St. Ives 17 Aug 1854 to Thomas Nicholas, son of Christian Nicholas and Mary Richards (more on her later). Went to USA immediately after their marriage. - MARY bapt. 22 Jan 1830, Lelant - JANE bapt. 29 Apr 1832, Lelant - NANCY THOMAS bapt. 26 Oct 1824, Zennor - ELIZA bapt. 2 Oct 1836, Zennor - GRACE MITCHELL b. 1838, Zennor - LOUISA bapt. 27 Jun 1841, Zennor - ROSINA bapt. 4 Mar 1844, Zennor - JOHN bapt. 10 May 1846, Zennor, bur. 20 Oct 1848, St. Ives - LAVINIA PIETY bapt. 7 Jun 1849, St. Ives (Prim. Meth.)
The whole family (ex. eldest daughter Elizabeth) came to Australia in 1854. John worked as a shoemaker. According to his death certificate his parents were JOHN RICHARDS, shoemaker, and MARY THOMAS. People matching those names were married in Zennor on 1 Sep 1791 (no further info on OPC transcript).
John's (m. Eliz. Mitchell) birth year is variously calculated as 1803 (from 1841 census), 1805 ('51 census and death cert.), and 1807 (immigration). The 1851 census gives his place of birth as Madron. Potential baptism dates for John are: - 5 Mar 1802, Madron, son of John Richards Jr (doubtful, as John Richards Jr, carpenter, m. Prudence Richards in Madron in 1798) - 4 Apr 1802, Madron, son of John Richards - 22 Aug 1802, Madron, son of John Richards - 27 Oct 1805, Zennor, son of John Richards
Which of these is him?
I'd also like to know who John Richards and Mary Thomas' other children were. There are about 25 baptisms on the OPC database to John Richards (without a mother named) in Madron/Zennor and surrounds in the two decades after 1791. I believe one of theirs is Mary, bapt. 19 Feb 1792, Zennor, who married Christian Nicholas in Gulval on 26 May 1810. The youngest of their children was Thomas, who married Elizabeth Richards (daughter of John Richards and Elizabeth Mitchell, above), his first cousin. Mary then remarried to a Mr. Stevens (maybe Alexander) before leaving for America with her sons and daughter-in-law.
Obviously, following on, I'd love to know who John Richards' parents were, and confirm if Mary Thomas was the lass baptised 4 May 1772, Zennor, the daughter of THOMAS THOMAS and MARY RICHARDS (more Richardses!!).
Cheers,
Baz
|
|
|
Post by bazza on Sept 13, 2016 19:16:05 GMT -5
Possible baptisms of children, with father John (those whose mother is named and it’s not Mary, are excluded), in OPC database 1791-1812, Zennor/Madron & surrounds: - 19 Feb 1792, Zennor; Mary, d/ John - 4 Nov 1795, Madron; Sarah d/ John (twin, bt. at Penzance) - 4 Nov 1795, Madron; John s/ John (twin, bt. at Penzance) - 22 May 1795, Madron; John s/ John (bt. at Penzance) - 10 May 1795, Zennor; Margaret d/ John - 24 May 1795, Gulval; Grace d/ John [bur. 20 Aug 1796, Gulval] - 21 May 1797, Madron; John s/ John (bt. at Penzance) - 13 Aug 1797, Gulval; Grace d/ John - 18 Jul 1798, Madron; Grace d/ John (privately bt. at Madron) - 10 Feb 1799, Zennor; Nancy d/ John - 1 Dec 1799, Madron; Mary d/ John - 5 Mar 1802, Madron; John s/ John Jr. (privately bt.) - 4 Apr 1802, Madron; John s/ John - 22 Aug 1802, Madron; John s/ John - 13 Nov 1803, Gulval; Elizabeth d/ John - 18 Mar 1804, Madron; James s/ John - 29 Sep 1805, Zennor; William s/ John - 27 Oct 1805, Zennor; John s/ John - 18 Aug 1805, Madron, William s/ John Jr. (bt. privately at Madron) - 27 Jul 1806, Madron; Patience d/ John - 11 Oct 1807, Madron; Thomas s/ John - 3 Apr 1808, Zennor; William s/ John - 30 Jul 1809, Zennor; Thomas Eddy s/ John (private bt.) - 27 Aug 1809, Madron; Henry John s/ John - 19 Aug 1810, Zennor; Alice d/ John - 9 Jan 1812, Zennor; Elizabeth d/ John
Those baptised at Gulval are probably the children of John Richards and Ann Eddy, who were married at Morvah on 14 Mar 1797, as in that record the husband is noted as being 'of Gulval'. Though there is the 1795 baptism of Grace that predates this marriage. Thomas Eddy Richards (1809) likely belongs to them too, given his middle name.
All the baptisms in Madron after 1798 have been claimed by an online tree as being the children of John Richards Jr & Prudence Richards, married there 7 Apr 1798. Only two of the baptisms give the father's epithet as 'junior' so I'm unsure if all of the Madron baptisms should be attributable to that couple.
There are another seven John Richards marrying in that interval who could be potential fathers to the above.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 14, 2016 1:18:37 GMT -5
Hi Baz .... and Welcome Back! The probability seems to be that John Richards was the son of John Richards baptised at Zennor in 1805. It is curious that his 1851 Census entry states he was born at Madron and equally curious that his age in 1841 reflects a birth around 1802 or 1803 given later records indicate he was born around 1805 or 6. But the fact he may have been born at Madron does not mean he had to have been baptised there. Likewise the fact that someone was baptised at Zennor does not necessarily mean they were born in that Parish either. I make this last comment because Zennor was another Parish were for a long period the mother's name was not recorded in the baptism register. The number of Richards children baptsied at Zennor between about 1790 and 1820 where the father was named John seems to suggest probably just the one family however there is an oddity in the case of two baptisms for William Richards in 1805 and 1808. The first William was baptised a few months before John in 1805 yet there is no burial before the second baptism of a William Richards in 1808. Also of some note with the family at Zennor is the gap between 1799 and 1805 with no children baptised. There may not have been any children born to the family during that time of course but on the other hand it may be that the family was away from Zennor for a period with other children born elsewhere. This could very well be the case with John! So - at the moment I am inclined to accept the later evidence which suggests John, although possibly born at Madron, was baptised at Zennor in 1805 to John Richards and Mary Thomas. It is interesting that John's parents were both named in the Pioneer's Index and it does indicate some knowledge of the family. Do you have a copy of John's Birth Certificate?? If so would it be possible for you to scan it and send me a copy for my records please? I am interested in this family because they are of Zennor as well as because of connections with the Michell family but I would also like to see the certificate for myself to evaluate all the information. I am presuming the information must have been supplied by Elizabeth? One further comment about John's parents - unfortunately the marriage register for that period is not openly available so it would require a copy to be obtained from the Cornwall Record Office in order to find out any further details recorded. The occupation of John Richards, if recorded, would be interesting as would the names of the witnesses. To answer your question about the parents of John Richards and Mary Thomas - John Richards I believe was baptised at Zennor 20th July 1766 to John Richards and Margaret (nee Uren). He was buried at Zennor 14th August 1823 age 57 and recorded as being 'of Porthmeor'. Mary Thomas was, as you suspect, baptised privately at Zennor 4th May 1772 to Thomas Thomas and Mary Richards. Ref daughter Mary who married Christian Nicholas at Gulval in 1810. Her second husband was Alexander Corin Stephens who she married in 1840 but I am not sure yet whether the marriage took place at the Registry Office or in one of the Chapels. Do you have further information to link Elizabeth as daughter of John Richards and Elizabeth Mitchell?? The reason I ask is that I just looked at the marriage record and it shows Elizabeth's father as John Richards with his occupation being MINER! Census and other records do seem to indication you are correct but given John Richards was a shoemaker/cordwainer in every record from the 1820's through to 1851 and then again in Australia it seems strange that his daughter would say he was a miner when she got married. Your final question is about the other children of John Richards and Mary Thomas. My list is as follows:- Mary bp. 19th February 1792 Zennor Margaret bp. 10th May 1795 Zennor - married John Thomas at Zennor 8th March 1823 Ann bp. 10th February 1799 Zennor - married William Thomas at Morvah 22nd March 1822 William bp. 19th September 1805 Zennor - see notes aboveJohn bp. 27th October 1805 Zennor - most probably the man who married Elizabeth MitchellWilliam bp. 3rd April 1808 Zennor - married Nancy Berryman at Zennor 28th September 1836 Thomas Eddy bp. 30th July 1809 Zennor - married Sarah Harris at Towednack 29th August 1835 Alice bp. 19th August 1810 Zennor - married Richard Rule at Lelant 28th November 1840 Elizabeth bp. 9th January 1812 Zennor - married Israel Quick at Redruth 10th September 1855 With the exception of William in 1805 I am reasonably confident of all the above but I should point out that it is all open to further investigation and, if proved necessary, alteration. CT
|
|
|
Post by bazza on Sept 14, 2016 18:33:44 GMT -5
Hey CT!
How've you been? Still fighting fires at Chiltern? In the last seven years, I've moved out, living in Melbourne, got a couple of degrees, and a wife, now doing a PhD!
I agree that the 1805 Zennor baptism is probably my John. But, like you, don't know why Madron was put as his birthplace on the census. I have John's death certificate (which I'm sure is what you meant - too early for birth certs!) - the informant was his daughter Lavinia. I don't have a copy of the original here with my (it's back in Wodonga), but I do have a transcription, which I'll post afterwards.
I'll contact the CRO to see if they can get me a copy of the Richards-Thomas marriage. So, taking it back further, do you know of the families of John Richards (m. Margaret) and Mary Richards (m. Thomas^2)? The Thomas mob have been pretty well discussed here, so we've got them sorted. Have Margaret's Uren folk been talked about? I'll look into it.
Re: Elizabeth: John Richards' estate was administered by his daughter Rosina in 1913 (almost 40 years after he died - there was some trouble with selling land that once belonged to him, as it was never legally transferred to Elizabeth after his death, so Rosina had to get admin. granted so she could sell the property). In it, Rosina lists all of John's surviving family, which was his wife and all his daughters (his only son died in infancy). Rosina lists the eldest as "Elizabeth Nicholas died in the United States of America more than ten years since" but did not know the specifics of the date or place. I then found the death of Elizabeth Nicholas in Mason City, Iowa on 2 Dec 1900, the wife of Thomas Nicholas (who died there 10 Aug 1909). Also, Thomas and Elizabeth had a daughter named Lavinia and one named Rosa (=Rosina), which give good onomastic ties to my Richardses. So, while John Richards was definitely a shoemaker and does not seem to have done a day of mining in his life, I'm pretty confidant the Nicholas-Richards marriage belongs to my family. I think the clerk just got a little confused or overly keen on the 'ditto' - as Thomas and his father Christian were both miners. Incidentally, do you know when Christian Nicholas died? Sometime between 1837 and 1840, but I don't know the precise year.
With regards to the last list of children, how do you know that any of them did not belong to one of the several other John Richards marrying around that time? Particularly Thomas Eddy Richards - why don't you think he's the son of John Richards and Ann Eddy? Was it common to give surnames as middle names if the surname in question was not found in your close family?
It's good to be back!
Baz
|
|
|
Post by bazza on Sept 14, 2016 18:39:56 GMT -5
DEATH CERTIFICATE OF JOHN RICHARDS: Reg. No. 2598/1874 District of Narrawong When and where died: January 4th, 1874, at Narrawong, Portlandshire, County Normanby Name and surname, rank, &c: John Richards, boot maker Sex and age: Male, 68 years Cause of death, duration, medical attendant: Chronic bronchitis, 1 years, Dr. Brewer, Portland (last saw deceased 16 Dec 1873) Parents: John Richards, boot maker, & Mary Richards, m.n. Thomas Informant: Lavinia Richards, daughter of deceased, Narrawong Registration: Daniel McLean, 5 Jan 1874, at Narrawong When and where buried: 6th January 1874, North Portland Cemetery, Christopher Flynn, undertaker Name and religion of minister: Rev. R. M. Hunter, Wesleyan minister Where born, how long in Aus.: In England, 19 years in Victoria Details of marriage: Cornwall, England, 22 years of age, to Elizabeth Richards, m.n. Mitchell Details of issue: Elizabeth, 46; Mary, 44; Jane, 41; Nancy, 39; Eliza, 37; Grace, 34; Louisa, 32; Rosina, 29; John, deceased; Lavinia, 24
(I paraphrased some of the headings, all info there though.)
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 14, 2016 23:20:39 GMT -5
Hi Baz - yes, I have been still fighting fires, including Barnawartha last Christmas, although I haven't turned out for a while due to other issues. Yes, I did mean John's Death Certificate the details of which I see you have now posted. I will study that in more detail soon but you have probably answered the questions I had with the details about John's Will. On that bases I will now go ahead and add the marriage of Elizabeth to Thomas Nicholas. There should be no trouble getting a copy from the CRO so I would appreciate a copy when you get it. Zennor and Towednack are the two remaining Parishes for which I am lacking 1754-1812 marriage records and I have been trying to build up a collection for each as I can so this one would help that cause as well as that of the Richards and Thomas families. At this stage I don't know the identity of the Mary Thomas who married Thomas Thomas in 1772 but the last update in my database for her was way back in 2000 so perhaps it is time I to look at her again! I also have not yet been able to correctly identify John Richards husband of Margaret Uren and that is probably largely because I haven't identified his death/burial. If that occurred at Zennor prior to 1813 then there may be no age recorded which makes identification so much more difficult but I will look at it again. Margaret Uren is another matter and on looking at my database I see that I may have confused the issue slightly. She was actually a Banfield at the time she married John Richards she having been previously married to Thomas Banfield at Towednack in 1749. Thomas Banfield died in 1750 six months after his infant son with both buried at Lelant. Margaret Uren was baptised at Lelant 26th July 1724 daughter of Clement Uren and Mary Gendall with details beyond that being a little sketchy and confusing due to the state of the Lelant records. Very good question and one that I am conscious of. In fact that was on my mind with my comments about the two William Richards baptisms in 1805 and 1808. But I have to admit that even after looking at the potential list of John Richards marriages that the one to Ann Eddy did not register even though I have long been concerned about where Thomas Eddy Richards should belong! Time for me to look at that issue again as well methinks! I have other projects to work on this afternoon but will try and also take care of a few of the Richards anomalies as well. CT
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 14, 2016 23:52:30 GMT -5
Two things with this - first of all the use of surnames as a second forename was mostly related to family members but there were occasions when the name of a close friend or someone of importance was involved. More importantly I think I have just been able to identify the Ann Eddy who married John Richards at Morvah in 1797! Prior to starting on my other work I decided to check details of the marriage and realised that I have it in the Morvah BTs complete with witnesses! John Richards was 'of Gulval' and Ann Eddy 'of Morvah' at the time with the witnesses being S Ustick and M Ustick. Ann's father William Eddy died at Morvah in 1788 after which widowed Ann Eddy married Stephen Ustick in 1790. I suspect Stephen will have been the first witness. There was a daughter Mary from that second marriage but she was born in 1790 and would have been just 7 when her half-sister married so she could not have been the second witness. But Stephen Ustick did have a sister Mary and I don't yet know what happened to her. If she remained a spinster or if she married another Ustick then perhaps she was the second witness to Ann's marriage to John Richards. It now makes sense that Thomas Eddy Richards would belong to this couple with Thomas probably being named for Ann Eddy's youngest brother. And that then opens up the possibility that William Richards of 1805 at Zennor may belong to them as well. Problem now is that this opens up a whole new can of worms! It is logical that John and Ann Richards would have named a daughter Ann so we now need to consider Ann of 1799 at Zennor possibly being their child. And that then leaves a rather large gap between the baptism of Margaret in 1795 and that of John in 1805!! That Ann was baptised at Zennor but then married at Morvah is interesting although not conclusive as she married William Thomas from Zennor but it still leaves some pondering to be done. It also means that all children baptised to John Thomas during the relevant period will need to be looked at again very carefuly. I know that two of the John Richards marriages during the relevant time related to couples resident at Penzance so they can probably be eliminated and I also know that of the other marriages at least one involved a widow but I think each marriage not involving Penzance will need to be checked thoroughly. CT
|
|
|
Post by bazza on Sept 15, 2016 4:24:55 GMT -5
CT, which are the John Richards marriages that can be ruled out for contributing to this lot? Would be good to know, so I don't go chasing them.
I think maybe that Thomas Eddy and William 1805 will end up with Ann Eddy as their mother. A bit more work to do, obviously, but I agree with your logic.
One thing I'm not so convinced on is that Margaret Banfield née Uren was the mother of my John Richards born 1766. For one thing, there's the 11 year gap between marriage and John's baptism. The other, more pressing issue, is that there is a will for John Richards of Lelant that was proved in 1765, which names Margaret as wife and three daughters (Margaret, Elizabeth, Dueans) and a son (John). Benjamin Richards Singer, Thomas Sandowe and his wife Margaret are named as guardians for the children, who are all under 21. So, with hubby John dead in 1765, Margaret Uren cannot be mother to John Richards born 1766. There is a 'Duense' Richards baptised in Lelant in 1789, daughter of John and Ann - which indicates that John the son of John & Margaret of Lelant married Ann Osborne 1781 or Ann Uren 1784 and were having kids at Lelant 1784-1792. So I don't think that Margaret Uren can be my ancestress.
The only other candidate I can see on the OPCs' database is a marriage to Margaret Harries in Mawgan in 1763. A much smaller gap between marriage and kids then. John, in the Mawgan marriage, is noted to be a sojourner, so was not a native or long term resident of the village. Witnesses to this marriage were parish clerk Sampson Stephens and Francis Orchard. No children are baptised in Mawgan to John & Margaret Richards, so it is likely they came to Zennor soon after. There's a Martin Richards, baptised at Zennor 20 Aug 1769, whose father was John, so may be a brother to my John b. 1766. If so, then John (m. Margaret) is quite possibly a son of John Richards and Alice Donithorn (who have a convenient gap in the baptisms of their children between 1739 and 1743 that would accommodate sojourner John quite nicely), as they too had a son Martin. Also, this theory provides onomastic reasoning for John & Mary (Thomas) Richards to name a daughter Alice - named for John's grandmother.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 15, 2016 4:43:15 GMT -5
Baz - I am going to be putting this problem to the side for a while and concentrate on a few other things. But first I need to document a couple of problems for you.
I spent some time trying to find more possible children for John and Mary and for John Richards and Ann Eddy with the latter becoming more the focus. The problems I have found associate more so with the latter but could equally impact the former family of John and Mary.
Firstly there is a baptism at Gulval for a Grace daughter of John and Ann Richards in 1799. It was not common for the mother's name to be recorded in the Gulval register at this time but certainly helpful as this must almost certainly be John Richards and Ann Eddy. The complication arises with the prior baptisms and burials of two Grace Richards along with another confusing burial:-
Grace daughter of John Richards bp. 24th May 1795 Gulval Grace daughter of John Richards bur. 20th August 1796 Gulval Mary wife of John Richards bur. 8th December 1796 Gulval Grace daughter of John Richards junr. bp. 13th August 1797 Gulval
The previous baptism of a child at Gulval to John Richards was back in 1789 and prior to that in 1785 and then 1781 so the expectation would be that the above might be a different family. Nevertheless, it is the burial of Mary wife of John Richards a few months after the burial of Grace that is interesting but even more confusing. The problem with this Mary is that I can find no possible marriage to account for her!. Of course, I did investigate the possibility that this might have been Mary Thomas but later records indicate she was certainly still alive in 1851 when she was with her daughter Mary Stevens.
My suspicion based on the above is that the John Richards who married Ann Eddy may have been previously married with Mary potentially being that wife. The situation would look like this:-
John Richards marries an unknown Mary sometime before 1795 Grace daughter of John Richards is baptised in 1795 Grace daughter of John Richards is buried in 1796 Mary wife of John Richards is buried in 1796 John Richards then marries Ann Eddy at Morvah in 1796 Grace daughter of John Richards is baptised at Gulval in 1797 (about five or six months later) Grace daughter of John Richards is buried at Gulval in 1797 Grace daughter of John and Ann Richards is baptised at Gulval in 1799
AHA!! - I just looked at this last burial in the Gulval Register and it states 'Grace Richards from Penzance was buried 13th August 1797'. So perhaps my comment about not finding a possible marriage with Mary is incorrect! I had discounted connections with marriages where the parties were residing at Penzance and perhaps that was a little premature. It might be the 1777 Madron marriage of John Richards of Penzance to Mary Rodda who was then of Madron.
I am not fully convinced of this but it might help to work on it some more. It would certainly mean that this John Richards would have been at least 20 years older than Ann Eddy.
Probably best I move on to something else for a while now and let my thoughts on this settle. Maybe another look at it tomorrow with fresh eyes (and brain!) might provide some more answers.
CT
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 15, 2016 6:14:04 GMT -5
Looks like you posted your latest while I was still compiling mine!! So now you have given me something else to think about I will put my other project on hold for a little longer. After looking at that Will and reviewing some of my data again it now appears I have two families combined. And this now explains one or two anomalies I had with the family of John and Margaret. Firstly though in answer to your comment about the length of time between the marriage and the baptism of John (as I had the scenario) is that I do have a list of 7 children prior to the baptism of John! But now I look at it all again with the benefit of the Will it does, as I said, indicate I have two families mixed together. In the case of daughter Duens mentioned in the Will there is a problem as I can find no baptism for any such child. However John and Margaret did baptise a daughter Prudence at Lelant in 1758. She was the third daughter of Margaret and Elizabeth who were both also mentioned in the Will. Following these three there were two short-lived daughters named Mary followed by a son John in 1764 and it will be this John who later married Ann and named daughter Duens. I have one other child to this marriage who now may not belong - a son William who was buried at Lelant in 1766 'son of John Richards'. With 'Prudence' now probably being daughter 'Duens' it means that the John Richards at Lelant was probably a son of Benjamin Richards and Duense Tyack who married at Lelant in 1720. And yes, I just found that they did indeed have a son John baptised at Lelant 9th Septmeber 1724. Also of note is that John and Ann named a son Benjamin which would confirm the link. Okay, now that is out of the way I will reconsider things with that marriage at Mawgan. On the face of it the 1763 Mawgan marriage now 'seems' to be that for John Richards of Zennor but once again I am still not totally convinced. For one thing John Richards was a sojourner 'of' Mawgan rather than 'in' Mawgan when he married which tends to suggest he was actually a Mawgan man and secondly there was a child baptised at Sithney in 1764 to John and Margaret Richards. But we all know that things written in registers are not always totally accurate so point one is less of a problem and in the case of the child at Sithney - well there was a John and Margaret Richards at Sithney a little earlier so this was probably the last of their children. My main issue now is that I can find no burial (or possible re-marriage) for a Margaret Richards at Zennor who might have been the wife of John! Not only that but there is no burial at Zennor for a John Richards who could have been the husband of Margaret!! I agree that Martin is probably John's brother but in light of the fact I cannot find a burial for John or Margaret at Zennor makes me extremely reluctant to suggest just where John might belong. Although he named a daughter Alice it does not necessarily mean a connection to Alice Donnithorne especially as Alice was the fourth daughter. The first two daughters were Mary and Margaret with origins being clear enough and the third daughter was Ann who 'might' have been named for Mary's sister Ann. The lack of burials is now really the big problem to overcome. CT
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 15, 2016 7:06:19 GMT -5
Probably my last note on this subject before I call it quits for the night - I just found a burial at St Ives in 1788 for a Margaret Richards age 47. This would put her birth around 1741 which is a reasonable match for the wife of John Richards of Zennor.
I have done a little checking and there is no Margaret baptised at St Ives around this time and nor is there another married Margaret at St Ives who could be a match. But whether or not it is the same Margaret we still have a lot more thinking to do given the disappearance of John and Margaret from Zennor.
CT
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 15, 2016 8:12:14 GMT -5
Well ..... it turns out the last wasnt' my last for the night! I've just found something to offer even more thinking about John Richards, particularly with any connection to Martin. In order to attack the problem from a different angle I have started to look at any Richards families where the name Martin was involved. That has accidentally led me to something I had never noticed before in the Zennor records. The 1735 baptism of Martin to John and Alice Richards is from the Hoblyn Transcript where it is recorded as [?Martin]. I have a copy of the original Zennor register (courtesy FamilySearch) which shows that the entry is right at the bottom of the page which is now covered by tape. Writing can be seen but it is extremely difficult to make out. However, I also have a copy of the Bishops Transcripts which shows John son of John and Alice Richards baptised November 9th! This now makes much more sense because I had earlier checked the BTs for 1737-1743 and could find no record of John. Having found other 'missing' baptisms in the BTs in the past it was extremely strange that no baptism at all could have been found for John in either the PR or the BTs. And this particular 'find' now removes the mystery of why John and Alice should have used Martin as a name for their first son! So then, just what does this do for the overall problem? First of all the fact John and Margaret named a son Martin means we may have to look elsewhere for the origins of John unless, of course, Martin came from Margaret's family. The OPC database has no baptism for a John son of Martin prior to 1779 but Martin was a name found at Madron for the Richards family. The earliest Martin Richards at Zennor appears to have been the Martin who married Isabella Thomas in 1722 at Zennor but thereafter they appear to have moved to Madron where five children were baptised between 1723 and 1734. The last child was son Martin who could have been the Martin who married Bridget Barnicote at Zennor in 1772 and that is possibly supported by Bridget probably being baptised at Penzance in 1749 illegitimate daughter of Dorothy Barnicoat. Or perhaps the husband of Bridget was another Martin baptised at Madron in 1739 to John Richards. It begins to get more messy here because the Madron registers do not show the name of the mother and for long periods nor did Gulval or, as we know, Zennor. It will not be an easy task to determine for certain which Martin is which or whether he was a brother to your John. One thing that does now appear obvious is that there was a Richards connection between Madron and Zennor. On that note I really am going to cease for the night and I am thinking The Samurai ('60s TV series) might come into serious contention for something to watch while I have a bite to eat! CT
|
|
|
Post by bazza on Sept 16, 2016 10:21:12 GMT -5
CT, looking at the Martin Richards issue: in the 1700s we have three Martin Richards who marry at Zennor/Madron – to Isabella Thomas in 1722; to Bridget Barnicoat in 1772 and to Jane Phillips in 1787.
I think we can set aside this last one for now, as he was the son of William Richards and Ann Rodda and so his name of Martin came through the Rodda side, not the Richards.
The other two I believe are related closely, the second being the nephew of the first. As I see it, Martin & Isabella had five children in Madron after marrying in Zennor in 1722: Elizabeth, Prudence, Martha, Charles and Martin. John Richards (of Morvah) married Hannah Michell in Zennor in 1726 and had ten children in Madron: Anna (Hannah), Charles, John, Ann, Mary, Elizabeth, James, Duense (Prudence), Elizabeth and Martin. Martin (m. I. Thomas) and John (m. H. Michell) are probably brothers due to the shared, relatively uncommon, names of Charles, Prudence and Martin in their children.
This last-named Martin, the youngest of John & Hannah’s children, I think is the one who married Bridget Barnicoat. Their eldest daughter was named Hannah (after Martin’s mother) and they had a son James (after Martin’s maternal grandfather).
If this scenario is correct, then there is a John Richards, son of John & Hannah, born 1730 who could be the husband of Margaret and father of ‘my’ John and Martin.
Of course, the Martin name could come through Margaret’s side.... :/
B
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 16, 2016 10:59:14 GMT -5
Hi Baz - I'm not quite so sure about all those children at Madron. I have been working on all the Martin Richards so that I can get them organised and tied back to the right families and in doing that obviously I need to look at the likes of John and William with sons named Martin. I have therefore looked at the Madron records and I am not convinced that John and Hannah were responsible for all the children you have allocated to them. Amongst the children you have listed I think Charles is by far the least likely to belong although it is 'just' possible. The reason is that Anna/Hannah was baptised 23rd March 1728/9 and then Charles baptism is 1st March 1729/30. That part is fine with 11 months between them but the problem arises when we see that John was baptised 30th August 1730 which is just five months after Charles!!! Given there is just 11 months between the baptisms of Hannah and Charles then there is no room for Charles birth to have been any more than a couple of months before his baptism. With John baptised just five months after him then Charles, it would seem, simply cannot fit into the family. The one possible exception would be if Hannah's baptism had been delayed by six months or more which would also require Catherine to have been baptised a little late. But then I see that you don't have Catherine in the list of children for John and Hannah anyway!!! Catherine daughter of John Richards was baptised at Morvah 6th August 1727. I see your point about Martin son of William Richards and Ann Rodda but at the moment I am working on the assumption that William's family may be the origin of his name. Until I can disprove that I am keeping him in the mix. BTW - when I said I am working on 'all' the Martin Richards I do mean only those connected to the Morvah/Zennor family so I currently only need to look at Morvah, Zennor, Maron, Gulval and now St Ives and Towednack registers. Ludgvan and Lelant look like they may creep into the mix but not until later. I will keep you informed of any progress. CT
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 16, 2016 20:14:07 GMT -5
I mentioned in my last that I would pursue this family on the assumption that Martin came from the Richards side until I can prove otherwise. I have only just now come back to look at William and Ann again having spent quite a bit of time tracking down the marriages and children of the various Martin Richards along with the burials of as many of the Martins as I could find. The two burials at Zennor in 1795 and 1807 were the most difficult having no age recorded and the 1795 event in particular was a bit of a trap! The burial was on September 27th and as I looked at it the name struck a chord. Checking the children of Martin Richards and Jane Phillips I found that September 25th 1795 was also the day their son Samuel was baptised so my first instinct was that the father was buried the day his son was baptised. Problem with this fairly common conclusion was that I had about three more children baptised after 1795 so I checked on my other Martin Richards with children baptised around the same time in case they might belong to him. (Husband of Bridget Barnicoat) I was soon able to discount this couple as parents of the later children as Bridget would have been past 50. The conclusion now is that the 1795 burial was that of the husband of Bridget with she living on until the age of about 80 or 81. So, given Martin and Jane were still around post-1800 but there being no later burial it meant that the 1807 event had to be that of Jane Phillips' husband. And this in turn led me to another, still rather shaky, conclusion. Phillimore records a marriage at Zennor in 1810 for a William Maddron to a widowed Jane Richards and I had never previously been able to sort out who Jane might have been. (BTs also have this marriage but with no descriptors). My 'shaky' conclusion now is that the widow must have been Jane Phillips remarrying a couple of years after Martin died. The reason this is a little shaky is that I can find no further trace of William and Jane Maddron!! (This includes variants such as Maddern, Madren etc.) Returning to William Richards and Ann Rodda - you are quite right that the name Martin 'might' come from the Rodda side but, as I repeated above, I prefer to work on the theory that it comes from the Richards side until proven otherwise. However, it may turn out to be irrelevant which side the name came from as I now have another possible link. If we work on the possibility that our early Martin might be connected with William, John and Thomas at Morvah then there is a potential link from William and Ann back to William Richards at Morvah in the 1680s via the name Solomon. It is certainly a tenuous link but still a possibility. Finally, before I disappear again for a while, the nearest I can come so far to identifying the early Martin Richards is that he is probably the following named in the 1705 Will of Matthew Thomas of Zennor - CT
|
|