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Post by bazza on Oct 1, 2016 8:58:06 GMT -5
Will of Allice Curnow, widow, of Zennor Written: 23 Jun 1808 Proved: 6 Aug 1808 - son, William Curnow, £2 - son, John Curnow, 5s. - daughter, Allice Curnow of Towednack, £3. - daughter, Elisabeth Hollow, wife of Thos Hollow, of Zennor, £3 - daughter, Mary Curnow, £8 - son, James Curnow, rest and residue Executor: son, James Curnow The Sign of Allice Curnow: O Witnesses: Christr. Michell, Ann (X) Stevens [CRO: AP/C/4512; FHL: 2220790, im. 1488-1490]
So, Elizabeth, daughter of William Curnow and Alice Richards was indeed the woman who married Thomas Hollow in 1799, as Sue surmised. I can't really add anything to the discussion re: Ishmael's wife's identity. Neither David nor Paul Curnow left a will that would help solidify the suspicions.
As an aside, has the Catherine Richards who married in 1765, with Job Richards as witness, been identified?
Baz
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Post by sue on Oct 1, 2016 10:48:41 GMT -5
This David Curnow 1751 did leave a surviving will, 22 February 1803, in which there are 4 beneficiaries: John Baragnawath (probably cousin on mother's side), Aliss Bennetts, (ditto); Jane Curnow & Alice Curnow, these latter probably being the widows of 2 of his brothers, Jane Safeguard & Alice Richards.
But this will does not assist in the current Richards enquiries!
Eliz Curnow~Ishmael Hollow marriage witnessed by Job Richards July 1791 I believe to be daughter of David Curnow 1743-82 militiaman & Elizabeth Berriman who was buried 1778 same day as youngest son baptized. Thus, in 1778 there were motherless children Eliz age 13, Margaret age 10, William age 8, David age 3 and baby John. If it was Uncle John Curnow & wife Jennifer Toman who took them in alongside their own children John, Wilmot, Jenefer/Jane, then later additions of Mary & Richard, I think this explains a lot of the names of Ishmael & Elizabeth's children (John Elizabeth Mary Wilmot William Ann Thomas Jennifer). I would also add that Zennor/Gulval as their homes post 1791 marriage has parallels with Eliz. Curnow's brother William, who married 1793 Gulval then baptized children Morvah/Gulval/Madron/Zennor/Penzance.
Eliz Curnow 1764 works better for Lelant, what with her siblings being mostly St Ives lives and sister Catherine Bohenna baptizing a lot of her children at Lelant right around the time of Elizabeth Curnow's Lelant marriage.
Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 1, 2016 11:50:43 GMT -5
I do think you might mean Catherine EDWARDS and the answer is no, she has not yet been identified. Although I suspect she may have been a cousin to husband Thomas Osborne given his mother was also an Edwards. On the John Richards front I believe I have something new to offer! I have been trying to work around the problem and tonight spent some time with St Ives records given at least some of the St Ives Richards appear to have had origins in Zennor. I downloaded several Richards Wills and have been trying to figure connections with the result that I think I can now eliminate one John Richards from your direct line. You recently mentioned a John Richards being buried at St Ives in 1804 and wondered if he might possibly be the father of your John. His Will was one of those I downloaded and no, he was not the son of John and Margaret. But the contents of this Will suggest that this John was most likely the son of Thomas Richards and Dinah Cisley baptised at Zennor in 1742. And that means that if the John Richards who married Margaret was a Zennor lad then he was most probably the son of John Richards and Alice Donithorne baptised in 1735. The John Richards of 1804 married Mary Noall at St Ives in 1769 and the marriage record shows that he was a tinner and that he was 'of Zennor'. John named only two sons in his Will - John and Matthew - the naming of John is obvious and I suspect Matthew was named after John's own brother who I think is the Matthew Richards buried at Zennor in 1766. There were also four daughters named in the Will - Mary, Jane, Grace and Elizabeth. The naming of Mary is again obvious although all four are also the names of John's sisters. But the name that makes the connection to Thomas and Dinah a little more likely is Grace with their daughter of that name having married John Baragwanath at Zennor in 1771. I am yet to find a burial for Grace but Thomas Richards indicated in his 1785 Will that she was deceased and John Baragwanath remarried in 1779 to Phyllis Bond at St Hilary. Also connecting John Richards to Thomas and Dinah are the Wills of both he and Thomas with the passing down of property at Tregurthen in Zennor. I still have a lot more work to do but I don't see much of it happening tonight/this morning!! CT
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Post by bazza on Oct 3, 2016 17:57:03 GMT -5
Yes, I did mean Edwards. Apologies.
I agree with your thinking and we can discount the John Richards of 1804 burial as my ancestor. How about the man who was buried in St. Ives in 1822 age 84? Have you found a place for him? The age seems right, and it complements the Margaret Richards buried there in 1788 age 47. It seems to be the only John Richards burial in the area left.... This John didn't leave a will that I can see, so he's not making it easy for us :/
Baz
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 4, 2016 1:48:18 GMT -5
I'll have a look at this one tonight and see if I can work out how he fits into the picture. I have a couple of other John Richards from St Ives not yet properly identified as well.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 4, 2016 4:15:35 GMT -5
After reviewing the work I have already done along with other available information it does now appear very possible that the two burials mentioned might indeed be those we have been looking for. Margaret Richards of St Ives age 47 buried 5th December 1788 St Ives John Richards of St Ives age 84 buried 12th April 1822 St IvesThat being the case then my recent thoughts that John may have been the son of John Richards and Alice Donithorne are looking more promising. His age at burial would be out by a couple of years on his baptism but we all now know that is nothing unusual. And really, the only other candidates, at least in the general West Penwith area, would appear to be baptised at Sancreed in 1738 or St Buryan in 1739. But Richards families were around that area through the course of existing registers which would tend to suggest they remained around Land's End. I should point out that the 1818 Will of Job Richards provides reason to be cautious. If John was the son of John and Alice as indicated above then he would have been an elder brother to Job Richards. Job mentions his wife and his sister Margery and also a 'kinsman' named John Hollow. And he leaves the residue of his estate to nephew John Curnow (son of sister Alice) whom he also appoints as executor. If the John Richards above was indeed the son of John and Alice then he would have been the only surviving brother of Job yet neither he nor his son/s were mentioned in Job's Will. Of course there is no particular reason why John should have been mentioned but it does seem a little unusual. I still think we need to find someone who might be able to check that Gloucestershire marriage record of John Richards and Margaret Jenkins. I have found no other possible marriage record for the Zennor couple. And there is still one more loose end to be considered - the fate of John and Margaret's second son Martin Richards! CT
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Post by bazza on Oct 4, 2016 7:48:04 GMT -5
I've just come across the following in the CRO's catalogue, recorded in the entry for Zennor church's vestry minute book: " 18 June 1775 - The Overseers are ordered to take proper methods for restoring Margaret Richards and her son to their health, that the former may be enabled to get her living, and the latter be bound out as an apprentice. 16 July 1775 - Ordered that Hannah, the daughter of Margaret Richards to be bound an apprentice on the estate now occupied by William Polmear at Wic [Wicca]. 20 August 1775 - Ordered that John, the son of Margaret Richards being thought by parishioners disordered and improper to be bound as an apprentice to husbandry. Ordered that Hannah Richards be bound by Churchwardens and Overseers on the estate now occupied by Richard Eddy In Cornelli. 5 May 1776 - Ordered that John Richards to bound an apprentice to George Toman, taylor, of the Borough of St Ives" I cannot find a baptism of a Hannah Richards, with a mother Margaret, and the only one in the OPC database without a recorded mother is the daughter of Martin (who was bapt. in 1773, so too young to be apprenticed in 1775; also, we know her mother's name was Bridget). If this is our mystery Margaret in Zennor in 1775, where is her husband John and her son Martin? Son John is said to be apprenticed to a tailor, though the son of Margaret (m. Mary Thomas) was either a shoemaker (his son John's Victorian death certificate) or a miner (daughter Alice's marriage record), so that doesn't fit. Of course, he could have trained as a tailor and switched jobs... If she is our mystery Margaret, a daughter Hannah perhaps suggests that her husband may be the 1730-baptised son of John Richards and Hannah Michell (who we know was alive in 1782, but don't know what became of him). With regards to Job's will; I don't see the omission of John or his children as that big of an upset to his identification. There could be umpteen different reasons for his exclusion, from being sufficiently successful in his own right and his brother not thinking he needed or wanted any financial help, to a family rift and his brother not wanting anything to do with him or his lot. I think the above from the Zennor Vestry Minutes is more of a hurdle. I haven't a clue what happened to Martin :\ I'm going to try and get to the Family History Center tomorrow and hopefully get a look at that Bristol register. Last time I tried to access a 'FHC-only' record at a FHC, their computers kept bringing up the same error message I get at home, and no one there could figure out how to get around it. Fingers crossed that doesn't happen this time. It's a different FHC anyway...
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 4, 2016 15:06:18 GMT -5
This is an interesting find but again it casts doubt of some of the thinking. The details here seem to infer that John Richards is no longer about and that in turn throws some doubt on that 1822 burial. The introduction of Hannah is also interesting and with no baptism to be found and no mention of Martin it occurred to me that perhaps Hannah and Martin might be the same person. That of course would require an error in the parish register or a transcription error by Hoblyn which only a look at the original register might clarify. A transcription error by Hoblyn appears unlikely as the entry in the BTs also states the child's name as Martin but that does not necessarily rule out an error in the register. Nevertheless, we do now have documented evidence that there was a daughter named Hannah and it is just possible she was the Hannah Richards who married James Polgrean at Ludgvan in 1798. My records show that James Polgrean was widowed in April 1816 and married again three months later to Mary Anne Bond. The Ludgvan burial records show that Hannah Polgrean was age 49 when she died giving us an approximate birth year of about 1767 which puts her right in between the baptisms of John and Martin Richards. I have checked and can find no other baptism to account for this Hannah at Ludgvan but unfortunately that does not prove she was the daughter of John and Margaret. Another interesting point about the Vestry Minutes entry is that in 1775 Hannah is ordered to be apprenticed to the estate (Wicca) 'now occupied by William Polmear'. This 'may' have been the William Polmear who had been married to Margaret daughter of John and Hannah Richards although I think there was another William Polmear in the area around that time. Re the possibility of your John Richards being son of John and Hannah - there are a couple of points against that. Firstly the Vestry minutes, although not stating Margaret is a widow, indicate he may be deceased or at least no longer in the area. And the second point is that John son of John and Hannah is mentioned in the Will of his brother James in 1782 when he is bequeathed one shilling. We seem to be going around in circles but I guess if we keep doing that we are bound to stumble over something unearthed in the wheel ruts. CT
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Post by bazza on Oct 4, 2016 22:47:24 GMT -5
I managed to get to a FHC today and got a look at the Bristol marriage. Unfortunately it doesn't give any indication that it might be the man we're looking for. Both parties were of the parish (of St. James, Bristol) and they were married after Banns on 3 Feb 1760. Their witnesses were Rees Morgan and Elizabeth Morgan. None of them were able to sign their name. Most of the Zennor Richards men (at least) were able to sign their names, and the associated name 'Rees' on the marriage seems to me to indicate the parties had a connection to Wales.
With regards to Hannah Polgrean, could she be the daughter of Martin & Bridget, born 1773? Or do you have her accounted for already? I had a look at James Polgrean's will to see if it offered any clues - it did not. He left everything to his wife Mary Ann, and on her death to his 'niece' Mary Ann Thomas.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 5, 2016 6:06:21 GMT -5
The burial of Hannah Polgrean in 1816 gives her age as 49 which means she would have been born around 1767 - six years earlier than the daughter of Martin and Bridget. Given Martin and Bridget were married in 1772 that discounts the possibility their daughter's baptism might have been delayed and thus rules her out as the wife of James Polgrean. Otherwise I don't have anything further on Hannah as yet.
CT
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Post by bazza on Oct 10, 2016 17:57:18 GMT -5
Given the unreliability of ages on burial records, I don't know that this is conclusive proof that Mrs. Polgrean wasn't the daughter of Martin and Bridget, but I agree that the difference in possible birth years is definitely a cause for caution. I can't see any further evidence either way. Of Martin and Bridget's other children, James left a 'will' that only mentions his brothers Martin and Thomas, and Martin's estate was granted to his widow in 1849 - neither of which offer any clues to what happened to Hannah. Do you know what became of the other children (Ann, John, Thomas & Margaret)?
Perhaps seeing as the search for mystery John and Margaret Richards is leading us in circles and sending us (or at least me) a bit loopy (unless you've made some recent progress?), maybe we can switch focus to mystery Mary. This is the wife of Thomas Thomas and mother of Mary Thomas, later wife of John Richards, son of mystery John and Margaret. I have a theory as to who she is, and would like some feedback. Here we go!
Thomas Thomas, the son of George Thomas and Phillis Quick (bapt. 31 Dec 1749, bur. 8 Apr 1830, age 80; both in Zennor), and Mary Richards married 29 Feb 1772 in Zennor. They went on to have five children: Mary (1772–1852; m. John Richards 1791), Phillis (1774-1828; m. Abraham Stevens 1801 ), William (1776-1815; m. Catherine Stevens 1801); Ann (1778-?; m. Richard Thomas 1800); George (1782-?; m. ?) [if you have the answers to any of these question marks, that would be excellent!]. The witnesses to the Thomas-Richards union were George Thomas and Elizabeth Perry. George was either the brother or father of Thomas, most likely. Elizabeth Perry, I believe, is the lass b. 1754 to Daniel Perry and his wife Jane, née Richards. Now, Jane Perry was a daughter of Thomas Richards and Mary Roberts, and she had a sister Mary (the wife of Francis Rose, m. 1742). Mary and Francis Rose had three children (Elizabeth, Jane, and Francis) and their names don't seem to gel with known patterns of the time - why no daughter Mary (the name of the mother and grandmother)? Because Mary Rose already had a daughter Mary - baptised 31 Mar 1738 - before her marriage. This illegitimate Mary is, I believe, the future Mrs. Thomas.
I also think that maybe this Mary Richards (later Thomas) was the Mary Richards mentioned in the will of William Richards of 1769/1771 (also a product of Thomas Richards and Mary Roberts) as now living with him and who inherited some property and stock in Treen (so long as she paid for it). It is possible that, being illegitimate, it was not proper for Mary to live with her biological mother and stepfather and so went to live with a bachelor uncle (I don't know enough about 1700s sociology to say if this is plausible). However, if baseborn Mary was raised by her uncle William, it could be a good reason to name one of her own children William in his honour.
There is a burial for Mary Thomas in Zennor on 2 Feb 1817. Mary was 77 years old, which, given a death early in the year, puts her year of birth at c.1739 - only a year out from baseborn Mary.
Thoughts?
Baz
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 11, 2016 4:52:34 GMT -5
Ann? - If you mean the Ann daughter of Martin Richards baptized at Zennor in 1796 then I believe you have her misplaced. I am reasonably sure she was the daughter of Martin Richards and Jane Phillips and she married William Michell at Zennor 9th March 1816. Ann was buried at Zennor 3rd August 1830 age 34 and William Michell remarried to Ann Major at St Ives the following year. As for John, Thomas and Margaret - I have no further information as yet on Thomas or Margaret but I can tell you more about John. He married Jane Thomas at St Ives 25th November 1801 and had 11 children. Jane was born at St Buryan about 1783 daughter of Martin Thomas and Grace Ellis and she was buried at Barnoon Cemetery as a widow age 88 15th October 1871. John Richards was buried at St Ives 18th November 1855 at the age of 78. ** I had also decided it might be a good idea to put this family aside for a while - time needed to clear some of the clutter from the brain! ** Re Mary Thomas nee Richards - I agree with the possibilities of some of your points. I had already noted in my spreadsheet that the illegitimate Mary baptized in 1738 might be the granddaughter of Thomas Richards and Mary Roberts and so far I have found nothing to alter my thinking. The Elizabeth Perry who witnessed the marriage might well have been the daughter of Daniel and Jane but I am leaving that open as there may have been another baptized during that period before 1713 for which we are missing many records. Hmm - the old 'blinkers' problem surfaces again! I have fallen into this trap as well! You seem to be forgetting that Mary had a husband and that he also probably had parents and siblings after whom children might be named. It is quite possible that the names of all three children came from the Rose family. I think it was more usual to name children for the father's side of the family first so I would be reluctant to concentrate too much on those names at the moment. I also do not know where Francis Rose came from just yet but there was a Francis Rose baptized at St Stephen in Brannel in 1705 to William Rose. Until more is known about Francis it is difficult to determine the origins of the names of his children. But as far as I know she didn't! I have found only three children for Francis Rose - Elizabeth, Jane and Francis. I do agree with the 'possibility' that the Mary Richards mentioned early in the Will of William Richards might be the illegitimate daughter of his sister but at the same time I am keeping my mind open to other possibilities. Yes, but then this Mary's age also makes her projected birth year just a year out from the daughter of George and Phillis Thomas who was baptized at Zennor in December 1840! I don't have a future for her yet either. CT
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Post by bazza on Oct 11, 2016 8:27:02 GMT -5
CT, I was referring to Ann Richards Barnicoat, who was baptised the same day Martin Richards and Bridget Barnicoat were wed at Zennor (2 Feb 1772). Thanks for the info on John. Mary Richards/Thomas' ID is obviously a work in progress I agree that going by naming patterns is not foolproof or conclusive, but without a lot of the vital records surviving (or containing the information we need) it's about all we've got! It just struck me that the name Mary was not used for either daughter, when it clearly had strong Richards ties. If Francis was from afar (and there definitely does not seem to be many Roses around at all) then perhaps a stronger connection with the Richards lot would influence the names of their kids - which is why we get Jane and Elizabeth, both Richards names (also, annoyingly, very common names). I also don't know where Francis Rose came from (nor do I know where he ended up - do you?). I don't think he's the St. Stephen's in Brannel 1705 baptism though. There was a burial for Francis Rose the same year and I think this is him. He was not named in the will of his mother Agnes when she died in 1741, so I do not think he survived her. It may be that Mary's husband was the Francis born in 1714 in Mary Tavy, Devon (not too far from the Cornish border), the son of Francis and Joane. I can't see a marriage or any other children to this couple on the IGI. Here I was referring to William Thomas, the son of Mary Richards (the possible baseborn niece of William Richards) Baz
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 12, 2016 10:06:32 GMT -5
Ah, yes .... as I was looking at my database under the husband's name those children didn't show up on the screen. I will try and remember to have a look around tomorrow to see if I can find them.
CT
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Post by bazza on Jan 26, 2017 5:34:58 GMT -5
G'day CT,
Just wondering if you've come back round to this lot yet? Any insights from the wills on FS? (Not just to this particular family, but other connected ones?)
Cheers,
Baz
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