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Post by sue on Sept 17, 2016 6:25:50 GMT -5
Firstly, thankyou CT for having discovered from the BTs that John Richards'~Alice Donnithorne's 9 November 1735 son was in fact a John, not a Martin – I had puzzled why I was not able to find a probable future for that Martin ( my GGGGGmother's brother.) Turning to the descendants of John Richards~Hannah Mitchell, a probably naïve comment: the 1782 will of James Richards of Zennor has the beneficiaries as - brothers Martin & John
- sister Kathrin Ninnis
- servant maid Margaret Angwin
- sister Hannah Curnow wife of John of Towednack
(Witnesses Hannibal Thomas & Job Morris) The writer of the will is clearly James Richards 9 October 1737 Madron son of John (& Hannah), making bequests to all his still-living siblings. As an aside, one of the deceased siblings, Anne Richards 25 January 1731 Madron to John (buried 17 December 1736 madron daughter of John) has in her baptism entry that she is daughter of John of Lanyon. When I looked at these Richards back in 2013, I noted that Lanyon Farm Bosullow is mid-point between Morvah, Zennor & Madron, which goes a way to explaining the link between the use of the different churches for BMBs..... Back closer to the direct matter under consideration here: having an unmarried brother James in his 40s, per the above will, would be a good reason to name an early son for him.... the early, & perhaps total, children I have for Martin Richards & Bridget Barnicoat being: - Anne Richards Barnicoat 2 February 1772 Zennor (same day as marriage)
- Hannah Richards 17 October 1773 Zennor
- Martin Richards 22 October 1775 Zennor
- James Richards 25 May 1777 Zennor
- John Richards 12 October 1779 Zennor
- Martin Richards 23 June 1782 Zennor
I shall continue to follow this thread with interest...... Sue
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Post by bazza on Sept 17, 2016 9:32:44 GMT -5
Hmmm, you’re right, CT – I seem to have been a little over-enthusiastic with assigning children to John & Hannah. I forgot (or just wasn’t thinking) that the dates were in old style and missed the closeness of Charles & John’s baptisms. So Charles can definitely be dropped from that list of kids, and so probably can the twin girls Elizabeth and Duense in 1738 – there were four other John Richards marriages as Madron around that time, so they probably belong to one of them.
And I’m assuming that will of James Richards didn’t mention any further family – no nieces or nephews that could help us identify which family folks belong to. I think the Martin in that family is pretty well sorted now. Did the John have any family of his own? He could potentially be ‘my’ John (husband of Margaret)
Going back to ‘my’ John, these are the potential baptisms for him I can see, in the 1730-1745 time period (most likely I think to have an eldest son 1766) sticking to the middle of the Penwith peninsula (obviously an awful lot more if we head further afield) - 23 Aug 1730, Madron, s/ John Richards & Hannah Michell - 24 Aug 1734, Madron, s/ Ralph Richards & Honour Sweet - 9 Nov 1735, Zennor, s/ John Richards & Alice Donithorne - 26 Feb 1735/6, Penzance, s/ Benjamin Richards & Anne/Jane James (buried 5 Jan 1742/3, Penzance, so not my guy) - 6 Mar 1738/9, St. Ives, s/ William Richards & Mary ?Boase [on FamilySearch, not in OPC database] - 12 Nov 1742, St. Ives, s/ Charles Richards & Sibella - 9 Jan 1742/3, Zennor, s/ Thomas Richards & Dinah Cisley - 22 Mar 1743/4, Gulval, s/ Francis Richards & Elizabeth Friggens
Looking in St. Ives for burials for John Richards to complement the Margaret Richards burial of 1788 you found, I see there’s one on 12 Apr 1822 age 84, which would put his birthday in c.1738. This fits pretty well with the son of William & Mary at St. Ives. Does this connect up with any of the Martin Richards families we’ve been looking at?
Of course, the Martin may have come from Margaret’s side too……
Baz
P.S. Could you give me a copy of the will of Matthew Thomas 1705?
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Post by bazza on Sept 17, 2016 9:50:01 GMT -5
Actually, I just looked at the image of the parish register for that 1738 baptism at St. Ives and the surname does not look like Richards to me. I starts with an 'H', for one thing. Ah, I see the OPC has it as Hitchens, which I agree with. So, ignore that baptism. Never easy
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 17, 2016 11:35:52 GMT -5
Thanks for your input Sue which amongst other things of interest shows that I have also been a little errant in piecing together some of the Madron parts of these Richards families. I had left out the child baptised 'of Lanyon' because that descriptor seemed to be pointedly identifying a different family. I will look closer at this and at all the other information you have provided and revise some of my conclusions where necessary. Another interesting point you make, and something I had forgotten, is your direct link back to the Richards at Zennor. If my general conculsions on the lines back to Thomas Richards and Mary Roberts are correct then it means you and I are definitely cousins! My 4th Great-grandmother is Loveday Richards who married William Eddy at Zennor in 1802 and then Edward Ladner in 1806. She was the second daughter of that name baptised to William Richards and Alice Berryman with William being son of Thomas Richards and Dinah Cisley. Baz - along with the information from Sue I will be spending some time looking at your John again tonight. I am concerned that I can find no further record of parents John and Margaret or of brother Martin which brings into question whether we might actually have the right John Richards in the first place. I will post more as soon as I have been able to work my way through all of this. Re Matthew Thomas' Will - I am not sure if I have a copy of the original but I do have at least an abstracted transcript. I will send something as soon as I have checked. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 17, 2016 16:41:45 GMT -5
I have had to do a little back-tracking before dealing with some of the items from Sue's post and in that back-tracking I think I have found evidence to show that the 1763 marriage of John Richards and Margaret Harries at Mawgan is NOT that of the John Richards baptising children at Zennor.
Actually there are two marriages in the Helston district that could potentially have been considered for the link to Zennor but after looking at both and then checking baptisms in the area I think they can both be discounted. Following shows what I think are the two families:-
John Richards m. Margaret Harries 4th September 1763 Mawgan in Meneage - Johanna bp. 6th August 1764 Sithney - James bp. 31st March 1766 Breage - James bp. 28th January 1770 Breage
John Richards m. Margaret Kitchen 3rd May 1766 Germoe - Margaret bp. 30th May 1767 Germoe - John bp. 21st August 1768 Germoe - Elizabeth bp. 9th June 1771 Germoe - Catherine bp. 25th July 1779 Germoe
I had considered the possibility that John (1766) and Martin (1769) at Zennor might possibly belong to this second family but I have to throw that thought out given John baptised at Germoe in 1768. And with James baptised at Breage in 1766 they cannot belong there either.
I have not been able to find any other possible marriage for a John Richards and Margaret so we have to consider the possibility the record may be lost. A similar instance with a St Ives marriage of about 1772 was rectified when I found the record in the BTs but I also have BTs for Zennor, Towednack and Morvah and the marriage we seek is not in those.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 17, 2016 17:06:11 GMT -5
- Oops! Seems I have made a little error ....... the 1766 Breage baptism of James Richards was to parents JAMES and Margaret and not John as I previously posted! But that does not actually change the situation as James son of John and Margaret was baptised at Breage 28th January 1770 which is just five months after the baptism of Martin at Zennor. So we are still missing a marriage for the Zennor family. In any case, I am not the only one that has made an error here! I had a sudden urge to find out when and where JAMES Richards married a Margaret and find that there appears to be no record of any such event during the years 1730 to 1770! And as the 1766 baptism of James at Breage is the ONLY baptism of a child JAMES and Margaret between 1730 and 1780 then I think the vicar has made an error and the father should actually be John as I first posted. No .... on further checking it is not the father's name that is wrong with the 1766 Breage baptism of James - it is the mother's name which should be Mary. James Richards and Mary Rogers were married at Sithney 19th January 1766 so son James was already well on the way. Meanwhile, back to the drawing board. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 17, 2016 17:55:29 GMT -5
I can find one very slim possibility for the marriage of John Richards and Margaret but unfortunately I cannot find a way to expand on the information. This record is found in FamilySearch:-
John Richards married Margaret Jenkins 1760 St James, Bristol, Gloucestershire
A slim possibility but still a possibility and it was far from unusual to find West Cornish people marrying in Devon or Gloucestershire during the 18th Century. It would be nice to be able to get a look at this record in the hope that it might give a clue as to the origins of John Richards and Margaret Jenkins. If we were really lucky it might tell us John was from Zennor ...... but that is really just wishful thinking!
CT
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Post by bazza on Sept 17, 2016 18:05:09 GMT -5
CT, a quick note: The Bristol St James registers have been digitised by the LDS and are here ( familysearch.org/search/catalog/1484970?availability=Family%20History%20Library) However, annoyingly, they're restricted to authorised signed-in members and family history centers (though, from my experience, even they can sometimes not get onto the records). I'll look over the other info and report my thoughts soon. P.S. Matthew Thomas' will came through. Thanks! Do you happen to have a copy of his brother George's will too?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 17, 2016 19:23:45 GMT -5
Although she could certainly fit into the family I must question whether Ann really was a daughter of John and Hannah. Why is she the only one baptised with any reference to 'Lanyon'? And if it is her burial in 1736 they why not refer to Lanyon then as well? Also in 1736 is the burial of Elizabeth daughter of John Richards who is possibly the Elizabeth baptised at Madron in 1735. She also could be allocated to John and Hannah but I am fairly confident she does not belong to them. The main reason for that conclusion is the baptism of Elizabeth daughter of John Richards at Morvah in 1735 with she being the only child baptised to a John Richards in that Parish for many years. But then even she is another problem I will refer to in a moment. I suspect Elizabeth of 1735 Madron belongs with Elizabeth Dewens baptised in 1738 as does Mary bp. 1733. Along with Charles in 1729 I think it possible this might be where Ann belongs. On the subject of Elizabeth being 'another problem'. As she was baptised at Morvah I have long had her allocated as daughter of John and Hannah and also as the Elizabeth who married William Daniel at Morvah in 1759. The problem is that I also have her as the widowed Elizabeth Daniel buried at Morvah in 1800 yet she is not mentioned in the Will of James Richards in 1782! In fact if you look at the Richards baptisms between 1730 and 1740 in West Penwith where the father is John then it seems Elizabeth 1735 Morvah simply must belong to John and Hannah. Another John was baptising children at Gulval but in 1735 he baptised a daughter Mary whilst over at Zennor John and Alice baptised John (?Martin of Hoblyn). And of course in Madron we had another Elizabeth baptised just a few weeks after Elizabeth at Morvah. In the case of Elizabeth Daniel there may be an answer to her omission from the Will of James. I have her being widowed in 1781 with her husband William being buried 27th June of that year at Morvah. Perhaps James considered her well enough looked after as a result. One other sibling not mentioned in the Will was sister Margaret who had been baptised at Zennor in 1741. She married William Polmear (Polmeer) at Zennor in January 1867 and was buried the same day her son William was baptised in July 27th 1767. The dilemma now is with brother John who now must be the John Richards baptised at Madron in 1730 there being no other John baptised to a John Richards who could be son of John and Hannah. We now know he was still alive in October 1782 yet I can find no possible burial for him anywhere. Was he the husband of our mysterious Margaret who also cannot be found? It now seems likely that he was but we are left to wonder what happened to them and to son Martin. Just how is it that they all disappeared but John was left behind? CT
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Post by bazza on Sept 17, 2016 20:25:37 GMT -5
There is an administration record for the estate of John Richards of Zennor in 1754 - have you seen this? If it is the husband of Hannah Michell, it may hold some clues for this family... If not, it would still be another piece in the puzzle of the early Richards lot.
Looking through the CRO's catalogue, I see there is also a will for a John Richards, yeoman, of St. Ives from 1806 (which might be our vanishing John, there's no age on the 1804 burial that I assume pertains to this fellow).
There is also wills for Martin Richards, glover, of Penzance from 1717 (assumedly the man bapt. 1667 in Madron) and for Martin Richards of St. Levan from 1742. These might help sort out the Martin-related problems
I'm going to send off my order to the CRO for the Zennor marriage of John Richards & Mary Thomas this arvo, but thought I might get one or two wills while I'm at it. Does anyone already have any of the above wills? Which would be most valuable to our endeavours?
Baz
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 17, 2016 20:43:57 GMT -5
I had not spotted the illegitimate daughter but have now added her to the family. But I also have two further children who probably belong:-
Thomas son of Martin Richards bp. 3rd August 1788 Zennor Margaret daughter of Martin Richards bp. 15th January 1792 Zennor
Thomas I am more sure of because the Martin with wife Jane Phillips baptised their first child William on 28th September 1788 at Zennor with Martin having been son of William Richards and Ann Rodda. I am a little less sure of Margaret as she could just squeeze in to this latter family without the need for delayed baptisms but there was no Margaret in that family. In the family of Martin and Bridget there was Martin's sister Margaret who had married William Polmear as explained in an earlier post.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 17, 2016 21:42:13 GMT -5
When you order the marriage record see if you can get a decent photocopy of the original record. That would give us all the details plus, hopefully, the bonus of being able to see the signiatures of those involved. Those signiatures can be most valuable especially where family members witness marriages. The Wills can be much more interesting but I do have a suggestion regarding that Admon. of John Richards dated 1754. Probably the best that would give us would be the name of the Administrator who may or may not be his wife or a sibling. The better Will to get in this case would be that of Hannah Richards which was proved 12th May 1760 - this should be John's widow. As this is an actual Will it would be much more valuable and should name all the children. The Wills I would consider are all from Zennor:- AP/R/2663 Will of Hannah Richards, widow, of Zennor 1760 AP/R/2849 Will of William Richards, yeoman, of Zennor 1771 AP/R/3082 Will of Thomas Richards of Zennor 1785 AP/R/3785 Will of William Richards, yeoman, of Zennor 1812 AP/R/4310 Will of Martin Richards, tinner, of Zennor 1836 1760 Hannah - most important in this case as it is most likely the widow of John as explained above. 1771 William - I am not quite sure who this might be so it could be a surprise packet. 1785 Thomas - this may be the man who married Dinah Cisley at Gulval in 1732. Useful to me for the same reason as William below but only to you if he happened to name relatives. 1812 William - this is the husband of Alice Berryman and son of Thomas Richards and Dinah Cisley. This one would definitely be of interest to me as there daughter Loveday was my 4th-greatgrandmother but I don't know if it would help you. 1836 Martin - I'm fairly sure this is the son of Martin Richards and Jane Phillips. At this stage I suspect he died unmarried. In terms of the overall picture for Zennor the first four Wills in the list would be the most valuable. Martin's Will of 1836 would not help identify those of the generation we are looking at so at this stage it is probably only a 'nice to have' item. At Morvah there appears to be just one Admon. which is that of John Richards of 1759. Like with the 1754 Zennor document it 'may' only be helpful with the name of the Administrator. John Richards 1806 St Ives - not quite sure who he will be but there were quite a lot of Richards at St Ives including several Johns baptising children right through the 18th Century. The only Richards from your family that I know definitely went to St Ives were Martin and John who were sons of Martin and Bridget. Martin married Jane Thomas at St Ives in 1810 and when he died in 1845 he was buried back at Zennor. John married Jane Thomas at St Ives in 1801 with she having been born at St Buryan about 1783 to Martin Thomas and Grace Ellis. The 1851 Census helps prove where John belongs as it does with Jane but they also named a daughter Grace Ellis Richards which helped. Penzance and St Levan - not sure about either of these Wills. There was a Martin Richards baptised at Paul in 1699 and he married Elizabeth Williams at Paul in 1723. It is possible there could be a connection to Morvah and Zennor but I would suspect the Penzance and St Levan Wills might be connected with Martin at Paul. It is very strange that I cannot find burials for either of these two in the OPC records!! I still think those first four at Zennor would be the most helpful overall. CT
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Post by bazza on Sept 17, 2016 23:27:55 GMT -5
Order sent for marriage record, and the wills of Hannah Richards 1760 and William Richards 1771. I will let you know when I get copies
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 18, 2016 3:56:12 GMT -5
Nice work Baz - I will be looking forward to knowing the contents of each.
CT
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Post by bazza on Sept 19, 2016 21:00:51 GMT -5
Administration of the estate of John Richards of Zennor, granted to Hannah Richards of Zennor, widow, 21 May 1754. Also bound were Matthew Thomas of Zennor, yeoman, and Robert Curnow of Towednack, yeoman. Estate valued at £58.12.0 Inventory completed by Richard Lembrey and Robert Millett. [CRO: AP/R/2571; FHL: 2220960, im. 268-271]
Administration of the estate of John Richards of Morvah granted to Elizabeth Richards of Morvah, spinster (daughter), 11 Jun 1759. Also bound were William Thomas of Morvah, yeoman, and William Daniell of Morvah, joiner. [CRO: AP/R/2641; FHL: 2220960, im. 513-514]
Will of Hannah Richards, widow, of Zennor Written: 27 Nov 1759 Proved: 12 May 1760 - son, John Richards, 5s. - daughter, Kathrine, wife of Isaac Nennis, 5s. - Hannah, wife of John Curnow, £10, paid one year after decease - Daughter, Margaret Richards, £30, paid one year after deceased “and to continue with my executors as long as she and they do think fits in receiving two pounds per year as a servant” - Sons, James and Martin Richards, all the rest and residue Executors: sons, James Richards and Martin Richards The sign of Hannah Richards: O Witnesses: Hannibal Thomas, Samuel Michell
Inventory of Hannah Richards’ estate Taken: 7 May 1760 by Robert Michell and Hannibal Thomas Value: £79.16.0 [CRO: AP/R/2663; FHL: 2220960, im. 582-584]
Will of William Richards, yeoman, of Zennor Written: 12 Dec 1769 Proved: 22 Mar 1771 - Mary Richards, who now lives with me, all estate in Treen purchased from Matthew Daniel, and half of household goods, grey mare, one milch cow, and one ewe sheep, on condition of payment of £20 to exec. after one year - brother, Thomas Richards, sisters Mary, wife of Francis Rose, Elizabeth, wife of John Pascoe, and Alice, widow of brother John, 1 s. ea. - Jane, daughter of Daniel Perry, 40s. yearly [under 21] - John Thomas, son of Hannibal Thomas of Treen, all the rest and residue Executor: John Thomas of Treen The sign of William Richards: R Witnesses: Wm. Wallis, Jn. Finicombe [CRO: AP/R/2849; FHL: 2220960, im. 1242-1244]
Will of Thomas Richards, of Zennor Written: 11 Feb 1785 Proved: 12 May 1785 - wife, Dinah, £12 per annum - three daughters, Mary, wife of John Simons, Jane, wife of Charles Osborn, and Elizabeth, wife of Job Richards, £5 apiece - grandson, Thomas Richards, son of Thomas Richards, £20 - John Baragwannath, who was husband of daughter Grace, 1s. - sons, William and John, lands in Tregarthen and Treveglas, and residue Executors: son, William Richards and John Richards The sign of Thomas Richards: R (sideways) Witnesses: Robt. Michell, Jane Michell, Jane Michell the younger [CRO: AP/R/3082; FHL: 2220960, im. 2036-2037]
Will of William Richards, yeoman, of Zennor Written: 11 Nov 1811 Proved: 30 Dec 1812 - son, Matthew Richards, all estate in Tregerten - son, William Richards, half garden field in Tregerten, half the higher steech with part of the corn and stable and Mowhay - son, John Richards, other half of the fields etc. - daughter, Allice Richards, £8 and spiningturn - daughter, Jane Stevens, 1 guinea (£1.1.0) - daughter, Mary Richards, £8 - granddaughter, Lovdy Eddy, a new gown - sister, Elizabeth Richards, pair of gloves - son, Robert Richards, 1s. - daughter, Diana Richards, 1s. - daughter, Lovdy Ladnar, 1s. - son, Charlis Richards, the rest and residue Executor: son, Charlis Richards Signature of William Richards Witnesses: Christor. Michell, Henry Bryant [CRO: AP/R/3785; FHL: 2220963, im. 1577-1579]
Will of Martin Richards, tinner, of Zennor Written: 10 Jun 1836 Proved: 16 Nov 1836 - mother, Jane Richards, £5 - sister, Jane, wife of Richard Berriman of Zennor, yeoman, all the rest and residue Executrix: Jane Berriman The sign of Martin Richards: M Witnesses: John Polmear, William Berryman [CRO: AP/R/4310; FHL: 2220964, im. 1465-1467]
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