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Post by bazza on Sept 19, 2016 21:21:44 GMT -5
Given that Elizabeth doesn't appear in the will of Hannah Richards (nee Michell), either, I suspect that Mrs. Daniel is not a daughter of that family. I think she's probably the spinster daughter of John of Morvah (d. 1759). William Daniel is associated with that administration also, which adds a little weight...
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Post by zibetha on Sept 20, 2016 3:08:08 GMT -5
Hi, Bazza, as you have enjoyed some success in your document ordering process, may I ask what site you used? I tried to set up an account with my cousin the Queen's service (beta testing, of course, the other day) and it failed. I can't follow up because I cannot activate the confirmation email that I never received. Sigh. Thanks, Z I guess the British Empire can keep running without my $$$
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 20, 2016 20:56:40 GMT -5
Baz - these are most informative but I will need to check through each of them carefully. Having just got the latest version of Windows 10 all installed I am more than a little weary! There were, of course, some hitches with the main 'pain' being Microsoft Outlook when trying to import my .pst files back into the program. It looked for a while that I might lose everything but I managed to work around it and saved everything. Off for some sleep now but later on tonight I will look at those Wills more closely and try to align everyone with what I have found from the PRs. I can already see one or two 'unknowns' where I suspected they would probably fit so hopefully it will be a productive night. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 21, 2016 7:39:16 GMT -5
I think I am a little further on the way to solving this part of the problem. On the evidence of the abstracted Wills supplied by Baz it is now obvious that John and Hannah had no surviving daughter named Elizabeth and even if they had she was not the Elizabeth who married William Daniel. I have been nutting over this for a little while and checking options and have arrived at a couple of conclusions:-
1. With a now large gap from 1730 to 1737 between children for John and Hannah it is possible that the Elizabeth baptised at Madron in 1735 will be their daughter and that she is also most likely the Elizabeth d/o John Richards buried at Madron in 1736. (But there was at least one other John Richards baptising children at Madron at that time and she could have belonged to that family.) 2. The Elizabeth Richards who married William Daniel is now most likely the daughter of John Richards and Jane Ladner, both of Morva, who married at Madron 10th February 1732.
Elizabeth married William Daniel 8th August 1759 just two months after she was granted administration of her father's estate and I now suspect that she might have lost her mother about the same time with the burial of a Jane Richards at Morvah 7th June 1759.
Although both 'of Morvah' I suspect it was probably the husband of Jane Ladner who was baptised at Morvah in 1693 to John Richards and Elizabeth Nicholas. The husband of Hannah Michell I think might have actually been from Zennor.
Those are my opinions 'at the moment' but they could change once I have spent more time on this latest information. I guess I had best start a new spreadsheet for Morvah very soon so that I can keep track of my thinking!
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 21, 2016 13:37:11 GMT -5
I see my 3xgt-grandmother Loveday Eddy was bequeathed a new gown in her grandfather's Will but her grandfather also seems to have perhaps unwittingly bequeathed to us now somewhat of a dilemma! Immediately before the bequest to Loveday Eddy is mention of William Richards' daughter Mary and this is somewhat perplexing as I had never previously known of a daughter Mary in this family! The daughters seem to be named in order with Mary being about where daughter Elizabeth should be yet there is no mention of a daughter Elizabeth in this Will. Both Hoblyn and the Bishops Transcripts record that Elizabeth daughter of William Richards was baptized at Zennor 4th June 1770. The Will confirms information I have found in the registers that there were three married daughters at the time the Will was written - Jane Stevens (Jane Richards m. Benjamin Stevens at Towednack 7th January 1806) and Dinah Quick (Dinah Richards married James Quick at Zennor 26th October 1799) (** Baz noted her as Dinah Richards in his transcript but she is actually recorded as Dinah Quick). The third married daughter was Loveday Ladner who had been first married to William Eddy at Zennor 24th April 1802 and then to Edward Ladner at Zennor 3rd May 1806. The remaining daughters were single with Alice marrying Arthur Fill in 1814. From the time of William's marriage to the time his Will was written I can find no record of baptism for a Mary Richards who could be a daughter of William but there are two possible burials at Zennor for Elizabeth Richards one in 1790 and one in 1811. The dilemma is this - 1. As we have a baptism for Elizabeth in 1770 but she is not mentioned in her father's Will is she one of the two burials in 1790 or 1811? or 2. as we have no baptism for Mary could it be that she and Elizabeth are the same person? With no age or relationship recorded for the two burials it is very difficult to determine who they were and that in turn makes it difficult to find the answer to the above dilemma. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 21, 2016 14:22:03 GMT -5
There is the hint of some sort of clue in the Will of William Richards although as yet I have found nothing to substantiate it. At the very end of the document and after the signiatures of the witnesses the following is written:- and also my will and desire is that my daughter Mary Osbran Richards shall the bed and beding that she do now sleep on after my deceaseCurious that the name 'Osbran' has been written and then crossed out with 'Richards' entered above. Could it be that Mary was an illegitimate daughter perhaps? If Mary was an illegitimate child then I need to find a baptism to prove it but it would certainly indicate then that daughter Elizabeth was probably either the 1790 or 1811 burial at Zennor. CT
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Post by pollyq on Sept 21, 2016 17:19:53 GMT -5
CT - I'm wondering if your missing Mary Richards is the partial entry on the Cornwall OPC website in Zennor 1777, no date, no name or gender but father has been identified as William Richards. The registers on Familysearch haven't been of help, as there's no coverage for that period in Zennor. Bishop's transcripts might help though.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 21, 2016 18:14:44 GMT -5
Hi Polly - yes, I wondered about that entry as well and I am still unsure about it. However I do have a copy of the BTs for that period and that particular entry does not appear in them at all. That leads me to suspect that it was the beginning of an errant entry that may have been corrected by its omission from the BTs.
CT
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Post by bazza on Sept 27, 2016 17:06:00 GMT -5
Been away for the last week or so. Any more leads as to who our mystery John & Mary Richards are?
B
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 27, 2016 22:20:36 GMT -5
Nothing new as yet Baz but still working on and around the problem. Sometimes spending time on other families in the area draws out some useful information. I don't know if it will make you feel any better but this same problem can be found in other families in the area as well!
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Post by bazza on Sept 29, 2016 16:24:57 GMT -5
CT, marriage register came through today (will send it to you). It reveals that both parties were of Zennor, and their witnesses were William Polmear, who was the parish clerk (possibly the same man who witnessed the Richards-Mitchell marriage 30-odd years later) and Job Richards.
Job Richards as witness makes me think of John Richards and Alice Donithorne as possible parents to mystery John (thus b. 1735). However, Job was also the witness on the previous marriage between Ishmael Holla and Elizabeth Curnow, so he may have acted in some PC capacity. Though Elizabeth Curnow may have been Job's niece (daughter of sister Alice), but she would've been about 17 and there's no indication of her minority on the register...
The Richards-Donithorne family don't seem to have any close ties to the name Martin, so, if this is the family of John, perhaps the Martin name came from Margaret's family.
Baz
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Post by sue on Sept 30, 2016 8:39:57 GMT -5
Job Richards was a witness at at least the following marriages that we know of:
1764 Zennor his sister Margery Richards married her 1st husband William Eddy
1765 Zennor he was witness at the marriage of Thomas Osbourne to Catharine Richards.........
1772 Zennor he was witness at the marriage of his sister Alice Richards to William Curnow (other witness was David Curnow, which will be the 1751 brother of the groom.)
Job himself then married in 1774, to Elizabeth Richards, daughter of Thomas Richards & Dinah (per Thos Richards' 1785 will.)
1791 10 September Zennor he was witness at the marriage of John Richards to Mary Thomas
1791 23 July Zennor he had been witness at the marriage of Ishmael Hollow to an Elizabeth Curnow.
I believe (& I may be wrong) this Elizabeth Curnow to be 1765 Towednack daughter of David Curnow~Elizabeth Renoden (not the David Curnow 1751 mentioned above, but David Curnow 1743 -1782), although the names of the children of Ishmael & Elizabeth don't follow a clean pattern – John Elizabeth Mary Wilmot William Ann Thomas & Jenefer, several of these girls' names seeming to be names of her cousins who died young, as children of John Curnow~Jenefer Toman. Elizabeth Hollow nee Curnow I believe to be the burial 1833 Gulval of Trythall age 70....
Elizabeth Curnow 1774, niece of Job Richards as being daughter of Alice Richards and William Curnow, I believe married 1799 Zennor to Thomas Hollow; their children Elizabeth Kitty John Thomas Wilmot & Jane. I believe Elizabeth Hollow nee Curnow was buried 23 July 1850 Zennor age 77 of Tendrine.
That's my twopenneth!
Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 30, 2016 8:48:53 GMT -5
Job Richards' wife was also a Richards being daughter of Thomas Richards and Dinah Cisley and she also had a brother John baptised in 1742. He could also have been the man who married the mysterious Margaret but in either case we still don't seem to have a burial for either he or Margaret. As Job also witnessed the marriage of Ishmael Holla to Elizabeth Curnow the thought of a relationship occurred to me as well. But Ishmael Holla's wife appears to have been born around 1762 and so far she is unidentified. Elizabeth's approximate birth year was determined from her age as recorded at her burial but she could have been a little older or a little younger. The closest possibilities for her are the daughter of Paul and Sarah Curnow baptised in 1764 or the daughter of David and Elizabeth Curnow baptised in 1765, both at Towednack. Unfortunately neither offer any further clues. I think what we need to do is to try and find out just who this Margaret was and at the moment the most likely is the Gloucestershire marriage I mentioned a week or so back for John Richards and Margaret Jenkin. (I am relying on memory for that at the moment) I don't know if FindMyPast has this record but if anyone has access then it would be appreciated if it could be investigated. I've just checked and here is the record we need checked:- John Richards married Margaret Jenkins 1760 St James, Bristol, GloucestershireCT
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Post by sue on Sept 30, 2016 10:07:07 GMT -5
I was reasonably confident Elizabeth Curnow 1864 of Paul Curnow & Sarah Ninnis married Thomas Morley 17 July 1802 Lelant, she of St Ives; one child, then Eliz buried 10 Sep 1816 Lelant age 52.
Having re-read debate over this (emails) 2014, it seems it was "of St ives" that secured this identification for me, as most of her siblings were baptized there.
I now concede we have the 2 x Elizabeth Curnows of mid 1760s to share out between the marriages to Ishmael Hollow & Thomas Morley. And that this is probably a red herring in this particular thread!
Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 30, 2016 15:02:43 GMT -5
Thanks for bringing that discussion to my attention again Sue. As I get time over the next day or so I will check that again but I think you are likely correct with Ishmael's wife being daughter of David and Elizabeth. And I don't consider this a red herring at all - knowing more about Job Richards activities is just adding a few more pieces to the puzzle that will hopefully help to identify John Richards and his unknown wife Margaret.
CT
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