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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 2, 2017 14:55:35 GMT -5
Polly - unfortunately only the Inventory and Admon. of George Lanyon's 1616 Will survive - the Will itself is apparently no longer extant. I have sent three emails with 9 images attached.
CT
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Post by pollyq on Nov 3, 2017 7:54:16 GMT -5
That's so kind of you CT, a very big thank you. Yet again you've saved me oodles of time at the records office. I might be able to get to the records office this month. I have a list as long as my arm and I doubt very much if I'll get to see everything before the CRO closes in May 2018 for their big move to Redruth, so every little bit helps CT. Very many thanks again
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Post by lisab on Nov 7, 2017 15:34:07 GMT -5
Hi Lisab, You're right, the Bosence names would suggest a link, and it would certainly be worth investigating. I've yet to get round to seeing George Lanyon's will dated 1616 at the Cornwall Records Office so if anyone could give me an abstract of the details I would be very grateful. I'm trying to build up a picture of the Lanyon family ties in and around Sancreed/Madron area but it's difficult. And in the back of my head I have the Breage branch of Lanyons and their naming patterns. I've presented this document in the thread earlier, ME Edgcumbe family of Cotehele, Calstock and Mount Edgcumbe, Maker Ref No ME/501 Title: Quitclaim, land in Menyghye Veor, Wendron Date: 1 May 1587 Format: Manuscript Extent: 1 piece Description Parties: 1) Bennett Lanyen and Francis Lanyen, gentlemen, of Breage 2) William Lanyen of Breage, gentleman, father of party 1. Property: Land held of demise of Edwward Sparnan, gentleman, deceased, in Menyghye Veor in Wendron. So William Lanyon of Breage had William Lanyon that married Elizabeth Kearne alias Tresilian in 1572, as Trencom shows earlier in the thread, and also another two sons called Bennett and Francis, both Gentlemen and therefore both of full age. I really do wish the Lanyons were more creative in naming their children!
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Post by trencrom on Nov 17, 2017 23:48:18 GMT -5
I really do wish the Lanyons were more creative in naming their children! This is typical of most if not all families, non-Cornish ones included, at the time. Older children typically were named after their parents and grandparents and additional younger ones after other relatives. This works to our advantage as genealogists when the given names are uncommon, by which I mean uncommon for the relevant area and time frame. So when you have given names like "Sampson" "Ursula" and "Hannibal" in Cornish families, such given names are invaluable in identifying who the grandparents on either side of the family may have been. Even names like "Peter" and "David", while certainly not "uncommon" to our minds, were nevertheless relatively uncommon in seventeenth century Cornwall. But if you have names like "James", "Richard" or "Joan", these were not uncommon, and it seems to me that every generation of every Cornish family back then, if it was big enough, had at least some if not all of the names "John" "William" "Mary" and "Elizabeth". What is interesting about this is the name "Francis", which I think I am right in saying was not common in Cornwall at the time. Since the family of William's wife Margaret is not yet known, the occurrence of this name among the names of William's children MAY therefore provide a clue about the identity of that family. Trencrom
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Post by pollyq on Nov 22, 2017 11:59:58 GMT -5
Hi Trencom, I said that out of pure frustration, having my research spread before me and seeing too many instances of the same name! It's not so much the rarity of the forename in the wider context, but its frequency within the Lanyon family itself that gives me a headache. When looking at records, it's difficult to know which Bennet/Francis/William/John etc I'm looking at. For example, Francis son of William Lanyon of Breage would have been at least 21 years old in 1587, as per the above document. Francis, son of John Lanyon, marries Alice Trewren at Sancreed in 1584. I would think it probable that they are, if not of similar age, then at most 10-15 years between each other. Then in 1608 there is the marriage of Francis Lanyon and Elizabeth at Madron. There are two baptisms at Madron that could be attributed to this couple, 1615 - Bennett, son of Francis Lanyon 1616 - Sampson, son of Francis Lanyon (those forenames again!) This Francis could be the son of Francis Lanyon that married Alice, but you would expect him to appear on the visitations if that was the case. The visitations only show first son Richard, and second son John. Francis would have to be a third son to be old enough to marry in 1608. Or is this the son of Francis Lanyon from Breage? or someone else's son named after either Francis??? Back to the Madron burial records we find, 1656 - Elizabeth, wife of Francis Lanion 1661 - Francis Lanyon, Gent So Francis who married in 1608 is obviously someone of note, but we don't know where he originates. He lived to ripe old age though, if the burials correspond to the same couple. Anyway, the point is I'm not finding naming patterns very helpful at the moment. There are too many patterns creating much confusion. On a slightly more upbeat note, I think I know what happened to Bennet Lanyon, son of William Lanyon of Breage. I believe this is his marriage at Breage, 1589 - 25 Nov - Benett Lanion and Katheren Cocke then in Breage a baptism, 1601 - 10 Oct - Bennett, son of Bennett Lanyne Then we hop over to St Michael Penkevil of all places to find, Baptism - 1609 - 16 Jul - Grace, daughter of Bennat Lanyne Burial - 1616 - 22 Feb - William, son of Benett Lanyne Burial - 1619 - 2 Oct - Cateren, wife of Benedir Lanoine Marriage - 1620 - 20 Jun - Bennot Lanyne and Margeri Wake Burial - 1642 - 5 May - Margerie Lanin, widdowe There is also a John Lanyon in St Michael Penkevil that I am supposing is a son, born to Bennet and Catherine Lanyon in Breage, before the surviving baptism records start in 1597, unless baptised elsewhere. St Micheal Penkevil marriage - 1618 - John Lanyne and Judeth Nowell St Michael Penkevil baptisms - 1622 - Margrie d. of John Lamne 1624 - John s. of John Lanion 1626 - Kateren d. of John Lenyon St Michael Penkevil burials - 1626 - Katteren d. of John Lanion 1629 - Bennodine- s. of ? Lanine Another couple of John Lanyon baptisms in St Michael Penkevil in the late-1640s and 1650s suggests the son of the above John Lanyon baptising children but I've found no marriage for this supposition. Then the Lanyons seem to disappear from the records in the area.
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Post by trencrom on Nov 24, 2017 1:50:44 GMT -5
This Francis could be the son of Francis Lanyon that married Alice, but you would expect him to appear on the visitations if that was the case. The visitations only show first son Richard, and second son John. Not necessarily -- the purpose of the visitations was not to compile a family tree per se, but rather simply to show that a certain person (the informant to the heralds) was either entitled to arms, descended from someone else who was so entitled, or of gentry status. Younger sons may not have been of recognised gentry status, and frequently were not. Two of my 17th century families each had a pedigree in the visitations in which the informant was the eldest son, and in each instance he failed to show either of his younger brothers in the pedigree that he submitted to the heralds. Uncles and aunts in the previous generation of at least one of these families were not shown either, although we know of their existence from other sources. Unfortunately for us, it is often the younger sons or the daughters that are the people that we are looking for! Trencrom
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Post by swiper on Apr 26, 2019 22:49:26 GMT -5
Hi all I just found this note in an online "full text" version of the Harleian Manuscripts (from website - archive.org/about/) is this a reliable source?? In the document there's an entry that says... * "Ped. fin. Comw. 28 Hen. 111. Pasc. No. 2. Int. John de Linyine qu. Hugh de Bello Campo def. Botnole Bichan and Over Bichan." Could anyone please help me to understand what this references?? If it is some sort of document? Perhaps a Court proceeding? If it is have any of you during your previous research obtained a copy of it? If not and you know how I could find that somehow could you please share that information with me so I could source it? The reason I'd like to see what it is - is that I'm wondering if it might highlight which "Pasc" it refers to and if perhaps she is John Linyine (Lanyon)'s daughter then it might help us narrow down that the other Paskis (circa 1600 - the subject of this thread) is indeed William's daughter?? Any thoughts, hints or help very welcome The wording *above, seemed to be from a section about the Lanyons in the Harleian text?? - I'm afraid it's a pretty messy text and I can't seem to see headings or page nos or anything so I'm not even quite sure what I'm looking at here's the other wording that was in the section, just in case it's of interest to anyone... (you've probably all seen these before?) • Rich. Nance and Margaret Lanyne mar. 22 Oct., 1604. Truro Par, Reg. Baldwin, son of Will. Lanjon, bap. 1 Ap., 1561. Blanche, da. of John Lanyon, „ 1682. William, eon of William Lanyon, gent., „ 18 Mar. 1620-21. vri. ^^ «„_ « « Bawdenl „ „ bur. 24 Jun., 1663. > Qwmear Par. Reg. Tamson, wife of „ „ 26 Jun. „ John Lanyon „ 22 July, „ Mr. Tobias Lanion and Jane Tresilian mar. 1670. ) Mr. Will. Lanion of Sancret and Mrs. Keigwin of Mousehole mar. 6 >Bnryan Par. Reg. March, 1672. ) John Lanyon, gent., and Jane his wife mar. 13 June, 1626, at Madron. ") Bp. of Exeter's Susanna, da. of Francis Lanyon, gent., bap. 14 March, 1619, „ ) Tran8cripts(J.M.) Francis Lanyne was mar. to Ales his wyffe 24 May, 1684. ) c^ , t» u /r xjr\ John, son of Francis Lanyne, bap. 10 Dec., 1687. ] Sancreed Par. Reg. (J. M.)
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Post by donne on Apr 27, 2019 12:41:12 GMT -5
Hello swiper, I think you have got hold of the text file version of a digitised book by Google. To make it easily readable you need to go back to the source and select an alternative format, such as pdf. What you have got hold of is some form of pedigree (family tree) such as is published in the various 'Visitations of Cornwall'. I think the ref you quote is something to do with a pedigree ('Ped. fin.') followed by a regnal year 28 Hen. III (28 October 1243-27 October 1244) and possibly 'Pasc.' has got something to do with the date (Pascal=Easter)
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Post by trencrom on May 2, 2019 22:26:44 GMT -5
"Ped. fin." does not refer to a "pedigree". It is a Latin abbreviation meaning "feet of fines", which was the record of a transfer of land, done by means of a fictitious lawsuit whereby the vendor and the purchaser had the land transaction recorded in the courts. The document detailing all of this was recorded in triplicate with the bottom portion, or "foot", being retained as the court records, the other two portions being retained by the vendor and purchaser respectively.
"Qu". after John's name means that he is the querent, r plaintiff. Hugh de Bello Camp, i.e. Hugh de Beauchamp ("Bello Campo" is the Latin version of the name "Beauchamp") is the deforciant, or respondent.
Botnole Bichan and Over Bichan is presumably the name of the locality/localities where the land in question was situated.
Tbe Cornwall Feet of fines have been published many years ago, and are in many large libraries. Check to see if this transaction is among those included therein.
Trencrom
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Post by swiper on May 14, 2019 3:06:29 GMT -5
Thanks very much Trencrom - that Latin translation was very helpful. I was able to find the "case" in the Feet of Fines book. It doesn't give any link to the Pasca/Paskis Lanion that I'm trying to pin down as the "case" is some generations earlier in 1244. It does point to the John referenced as being "John de Linyeine (Lanyon in Madron)" as the Plaintiff but the only other detail it gives about his family is that his Father is Roger. It speaks of Roger having a Charter with Sir Hugh about a stream that runs through the land they're speaking about in the case around an area called Retsic/Rissick to Netcuran. I'm not familiar with Cornwall at all so I don't know if this would help anyone else identify this John and Roger further?? If anyone thinks it could help in any way let me know if you want me to transcribe the whole of the text from the Feet of Fines book here. The search for the Father of the elusive Paskis continues... thanks Swiper :-)
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Post by trencrom on May 17, 2019 4:22:09 GMT -5
I have had a look at the fine in question. The land that was transferred is actually two small parcels of land, one being at Lower Drift in Sancreed parish, and the other being at Little Bosullow in Madron parish. Hugh sold the land to John Lanyon, who was to hold it as a feudal tenant from Stephen de Beauchamp and his heirs. Stephen in addition to being the overlord of these lands also had a mill at Netcuran in St Buryan parish, and the stream that you refer to ran through other land that John Lanyon had at Retsic in St Buryan parish. It reads as if John was guaranteeing no interference, on his part, in the water supply to the mill.
Trencrom
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jc2
Noweth
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Post by jc2 on Aug 9, 2019 5:56:47 GMT -5
Well, tonight, I've again looked at the will of John Coode, in Breage, in 1612. He does not list a brother in law as Walter Borlase, but does give one as John Totbarnon, or some such name. I can find no record for said John T...……, and I'm probably incorrectly reading the name. Do you have any ideas?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 9, 2019 6:56:33 GMT -5
Do you have a Reference Number for this Will? I cannot seem to find it anywhere in the CRO Catalogue or the PCC Wills. I thought if I could get a look at the original I might be able to decipher that surname for you.
CT
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Post by pollyq on Aug 9, 2019 13:21:12 GMT -5
This is the will CT. Ref No: AP/C/333 Title: Will of John Coode of Breage Date: 1614-1615 Format: Manuscript Extent: 3 pieces Description: Will and inventory, listing muskets, tin and tin working tools. It's the first time I've looked at this will and it's very interesting. The name of the brother in law looks like John Trevarnon, but I could be wrong CT, so please take a look. The names in the will; Wife, Margaret Son, John Daughters, Blanch, Loveday and Thomasine. Daughter, Elizabeth Gayre, wife of John Gayre. And Elizabeth Gayre, daughter of John Gayre. And the following document to the will mentions; John Noye of the town of Newlyn and Edward Noye of the same Blanch wife of Edward Noye, daughter of John Coode deceased. Looking at Vivian's Visitations, it's the Coode family of Methleigh, Polapit Tamar and St Austell where this family belongs. ukga.org/england/Cornwall/visitations/I had a look at the marriages on the Cornwall OPC and one jumped out as a possibility for John Coode's brother in law. Menhenoit - 12 Jun 1597 - John Treverno of 'Sinne' and Francys Coode of the parish. According to the pedigree John Coode of Breage had an uncle called Francis, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that John had a sister called Frances/Francys, although she isn't mentioned on the pedigree. Not sure about the place name Sinne, my first thought is Sithney, and the OPC shows a marriage of a John Trevarnoe at Wendron in 1578. John Coode's daughter Elizabeth is mentioned as wife of John Gayre in the will, and Gere of St Keverne on the pedigree. There is a pedigree for a family called Gayer in Vivian's Visitations which might be worth investigating as it mentions a John Gayer of Trenbrace in St Keverne. Very interesting family Just to add, the will also mentions William Orchard as one of the executors, and John describes him as my ..... , but I'm struggling to decipher what was written. It looks vaguely like neighbour? but not the same spelling. The pedigree shows there is a family connection on his brother Edward's side with William Orchard, but it bothers me that I can't see what is written.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 9, 2019 16:41:52 GMT -5
Thanks Polly - I now have a copy of the Will. Not sure if you noticed but there are actually 12 images for that Will although there are only 7 physical pages. In case you had not noticed and you have less than 12 images the reason is that several pages from Will Number 334 are mixed in. There are about 7 or 8 images for the Code Will (possibly even 9) which is AR/C/333 and then several pages for AR/C/334 followed by the last few images for John Code.
Anyway, the surname in question is definitely TREVARNON but I am not sure about the word afrer William Orchard's name. Looking around the other pages of the document the best I can come up with at the moment is (possibly) 'pastour'.
I might try and take another look at it after I have had a few hours sleep.
CT
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