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Post by pollyq on Aug 9, 2019 16:58:37 GMT -5
I'm sure you're right with pastour CT! William Orchard is described as Vicar of Breage on the Coode pedigree, so pastor would make sense. thank you. I will also go back and look at the rest of the images as I didn't look past Will no.334. The CRO index suggested only 3 physical pieces, so I've missed some! Thank you for telling me about that, or I would have been none the wiser
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Post by pollyq on Aug 9, 2019 19:11:20 GMT -5
Hi jc2, I've had another look at the wills index on the Cornwall Records Office website and there are a few wills you might want to study if the surname Treverno/Trevarnoe interests you. There is; Ref No: AP/T/241 Title: Will of Harry Trevarnawe of Sithney Date: 1614-1615 Format: Manuscript Extent: 2 pieces Description: Will and inventory. and Ref No: AP/T/738 Title: Will of John Trevarnow of Sithney Date: 1643 Format: Manuscript Extent: 2 pieces Description: Will and inventory. Then of course the will of Margaret Coode of Breage, Ref No: AP/C/857 Title: Will of Margaret Coode of Breage Date: 1635-1636 Format: Manuscript Extent: 1 piece Description: Will. There are also a whole bunch of Code/Coode wills (some in Sithney as well as other relevant areas) if you haven't seen them already. You can access them on the FamilySearch website. I'd be interested to know how you get on with your research Oh yes, and there is this record at the CRO that shows one John Trevernow with interests in the Menheniot area, Ref No: BRA991/180 Title: Settlement, property, Menheniot Date: 1 Mar 1608 Format: Manuscript Extent: 1 piece Description: Parties 1) Henry Arundell, esquire, of Truthall 2) John Trevernow and James Martyn, yeomen. Property: Truthall, Talga, Bogullas, Tregrill, Tregondale, Trelawny, Tregarrack, Trenant, Penans and Butterdon Wood. Term: For lives. Also another interesting record with the name John Trevarnow, Ref No: AR/14/57 Title: Tin accounts, John Trevarnow Date: 1632-1639 Format: Manuscript Extent: 1 piece Description: Tin accounts of John Trevarnow, as toller to Arundell family of Lanherne. John Arundell, esquire, named 1638-1639. Names of workings or tin bounds are sometimes given. 7 papers tied together. Just to finish, this record might be a clue to the origin of the surname? EN Enys family of Enys, St Gluvias Ref No: EN/2 Title: Deed of partition, Sithney, St Ewe and St Gluvias Date: 6 Aug 1454 Format: Manuscript Extent: 1 piece Description: Parties: Elizabeth Feras and William Peryn, cousins and heirs of William Trewranow. Deed of partition of the lands they hold in common which once belonged to William Trewranow in the vills of Trewranow in [?] [Trevarno in Sithney?]; Trerysa in Sithney, Treluswal, St Gluvias, Trewelyzek [?] Trelissick in St Ewe, Polsou [?] in St Ewe, Tregyan in St Ewe, and Govyly in Cuby. Elizabeth to have moiety of vill of Trewranow, vill of Polsou, rents from corn mill of Govili and 20 marks of rents in Trerysa. William to have vills of Trerysa and Treluswall and piece of land in Trewelezek. Witnesses: Randulph Reskymer esquire Richard Tregos esquire and John Tremayn. Endorsed: number 13. In Latin.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 10, 2019 2:45:50 GMT -5
Hi Polly - excellent, that will save me another look! 'Pastour' is certainly the most sensible interpretation I can think of and it did cross my mind to try and check for any clue to William Orhard's occupation. If you have any trouble with the additional images for the Will then let me know. From memory the last two digits of the image numbers should range from about xx76 to xx89. (I don't remember if it was 1876-1889 or 1976-1989) CT
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Post by lipkatatar on Feb 17, 2020 22:45:00 GMT -5
Below are details of of a legal dispute over the manor of Trewynard involving John Lanyon, gent. and his wife Margaret. Can we fit them into the Lanyon pedigree? John Lanyon and others vs John Nance alias Trengove - 1600 aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/C78/C78no449/IMG_0010.htm (7 images) Martyn Trewynard, Esquire, had one son, Deophelus, and four daughters: Margaret (m. John Lanyon, gent.); Jane (m. John Trewbodye, gent.); Anne (m. Christopher Maynwaringe, Esquire); Fraunces (m. Raphe Ellyot, clark). Around 1580, Martyn mortgaged the manor of Trewynard to John Trengowe/Nance for £500. Before the mortgage had been fully repayed Martyn was imprisoned in the Fleet Prison in London where he subsequently died. The complaint was that John Trengowe and other creditors had taken advantage of his heir, Deophelus being under 18 years old and had pressured him into agreeing to repayment arrangements that were "corrupt and usurious". By 1600 Deophelus must have been dead, as his sisters claimed to be the "common law heirs" of Martyn Trewynard. The court ruled that if the complainants paid John Trengowe £450 within one year they could recover the lands of Trewynard then in the hands of John Trengowe. Christopher Maynwaringe vs Margaret Lanyon - 1609. aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/C78/C78no132/IMG_0023.htm (4 images) This case follows on from the dispute with John Trengowe alias Nance in the year 1600. John and Margaret Lanyon had entered into an agreement with John Trengowe/Nance over their share of the manor of Trewynard (a quarter share of one third of the manor). If they did not pay £138 10/- plus £4 charges by September 1603 they would have conceded all rights in the property to John Trengowe. John and Margaret could not pay but Christopher Maynwaringe agreed to take over the Lanyon's mortgage from John Tregowe on the condition that if he were not repaid by October 2004 then he would then own the property. John Lanion agreed to the above conditions but died shortly afterwards. Margaret failed to honour the agreement with Christopher and the court appointed Henry Thoresby to investigate the case. On 18th February 1608 he gave his opinion that Margaret should repay Christopher the agreed money. Half to be paid at the next Feast of St John the Baptist and the rest the following Christmas, plus £10 damages. Payments to be made at the north porch of Exeter Cathedral. The court confirmed Thoresby's recommendation. It does not say whether Margaret complied.
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Post by pollyq on Feb 18, 2020 23:20:28 GMT -5
Hi Lipkatatar, I don't have a definitive answer, but there could be clues. I've found this on the CRO catalogue, and I'll wager it's the same John and Margaret Lanyon. Reference number: PD/2/7 Date: Michaelmas 1599 Format: Manuscript Extent: 1 piece Final concord, Manor of Treskillard, Illogan and Camborne Parties: 1) Alexander Thomas alias Pendervas [Pendarves], querent 2) John Lanyon, esquire and Margaret his wife and John Trewren, gentlemen, deforciants Consideration: £60 sterling Manor of Trescullard [Treskillard] with appurtenances and six messuages, six gardens, sixty acres of land, sixty acres of pasture, one hundred and twenty acres of furze and heath and forty acres of moor, with appurtenances in Trescullard [Treskillard] Veor, Truscullard [Treskillard] Vean, Trewone [Troon], Polcarrowe [Polcarrow], Newton, Carmothe?[Carn Marth], Logan [Illogan] and Camborne Dated at Westminster in the octave of St Michael in the forty first year of Queen Elizabeth after the Conquest. Was this an inheritance through Margaret Treskillard, wife of Richard, that John Lanyon was selling? There is also the will extracts that you kindly looked up and posted several years ago. Yikes, it was 2016, where did the time go? Another Lanyon will from Murray Vol 20. John Lanyon Esq. of Merrine, died June 1605, administration of his goods granted to his widow Margaret on 18 March 1605. This was "prayed" by Richard Vivian, gent., Otes Merifeild, gent., William Marfeild, gent. and Thomas Speare. Household goods and items connected with a small farm, including a harrow, a cornpike, two pigs, etc. Total: £10 12/- 3d. His death would tie in with the above dispute. However, I'm not sure where he fits in exactly, but it points to him being a descendant of Richard and Margaret Treskillard. And then there is the connection to John Trewren. Is this father or a brother of Alice Trewren, Francis Lanyon's wife? His association with St Merryn also suggests a closer connection to Richard Lanyon's side of the family than the Breage based Lanyons. A lot to think about, I'll have a mull and see if I can dig up anything else.
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Post by lipkatatar on Feb 19, 2020 11:17:49 GMT -5
Hi Pollyq! Thanks for the interesting post. The Treskillard, Trewen connection would seem to suggest that this John was a direct descendant of John and Margaret Treskillard, probably a son or grandson. There is a record that shows that Deiphobus Trewynnard took legal action in a property dispute in 1588, which means he would have been born no later than the mid 1560s, and not much earlier, as he was under 18 years of age at his father's death sometime after 1580. Unless Margaret was a lot older than her brother, then she would have been in the same generation as the grandchildren of Richard Lanyon and Margaret Treskillard. It may be that she married a previously unrecorded son of John Lanyon and Phillipa Myleton. If Margaret Trewynnard was older than her brother she could possibly have married Richard and Margaret Treskillard's second son, also named John. No 2 Exchequer- Depositions by Commission - Elizabeth County - Cornwall. Date - 28-29 Eliz. 1586. Commission - 8 June; Interrogation & Deposition, 8 Oct at Trewrowe. Term - Mich. No.- 15. Plaintiff - Deiphobus Trewunard. Defendant - John Calwoody. Summary - Right and title to tenements called Tregere Veez alias Tregere Wartha, and Penhale Power.etc The Catalogue of Depositions by Commission also has a record that dates the dispute between Walter Orchard and Richard, John and Jane Lanyon to around 1613. The reference to the "outlaw" Richard Laynon as being father of the defendants is clearly wrong. They must be referring to Richard the defendant's grandfather or to Richard himself. No 2- Exchequer- Depositions by Commission Charles I County -Cornwall. Date - 10 Ch I, C. 25 June, I.& D. 20 August, St Columb. Term-Mich. no.- 41. Plaintiff - Walter Orchard, late under Sheriff of Corn. Defendant - Richard Lanyon, John Lanyon, Jane Lanyon. Subject - Lands called Inegeneger in the P of St Ervan, and Treveglas in the P of St Merrin (Corn.) The Catalogue of Depositions by Commission can be found as an Annexe to Vol 38 of the Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper etc. archive.org/details/annualreportdep03offigoog/page/n7/mode/1up
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Post by lipkatatar on Feb 19, 2020 12:03:43 GMT -5
I got the date of the reign of Charles I mixed up with James I. The Orchard - Lanyon dispute would have been in 1634/5.
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Post by trencrom on Feb 20, 2020 7:23:41 GMT -5
I don't know anything about the Treskillard family per se, but the immediate question in my mind after reading the foregoing is that, while the hypothesis that the manor of Treskillard came to John and Margaret from Richard Lanyon and his Treskillard wife reads well, it may not be right. I remember researching the Carminow family years ago and I discovered that the manor of Carminow went out of the hands of the Carminow family long before that family became extinct.
I would therefore suggest that we need to ascertain what the previous history of that manor was, in particular that Richard Lanyon's father-in-law had previously held that manor. If it turns out that he did, then the case is then so much stronger for John being a descendant of his.
A manor is a lot of land to be passed on at minor gentry level to another family by the marriage of a daughter, unless the daughter is also an heiress.
For the same reason it is unlikely to have descended to a second son of a minor gent. Such a thing happening would imply that Richard Lanyon had a lot more other land in his possession to pass on instead to his eldest son and heir. Unless, of course, the heir died and the second son therefore became the new heir and inherited accordingly.
The other question that comes to my mind is the relationship of John Trewren to John and Margaret. If the John and Margaret Lanyon that pollyq found are the same John and Margaret that lipkatatar was asking about, then Margaret was the daughter of a Trewinnard. If the manor did not come to John and Margaret through the Trewinnards --which is a possibility that should be checked, given that Margaret is named in the above fine -- then it must have come to John either through purchase, or through inheritance from his own parents. But the mention of Trewren gets me thinking that perhaps there were coheiresses at some earlier stage and that, say, half the manor came to the Lanyons through one coheiress and that the other half came through the other coheiress to Trewren.
I would therefore suggest that inquiries be made to see if John Trewren has a Treskillard descent. This may in turn then pinpoint the devolution of the estate and in turn allow for the accurate placing of this John and Margaret Lanyon in the Lanyon pedigree.
Trencrom
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Post by lipkatatar on Feb 20, 2020 10:27:49 GMT -5
Hi Trencom!
I take on board everything you say in your post. However, for me, the most telling thing about John Lanyon, Esquire, husband of Margaret is the fact that he was an "Esquire". It is clear that this John Lanyon had very little money or property of his own, so the only way he could have become an Esquire was if he was the son of an Esquire whose wealth and social status were such as would have allowed one of his younger sons to assume the title of Esquire. This would suggest that he was either the son of Richard Lanion and Margaret Treskillard or of John Lanyon and Philippa Myleton. Just a theory.
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Post by lipkatatar on Feb 20, 2020 20:13:40 GMT -5
Margaret Treskillard brought 300 acres mainly at Treskillard to her marriage to Richard Lanyon - one half acre and two ferlings or quarter acres (the old Cornish acre was around 300 acres). It was not uncommon for a mother to pass on property she had brought to a marriage to younger children of the marriage. The land at Treskillard, etc. later sold in 1599 by John Lanyon and Margaret Trewyniard amounted to 300 acres.
The Cornish Lands of the Arundells of Lanherne: Fourteenth to Sixteenth Centuries. H.S.A.Fox, O.J.Padel - Devon & Cornwall Record Society. p188.
"Richard Lanyen, in right of his wife, 1/2 acre in Trustulard, in socage, and 1 ferling in Tregoys [and] 1 ferling in St Erth and owes suit; rent 17d."
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Post by trencrom on Feb 21, 2020 1:46:50 GMT -5
Hi Trencom! I take on board everything you say in your post. However, for me, the most telling thing about John Lanyon, Esquire, husband of Margaret is the fact that he was an "Esquire". I understand what you are saying, but I wouldn't read too much into him being called this, unless he is consistently being called this by others. He might have just been promoting himself. There were a lot of ambitious yuppies (as we would call them today) in Tudor and Stuart times. It is clear that this John Lanyon had very little money or property of his own, so the only way he could have become an Esquire was if he was the son of an Esquire whose wealth and social status were such as would have allowed one of his younger sons to assume the title of Esquire. This would suggest that he was either the son of Richard Lanion and Margaret Treskillard or of John Lanyon and Philippa Myleton. Just a theory. Younger sons typically did not have their father's social status, because unless some land was enfeoffed on them by means of a fine (as described in my following post) the father's holdings went instead to the eldest son. A father who had so much land that his younger son was consequently endowed with land to the point of being an Esquire was probably of higher status than an Esquire himself. The younger sons had to make their own way in the world, which many of them did through engaging in trade or in the legal profession, or else they had to marry very well. An advantageous marriage to an heiress may have allowed the groom to remain in the same social class. Trencrom
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Post by trencrom on Feb 21, 2020 5:09:44 GMT -5
Margaret Treskillard brought 300 acres mainly at Treskillard to her marriage to Richard Lanyon - one half acre and two ferlings or quarter acres (the old Cornish acre was around 300 acres). I am seeing varying figures for the size of a Cornish acre, depending on who you read. Some give it as around 270 statute acres. Some however say 120 or even 60-64 statute acres. It therefore seems to have varied over time. I get the distinct impression that it decreased over time relative to the statute acre. It was not uncommon for a mother to pass on property she had brought to a marriage to younger children of the marriage. Prior to the British 1870 Property Act a woman's property automatically came to her husband upon their marriage. She could not thereafter unilaterally dispose of it as she chose, whether to her younger children or whoever. It would not automatically go to a younger child unless that child became the eldest surviving child and therefore the heir. What could be done though was for the husband and his wife to convey the property to trustees who would then reconvey the property to the husband and wife but with a stipulated remainder to whoever it was that they wanted to be the one to possess the property after their deaths. There would of course be a record of this transaction as a fine. [ The reference you make to Richard having land in the right of his wife seems to indicate that Margaret inherited this property. Whereabouts though is Trustulard?
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Post by lipkatatar on Feb 21, 2020 23:14:17 GMT -5
In the entire history of the Lanyons, down to the Visitations in 1620, there have only been 5 Esquires: Richard, married to Margaret; their son John, married to Philippa; their son Francis, married to Alice; their son Richard, married to Jane; John, parents unknown, married to Margaret. If John's use of the title Esquire had not been accepted by the rest of the Lanyon family he would never got away with using it. By the end of the 16th century the title Esquire had little legal status, but in a relatively closed community like Cornwall its use would have been dependent on being accepted by others. The fact that three "gentlemen" proved his will suggests that this John was being taken seriously.
Reference to the 1870 Property Act is a bit of a "red herring" as there was never any suggestion that the land at Treskillard could have passed to a younger son against the wishes of the father. All property transfers required the agreement of both husband and wife no matter whether the property was brought to the marriage by the man or woman.
The heir, whether eldest son or someone else, only obtained his or her rights over the property when the previous owner died. I do not know how a presumptive heir could prevent property being disposed of during the lifetime of the previous owner. Even if the property was "entailed", it would appear that the seller could renounce his heir's rights when transferring the property.(Possibly I have been misreading the fines I have been examining.) There seems to have been little to prevent parents from bestowing property on their other children during their lifetime.
Complicated settlement schemes involving clerics would probably not be required when transferring property to a child. Transfers to children were almost never made by means of fines. In fact, I was surprised to discover how rarely any property was transferred in this way. It would appear that such property transfers were popular in the thirteenth and fourteenth century but their use steadily dropped off. According to the National Archives, in the 330 years from the reign of Henry VIII till the transfer of property by fines was abolished, there was total of 51,987 such transactions. This works out at an average of only 170 property transfers by fine a year for the whole of England.
As far as I know, Treskillard has never changed its location, it still lives to the south-east of Camborne.
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Post by lipkatatar on Feb 25, 2020 6:45:30 GMT -5
I have been in contact with Vance Mead, who is involved in transcribing and indexing the record images on the AALT website, to ask about the apparent lack of "feet of fines" records. I quote from his response below.
"Common Recovery was used for property transactions starting in the mid-15th century. I don't think it was ever as usual as the fine.
I did a count of the two actions recorded in Common Pleas. They increased dramatically in the second half of the 16th century. Probably because of more land changing hands after the Dissolution of the Monasteries.
concord recovery 1430 62 1440 67 1500 31 49 1530 39 49 1554 38 25 1563 355 118 1571 736 156
I should add that these are for one term in each year mentioned. So there would be something like 4 times this many in a year."
The "concord" records mentioned above will be the final documents in "feet of fines" type transactions, and the figures for both concord and recovery records will cover the whole of England. I checked the records for the three month term in 1571 mentioned by Vance and discovered around 50 such records for Cornwall. This figure would equate to 200 such records per year for Cornwall and 20,000 in a century. This would suggest that there might be tens of thousands of Cornish property transactions yet to be discovered among the un-indexed Common Pleas files.
I understand that the National Archive is now trying out character recognition software to help with the transcription of medieval records. This should greatly speed up the indexing of the Common Pleas files.
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Post by lipkatatar on Feb 28, 2020 22:41:49 GMT -5
Identity of Isabel Ruthfrey, wife of John and mother of mother of Richard Lanyon. I believe that Isabel Ruthfrey, the wife of John and mother of Richard Lanyon may have been an heiress of a Richard Ruthfos. In a legal dispute from 1504-1515, William Lanyon claims a right to part of the estate of the late Michael Ruthfos. Michael left his large estate to a Thomas Ruthfos and his heirs, with remainder to a John Ruthfos and his heirs, and further remainder to a Richard Ruthfos and his heirs. William Lanyon appears to claim that as Thomas and John Ruthfos died without heirs he, as son of Richard Lanyon, has a right to the property. If Richard's mother Isabel was the daughter or heiress of Richard Ruthfos this could explain how he got the name Richard. The Ruthfos family appear to have been quite active in the fifteenth century with connections to the Arundell's of Lanherne. Variations of the name include Rudfos, Roderfos and Rutherfos, (Henry VIII Pardon Roll) so Ruthfrey is not too far a stretch. aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/ChP/C1no341/IMG_0085.htm
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