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Post by pollyq on Jan 28, 2014 8:35:10 GMT -5
I've been researching the Shetford/Shutford branch of my tree which terminates with Thomas Shetford. He married a Paskis Lanion in St Just in Penwith, 13 Jun 1625. When I added this info on my tree on Ancestry, I had quite a few hints from family trees for Paskis Lanion. Everybody (bar one) seemed to agree she was the daughter of "Richard Lanion and Jane Mooringe". A couple of trees have pages from what looks like a website to substantiate the 'facts', but I can't find it on the web myself. They have her marrying Thomas Shetford, despite the fact that she would have been 13 years of age, and although not unheard of, it's not something you come across in this stratum of society. None of the research quotes sources. To be honest, it looks like a car crash of mis-matched info. Basically what it says is that Richard Lanion/Lanyon married Jane Mooringe in 1608 (doesn't say where!) Their daughter, Paskis "Pascha" Lanion/Lanyon born 1612 in Gwinear (no baptism and no date given) If you have an active Ancestry subscription, you can view one of the trees here, trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/27662186/person/12000925686?pgNum=1Just some basic digging on the Cornish Genealogy Database brought to light a will by a William Lanyon of Sancreed, written in 1624. WILLIAM LANYON of Sancreed written: 24 Dec 1624 proved: 8 Feb 1624/5 poor od Sancreed - 3 sh. poor of St. Just - 5 sh. poor of Gulval - 12 d. poor of Maddern - 12 d. poor of Antony - 12 d. poor of Buryan - 12 d. daughter: ELIZABETH - mare, 3 sheep, calf, mare colt JOHN her son - calf & a sheep WILLIAM her son - calf & a sheep daughter: JANE - calf, 1 sheep, brazen crock daughter JANE's child - a ewe lamb daughter: PASKAS - 4 kyne, mare, 10 sheep, 10 pounds youngest daughter: ELIZABETH - 4 kyne, 10 sheep, 10 pounds son: WILLIAM - all my part of tin and tin stuff, 13 pounds, 6 sh., 3 d. son: JOHN - all the rest & executor no signature witnesses: REGINALD DAVY, THOMAS FLAVELL, BENET LANYON Inventory taken 15 January 1624/5 by BENET LANYON, REGINALD DAVY & JOHN BAVLLEN als. PETER AP/L/256 Unfortunately I've not been able to find a baptism in Sancreed for Paskas daughter of William, but her siblings were baptised in Sancreed between 1593 (the eldest Elizabeth) and 1607 (the youngest Elizabeth) Found on Sancreed OPC website. William Lanyon married a Jane in Sancreed 19 Nov 1592. (Sancreed OPC website) Since this Paskas Lanyon would have been born at the latest 1606, she would have been at least 19 years old and would have been an attractive proposal for marriage since she had just inherited some livestock and 10 pounds (whohoo!) To me she seems the obvious choice for Thomas Shetford's wife. Does anyone agree with my findings?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 29, 2014 0:08:40 GMT -5
Some of the stuff that can be found in this trees is absolute drivel! If Thomas and Paskus married at St Just then it is logical to begin looking in that area for possible family connections. The abstracted Will of William Lanyon indicates that he is probably the father of the bride. I would not be overly concerned about not finding a baptism for Paskus although it is certainly frustrating and annoying. The fact that she is named in her father's Will is the important thing at the moment. It is possible that the baptism record is no longer legible or that it has been lost due to damage but it is equally possible that she was baptised in a nearby Parish. When you are looking for something that early ecords for many Parishes no longer exist or are in a poor state of repair. St Buryan is right next to Sancreed but the earliest Parish Register is 1653. Sennen and St Levan are just beyond St Buryan but records for those Parishes prior to 1700 are lost. The alternative might be Bishops Transcripts, if they survive, but even then there are usually gaps of sometimes 2 or more years. But I do agree that the family of William Lanyon is most likely where your Paskus belongs. CT
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Post by lipkatatar on Jan 31, 2014 10:35:23 GMT -5
There is nothing new in the recent postings relating to Thomas Shetford's wife Paskis Lanion. She may have been the daughter of Richard Lanyon and Jane Moring or she may have been the daughter of Richard's uncle William and his wife Jane.
We know that Richard Lanyon's eldest son would have been 15 years of age in 1625. It is possible that Richard's eldest daughter, Paskis could have been born before her brother, in which case she would have been 16 years of age or over in 1625. It is not logical to ridicule unsupported claims regarding her age and then use these same claims about her age to support an alternative theory about which Paskis Thomas married. Also, if the relative wealth of his future wife was a major influence on Thomas Shetford's decision then he would more than likely have chosen the richer Paskis, the daughter of Richard Lanyon.
This is a question that requires further research, not more drivel speculation.
If Thomas Shetford's wife was the daughter of William Lanyon then she loses the rich Devonshire ancestry of Jane Moring as well as the royal ancestry of Alice Trewren. However, as Alice Trewren's pedigree overlaps with that of John Lanyon's wife, Phillippa Myliton, then all Paskis' royal links from William I to Edward I remain intact.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 31, 2014 12:50:36 GMT -5
I think the bigger point here is that the Will of William Lanyon offers proof of a Paskas Lanyon (his daughter) in the Parish adjacent to St Just where the marriage took place in 1625 a year after the Will was written. The Will also provides reasonable evidence to suggest that Paskas would have been of an age to marry but it also tells us that she was unmarried at the time the Will was made. With bequests to the poor of the Parishes of Sancreed, St Just, Gulval, Maddern and Buryan there is a suggestion of long-term links with the area. The bequest to the poor of Antony gives some sort of link to that Parish also but the question is - are we talking about the Parish of Antony up on the Tamar or are we talking about St Anthony in Meneage which I think was also known as Anthony/Antony? The 'Trees' on Ancestry show links to Richard Lanyon who you tell us was linked to the rich Lanyons of Devon yet there is no proof offered to suggest any links at all for this family with the Lands End area. In my opinion these 'Trees' are based on the will/wish to be linked with 'the rich and famous' rather than anything such as actual evidence/proof such as the Will of William Lanyon. I stress that this is my opinion but I am basing that opinion on what I would consider 'reasonable evidence'. And (again my opinion) I reckon you could almost bet that the link to Richard Lanyon in these Trees was submitted by one person and that just about everyone else has copied it! (And that is something that I have found many times before with these Ancestry trees and it is also something that has been admitted to me in writing by at least one person with a Family Tree on Ancestry!) CT
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Post by trencrom on Feb 1, 2014 0:19:49 GMT -5
A couple of thoughts... 1. Is there contemporary evidence showing that Richard has a daughter named Paskes? 2. If we do not have a christening for Paskes daughter of William at Sancreed (and I agree that she was therefore in all likelihood christened elsewhere, and given the early date the apparent lack of a surviving record does not surprise) then how is it known that she was "born at the latest [in] 1606"?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 1, 2014 4:10:54 GMT -5
Hi Trencrom - your question has an easy answer.
In his Will of 1624 William Lanyon names daughter Paskes and then names 'youngest daughter' Elizabeth. The Sancreed Parish Register (and the OPC) show the following baptism in 1607:-
Elyzabethe ye daughter of William Lanine was baptised on ye 17th of July
Paskes must therefore have been born no later than 1606.
CT
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Post by lipkatatar on Feb 1, 2014 22:45:38 GMT -5
Hi Trencom!
The evidence that Richard Lanyon of Lanyon had a daughter named Paskis comes from Richard himself. Richard (who was born in Sancreed) submitted the return for the 1620 Heralds Visitation of Cornwall on behalf of the Lanyons. He identified Paskis as his eldest daughter. She would probably have been between 9 - 19 years of age in 1625. Richard's uncle William married in 1592. Elizabeth his eldest daughter was born in 1593 and his youngest daughter, also Elizabeth, was born in 1607. William's daughter Paskis would have been between 19 - 31 years of age in 1625.
On the basis of currently available evidence, I can think of no good reason to consider either Paskis as more likely to have been the wife of Thomas Shetford.
I am awaiting transcripts of a dispute between the Lanyons and Shetfords a few years after the death of Thomas Shetford. These may (or may not) provide some indication as which Paskis was married to Thomas. Research is always better than speculation.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 3, 2014 2:52:11 GMT -5
Lipkatatar and Trencrom - You guys are much more familiar than I with this particular period and I certainly respect your opinions, advice and help. And certainly you are now providing some valid information that links Richard Lanyon with Sancreed and St Just .............. most unlike those Trees on Ancestry! However, the fact that Richard Lanyon was born at Sancreed does not help much at the moment if, as implied, he settled in Devon so I have a couple of questions. 1. Where was Richard and his family in 1620 when he provided the information for the Visitations? 2. Where was Richard and his family in 1625 when the marriage to Thomas Shetford took place at St Just? By the Will of William Lanyon we have his daughter Paskes alive and well and apparently living at Sancreed with her family in 1624, the year before the marriage. At the moment I have seen no evidence that Richard Lanyon or any member of his direct family were even in Cornwall! I realise that this 'may have been' a marriage based on family standings and prior arrangements but then in that case I might have expected something of note to be recorded in the Parish Register. The marriage is recorded just like every other common or garden variety marriage in St Just at the time with both parties apparently local residents. Unless something extraordinary is found to dictate otherwise then I am of the opinion that the wife of Thomas Shetford was most probably the daughter of William Lanyon as named in his Will of the previous year. CT
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Post by lipkatatar on Feb 3, 2014 21:27:42 GMT -5
Hi CT!
Richard Lanyon, father of Paskis, was the first son of Francis Lanyon, the first son of Richard Lanyon, the first son of John Lanyon, the first son of Richard Lanyon, etc.. In other words, he was the nominal head of the Lanyon family in Cornwall.
For centuries the ancestral home of the Lanyons had been in Gwinear, but by the mid 16th century the Lanyons had a major presence in the Madron-Sancreed area. For example, in 1529, John Lanyon of Bobreach in the Parish of St. Crett leased to a James Cara, yeoman the lands known as Tredinan in the parish of St Levan.
At the time of Richard's birth, his great-great-grandfather Richard held Lanyon in Gwinear while his great-grandfather John and his family resided in Madron. John inherited Lanyon in Gwinear in 1592 but it appears that many of his descendents remained in the Madron-Sancreed area. Richard's father had married into the Trewren family of Sancreed and his children were all born there. We do not know when Richard's grandfather died, but by 1606 Richard (father of Paskis) had inherited his grandfather's land (his father Francis having pre-deceased his grandfather). It appears that Richard remained in the Madron area as at least 3 of his children were recorded as having been born there between 1610-1612 (son John and two children who did not survive).
Although Richard's wife came from Little Torrington in Devon, I have no knowledge of Richard or any other Lanyons living in Devon. Perhaps I may have confused you with my previous posts.
If there was only one Paskis Lanyon I would fully support your belief that William's daughter married Thomas Shetford, but until new evidence comes to light I don't see any point in claiming either Paskis as the wife of Thomas Shetford.
The Shetfords were an old Somerset family (with rich and famous connections) who had been cheated out of a half share of 6 manors in Cornwall by the notorious Sir Thomas Bodulgate during the Wars of the Roses. They fought through the courts for many generations to seek recompense but the issue does not seem to have been resolved.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 3, 2014 22:46:03 GMT -5
Lipkatatar - I see your point. At least we have given PollyQ a bit to think about!
Do we know any details of the Shetford children? The baptism of the last known child 'might' help give a clue that could identify which Paskes was involved based on the likely age of the mother.
The other avenue to investigate might be to see if any Wills for the sons of William Lanyon might survive. I see he named sons William and John in his 1624 Will so if either left a Will it might hopefully offer some information about siblings.
CT
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Post by lipkatatar on Feb 4, 2014 23:12:42 GMT -5
The two children of Thomas and Paskis that are known about are eldest daughter Elizabeth and her sister Margaret. Their descendants are well documented but don't give any clue to the identity of Paskis. I am following up a possibility that they also had a son that no-one has yet attributed to them. I have applied to the National Archives for the documents relating to a legal dispute between a John Lanyon and a William Shutford in 1659. As yet I have absolutely no idea what the dispute was about, but it interests me as 1659 was the year that Thomas Shetford died. I have also discovered that a William Shutford was married in St Just in 1653. Paskis and Thomas' daughters were married in 1647 and 1652. The baptism records of St Just are missing for several years after the marriage of Thomas and Paskis so there is a possibility that they had a son William during this period. There appears to be only one other Shetford having children in the Penwith area in the early 17th century and this Richard Shutford's will shows that William was not his son. It will probably be another 2-3 weeks before a get a response from the National Archives. I have a link below that will give pollyq an account of how the Shetfords lost a half share in 8 manors in Cornwall in the late 15th Century. There will also be some mention of the Shetfords in the History of Parliament volumes, but not yet on the online version. books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZzFDAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA70&dq=shetford&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DXjxUtKVD6Xn7Ab-uIHYBQ&ved=0CC4Q6AEwADhG#v=onepage&q=shetford&f=true
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 5, 2014 8:05:32 GMT -5
Yes, there does seem to be a bit of a gap in the baptism register of St Just. I found one image of the original Parish Register that begins with baptisms from 1630 and I do have records earlier than that but unfortunately an afternoon of firefighting and subsequent follow-up duties render the mind less capable of the concentrational abilities required for the task of eliciting the data required to provide further informational value to the conversation at hand to wit the possibility or otherwise of determining the availability or otherwise in any form whatsoever of obtaining any data relating to any records existing or otherwise for the Parish of St Just covering the years following the marriage of Thomas Shetford and Paskes Lanyon until at least the year 1630. In other words - 'me minds buggered at the moment but I will try and find some more info tomorrow'! CT (PS - that is so long as we don't get called to any more fires tomorrow!)
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Post by lipkatatar on Feb 14, 2014 12:09:22 GMT -5
I have just received an estimate from the National Archives for a digital copy of the documents in the Lanyon / Shetford dispute of 1649. They are asking for £48 !!! It will have to wait till I am next in London to see the documents for free. If anyone else interested in the identity of Paskis and has access to the National Archives the record number is C 10/48/84.
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Post by pollyq on Aug 10, 2014 20:55:12 GMT -5
Sorry to have missed this interesting discussion. Shortly after posting, real life intervened and I had to drop the genealogy research for a while. Also I apologise to you Lipkatatar for raising your hackles, but I stand by assertion that what I came across on the internet was badly researched and presented. There were, and still are, lots of statements of 'fact' on the internet that say Richard was the father of the Paskis Lanion that married Thomas Shetford in 1625. No-one had bothered to append a 'maybe' to these facts, or suggest there was another Paskis Lanyon in the offing. The will of William Lanyon of Sancreed might not have been news to you, but it was for me. I thank you Lipkatatar for pointing me in the direction of the Lanyon entry in the 1620 Heralds Visitation of Cornwall, and of the Lanyon/Shetford dispute. You've been really helpful with sharing what you know. I really hope you don't take offence, but you stated in an earlier posting that William Lanyon of Sancreed, married to Jane, was Richard's uncle. Yet the same Lanyon visitation entry footnotes has Richard's uncle as William Lanian of St Breake (Breage?) married Susan dau. of Robert Burdon. The footnote cites page 39 of the 1620 Visitations of Devon, and on having looked can confirm this. I don't know if this marriage is indeed correct, but the Lanyon visitation pedigree does suggest some standing for William and none of the transcripts of birth, marriage, death entries for William Lanyon of Sancreed have Mr or Gent associated with them. Which returns me to Paskis Lanyon. If she was Richard's daughter, why did she marry into a family on their way down the social scale? Surely Richard would have made a better match for his eldest daughter? The William Lanyan of Wynyard that married Elizabeth (1620 visitations), left a will that can be viewed on the Ancestry website here (if you have a sub) search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=canturburyprerogativecourt&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsln=lanyon&cpxt=1&uidh=2a6&cp=11&pcat=CLP_WILLS&fh=0&h=601390&recoff=6&ml_rpos=1He's named as William Lanyon, Gent of Gwinnear He names his children son; Tobias Lanyon daughter; Constance Veale daughter; Margaret Gluvias? daughter; Jone Trenwith (written as Trenwoth) daughter; Elizabeth Lanyon Will proved 17 Feb 1654. Executrix was wife Elizabeth. A corresponding burial on 11 Mar 1652 for William Lanyon, Gent in Gwinear can be found the Cornwall OPC. I also found an interesting will of a Joane/Jone Lanyon, widow of St Buryan, in which she names her sister as Elizabeth Shutford and her kinswoman Alice Shutford. Will was proved 2 July 1656 and is also on the Ancestry website. search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=canturburyprerogativecourt&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsln=lanyon&cpxt=1&uidh=2a6&cp=11&pcat=CLP_WILLS&fh=1&h=172819&recoff=8&ml_rpos=2I did find a while ago, in the Canon Taylor transcripts of the St Just registers, a baptism on 20 Dec 1633 "Alse, d. Thomas Shutford" so we can add another daughter to the mix, but whether this is the kinswoman mentioned by Joane/Jone Lanyon nee Shutford is anyone's guess. A Jone Lanion was buried in St Buryan 18 Jan 1655 (Cornwall OPC) which I presume is the one that wrote the will. An Alse Shutford was buried in St Buryan 18 Aug 1674 (Cornwall OPC) so no illumination of who she is from that record. She could be a sister in law to Jone. There are a fair few Shutford of St Buryan wills in the "Calendars of wills and administrations relating to the counties of Devon and Cornwall, proved in the court of the principal registry of the bishop of Exeter, 1559-1799" Most of which went up in flames in the 2nd WW so I don't know if any abstracts exist. William Shutford, St Buryan, 1634. Richard Shutford, St Buryan, 1662. John Shutford, St Buryan, 1663. Philip Shutford, St Buryan, 1665. What I wasn't able to find was any Shetford/Shutford's (or any name remotely similar) in the Muster rolls in any of the parishes. St Buryan's are dated 1569. I'm not sure if this means there were no Shutford's in the area or just too poor to contribute to arms. Anyhow I shall stop at this point! I'm rambling I hope this is of interest to anyone reading this thread. Edited; Constance Neale should read Constance Veale.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 11, 2014 2:04:12 GMT -5
Thanks Polly - very informative and adds just that little bit more to the mix. CT
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