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Post by cornishmaid on Jun 25, 2007 16:35:18 GMT -5
My Berriman connection (tho not getting very far with it ): Catherine Berriman married Samuel Uren (a widower) on 21 October 1838. They had 5 children (as far as I can ascertain) : Martha N; Joseph John (whom I believe is a direct ancestor of Jim Thompson); Mary (my grt grt granny); Catherine R; and William. William died in the house my parents live in now. The transcription of Catherine Berriman and Samuel Uren's wedding states that Catherine's father was John Berriman a miner. The census says that Catherine was born in Towednack. I can't pinpoint with any certainty, however, when her exact birth/baptism was, and which John Berriman was her father. Anything you could come up with would be great ;D
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Post by trencrom on Jun 25, 2007 23:04:03 GMT -5
cornishmaid, refer to my comment on the movah parish page for a source suggestion on this
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 26, 2007 12:45:45 GMT -5
I do not have this marriage in my database so will need some more information, please.
Could you tell me where the marriage took place and also give me some details on the baptisms and birthplaces for the children
The requested information should hopefully be enough to help me 'pick up the trail' and I should then be able to determine which John Berriman you are looking for.
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Post by cornishmaid on Jun 27, 2007 6:30:06 GMT -5
Okily dokily, here we goes. This is the marriage, which took place in St Ives: 21 Oct 1838 by Banns Samuel Uren of full age widower Shoemaker of St. Ives (Father: John Uren, Laborer) Catherine Berriman of full age spinster of St. Ives (Father: John Berriman, Miner) Witnesses: William Bryant, Thomas Williams This is the 1841 Census: Street An Garrow Samuel Uren 30 Shoe Maker,In county, Kitty Uren 20 In county, Martha Uren 2 In county, Ann Uren 80 In county 1851 Census: Address: Flamanks Court Samuel UREN Head M M 42 Shoe Maker Cwall - Ludgvan Catherine UREN Wife M F 32 Cornwall - St Ives Martha M Uren Dau - F 12 Scholar Cwll - St Ives Joseph J Uren Son - M 7 Scholar Cwll - St Ives Mary Uren Dau - F 4m Cwll - St Ives 1861 Census: Samuel Head 1810 b. Ludgvan Catherine Wife 1817 b. St Ives Martha M Uren Dau 1839 b. Towednack Mary Uren Dau 1849 b. St Ives Catherine R Uren Dau 1857 b. St Ives 1871 Census: The Digey Samuel Roberts Head 1850 b. Goldsithney Mary Roberts Wife 1850 Mary Uren Roberts Dau 1870 Catherine Uren Mother-in-Law b. 1813 Towednack William Uren Brother-in-Law b. 1862 Towednack In 1881 Catherine Uren (nee Berriman) is at Ayr with her daughter Mary, known as Kitty B Uren, birth year as 1811. In 1891 she is still with her daughter Mary, and her new husband Peter Husband Toman. She is listed as age 77, a Widow and a Domestic Servant. So, having looked at this again, the only reference to Catherine Berriman being born in Towednack is in the 1871 census . However, no sign of any Catherine/Catherine Berriman/Berryman, dau of John Berriman being baptised in St Ives. Just to clarify, Samuel Uren & Catherine Berriman's children were: Martha Uren, b. 1839 c. Joseph John Uren, b. 18 August 1843 Mary Uren, b. 1850 c. Catherine R Uren b. 1857 c. William Uren b. 1863 c. Any thoughts gratefully received.
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Post by cornishmaid on Jun 27, 2007 12:01:13 GMT -5
Me again Have just been having a look through my Berriman/Uren file and found the following note I made a while ago.. it didn't come to anything at the time, but it may be of consquence? Andrew Berriman married Mary Curnow on 7 February 1792 in Towednack. They had a son, John Berriman, baptised on 8 January 1797. The dates would seem to fit, and Mary Uren (grand-daughter of John Berriman) called one of her children "Martha CURNOW Toman". As I say, I don't know if this is of any importance, as apart from the coincidences I couldn't find a more certain/positive link.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 27, 2007 12:56:11 GMT -5
Yes, your note 'may be' of 'Quincequonce' - (do believe you meant consequence but I could not resist the urge to embelish it(. ;D One thing I have noticed is the 'name' of HUSBAND turning up here and that 'may' be interesting in the long run. HUSBAND is a name that has cropped up in the Berr()man family since, I think, at least the early part of the 1800's. SORRY - Peter HUSBAND m. Margaret BERRIMAN at St Ives on October 31st, 1804 I am not yet sure where this Margaret belongs but it is very possible there could be some links. If you can send me all you can on the Husband side of things (I am talking this particular surname, of course : and also any information you may have on the TOMAN connections it might help me fit things together. The other information that could also help is that regarding the widowed Samuel UREN. If you can tell me something more about him it might be useful also in sorting out some other connectioins. I think that is about the best I can do for tonight, unfortunately. But I will check the other postings and then organise 'me tucker' and probably watch the latest 'Poirot' DVD I just picked up today. Apart from venturing out to pay a Bill or two I only have to walk about 50 yards to get some (food) stock for my fridge and I can do what I want until Saturday when I head back to work at the Pub.
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Post by cornishmaid on Jun 27, 2007 16:00:14 GMT -5
O deery me me spelin is uzuarly arite The Husband in Peter Husband Toman comes from Thomas Toman marrying Prudence Husband. The "Peter" part would suggest a link there somewhere. Will dig out the Toman file when I have a moment. As for the widowed Samuel Uren, I haven't had time to follow that up but had some info that his first wife was Elizabeth Chapel. I have Samuel's parents as John Uren who married Elizabeth May on 21 July 1804 in Ludgvan. Samuel's siblings being William Hosking Uren, Joseph Uren, John Uren, Thomas Rapson Uren and Mary Jane Uren. But as I say, I haven't had time to check all this out as yet. Oo, I love Poirot! (from afar of course ).
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 28, 2007 14:33:57 GMT -5
More on that Thomas TOMAN/Prudence HUSBAND stuff, please? At the moment I show a marriage at St Ives 24th May 1778 betwee John HUSBAND and Prudence SINCOCK which 'may' lead to something. I currently show no children for them but then I have not done anything on this one since 1999. But if this proves to be a link then we have something more interesting to consider. By my reckoning PRUDENCE was the daughter of John SINCOCK who married Emblen NOALL at Stives 24th January 1739. Will await further before I do much more on this so as to try and save some confusion (if possible :
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Post by cornishmaid on Jun 28, 2007 16:59:38 GMT -5
Yes indeedy, John Husband married Prudence Sincock on 24 May 1778, and they had 7 children that I've found: Prudence, John, Peter, Matthew, 2 x Elisabeth, and Maria. Prudence Sincock was the daughter of John Sincock and Emblem Noall who married 24 January 1739, and she had 7 other siblings to my knowledge. Just let me know if you want the baptisms for these children. I haven't connected that Noall side to the rest of my Noall side yet, but am sure she will be somewhere along the line. Now, what about my Berrimans? ;D Sorry if this is all mixed up, tiredness overtaking me
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 28, 2007 17:15:16 GMT -5
You talk about 'tiredness' at your peril. I have been working on things now for about 10 hours and I feel as 'fresh as a daisy'. (but I think that daisy wilted a few days ago ) Never mind - it is all fun and I would not do it if I did not enjoy it. Now - for your BERRIMAN information - there has been a reason for all the other queries and I am really hoping that some of your answers will point me in the direction I require to determine the origins of your BERRIMAN connections. Please bear with me and I will sort it out but I still think there is something missing that will help me. Will get back on this one, hopefully, in the next day or so. Do have a big weekend coming up at work so that might hinder things but ....
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Post by cornishmaid on Jul 1, 2007 14:17:25 GMT -5
Going to start again with the Toman and Husband connection, to see if I can explain myself any better . The following is my take on the situation; any corrections welcome John Sincock married Emblem Noall on 24 January 1739 at St Ives. They had 8 children: Ann, Emblim, Mary, John, Joanna, Jane, Prudence, Josias. (I have baptism dates if needed.) Their daughter Prudence Sincock married John Husband on 24 May 1778 at St Ives. Prudence and John had 7 children: Prudence, John, Peter, Matthew, Elisabeth x 2 and Maria. Prudence Husband, their daughter, married Andrew Thomas on 17 May 1801. Prudence and Andrew Thomas had 2 children: Elisabeth and Prudence. Andrew then died and Prudence remarried Thomas Toman on 20 February 1807. Prudence and Thomas Toman had 3 children: Thomas, Eliza and Peter Husband. Peter Husband Toman married Elizabeth Thomas Hart on 10 November 1850. They had one son, Peter Husband Toman, on 20 May 1852. Peter Husband Toman Snr died and Elizabeth remarried Charles Cotton in 1862. Peter Husband Toman Jnr married Mary Uren on 15 June 1884. Mary was the daughter of Samuel Uren and Catherine Berriman. Got to go do a few things a minute. Hope that's a bit clearer. If there is any more info you think might help, give me a shout ;D
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 1, 2007 18:01:17 GMT -5
To quote a song from Ernie Maresca in the late 50's/early 60's - "SHOUT, SHOUT (Knock Yourself Out!) ;D (I do have a copy of the record ) I believe John Sincock to be have been bp. St Ives 9th November1718 (IGI) as s/o Josias Syncock and Joan (nee Jane). He married Emblen NOALL in 1739 but I had only managed to 'surmise' 5 children for them (with no baptism dates). Emblem m. Richard POLGLASE at St Ives 12th December 1765 John m. Frances RICHARDS at St Ives 22nd October 1769 Mary m. George BENNATTS ata St Ives 29th June 1777 Prudence m. John HUSBAND at St Ives 24th May 1778 Josias m. Phillis TREGERTHEN at St Ives 18th July 1780 And that seems to have been as far as I got! I think the only other possible information I might add (with none of this guaranteed) would be about Josias SYNCOCK. It appears he was probably the lad baptised at St Ives 10th September 1689 s/o John SYNCOCK and Mary BOSITHIOE. John, in turn, is possibly p. 13th August 1665 at St Ives as son of James SYNCOCK and Ann. I have found (mostly IGI) 5 children to James and Ann SYNCOCK. The probable eldest of these five was JOSIAS. Josias married Earth COCK at Penzance (recorded in Phillimore at St Ives) 25th March 1690. Josias appears to be same man buried at St Ives in 1691. Before (or soon after) he died he had a son named JAMES bp. at St Ives 6th January 1690. James married ( ?) and had a daughter named EARTHY who married a Thomas ROSEWALL, of St Ives 24th January 1740 at Lelant. I have seven children to this family before Thomas died (1751). Earthy appears to have then married William KITTO at St Ives 8th August 1753 and had a daughter named Jane in 1756. I am not sure if it was the ROSEWALL part that got me into this family or if it was purely a 'let's try to put St Ives together' thing that did it. But I do know that the name 'Earth' or 'Earthy' certainly sparked some interest. Would love to have the baptismal dates for our more current problem when you get the chance. Now, I have just had another read of your latest and, apart from a couple of missing children and the baptism dates, I think I can follow everything (with help from Phillimore and the later St Ives marriages online) up until ....... I have not found the 1884 marriage of Peter Husband Toman to Mary Uren. Been just now trying to do some tracking through the UK Census records to see what I could find. (Just realised it is a follow-up to what you already sent. ) But I did find something most interesting in the 1861 entry for Samuel and Catherine Uren at St Ives:- Apart from the names you have already mentioned are also the following:- Hugh SISELY, grandson, age 1, bn. St Ives Emily BERRIMAN, cousin, age 29, bn. St Ives They may be two handy clues - especially Emily BERRIMAN. The fact she is mentioned as 'cousin' may be treated with a little suspicion. It is quite possible she is actually a 'sister-in-law' or she could be a niece. More food for thought and I am going to bed.
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Post by cornishmaid on Jul 2, 2007 5:42:50 GMT -5
Mm.. very Earthy! A very unusual name, makes a change from the many Williams, Richards and Elizabeths I seem to accumulate. ;D. Thank you for all that information Here are the baptisms. Firstly for children of John Sincock and Emblem Noall: Ann 1 February 1740 Emblin 24 April 1743 Mary 2 June 1745 John 23 August 1747 Joanna 21 April 1750 Jane 5 November 1752 Prudence 18 January 1755 Josias 12 December 1756 The baptism dates of children of John Husband and Prudence Sincock are: Prudence 14 March 1779 John 25 July 1781 Peter 18 June 1783 Matthew 26 March 1786 Elisabeth 17 February 1788 Elisabeth 9 June 1793 Maria 21 November 1798 Prudence Husband (above) married twice, firstly to Andrew Thomas, and had 2 children (baptism dates): Elisabeth 19 March 1802 Prudence 21 August 1803 She then married thomas Toman on 20 Feb 1807 and they had the following children (baptism dates): Thomas 4 August 1815 Eliza 1822 c. Peter Husband 4 March 1825 Peter Husband Toman married Elizabeth Thomas Hart in 1850 and had one child: Peter Husband Toman, born 20 May 1852. Peter Husband Toman (Jnr) married Mary Uren (the marriage you couldn't find). I have the Marriage Certificate, details as follows: 15 June 1884, marriage solemnized at The Register Office, Penzance district. Peter Husband Toman, age 32 years, Bachelor, Fisherman, Ayr, Saint Ives; Father - Peter Husband Toman (deceased), Mariner. Mary Uren, 32 years, Spinster, Ayr Saint Ives; Father: Samuel Uren (deceased), Shoemaker. Married in the Register Office by Licence. Signature of Peter Husband Toman; The X Mark of Mary Uren. Witnesses: The X Mark of Catherine Beckerleg; signature of Samuel James Beckerleg. This was actually Mary's second marriage, but no mention is made of this on the Certificate The Emily Berriman and Hugh Sisley part is very interesting. I can't find a baptism for Emily in St Ives up until 1840 but that doesn't mean anything. The other interesting thing is that someone else here has Berriman and Sisley connections, but through Alice Polmear and John Berriman (also related to me on my mother's side). The only Emily Berriman I could find of the right age in 1851 was actually a prisoner in Bodmin County Gaol . Cannot find much else on Emily at the moment, but that's going to be my next line of investigation. Coffee time! Need to ponder on this
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Post by cornishmaid on Jul 2, 2007 14:33:51 GMT -5
Well still no further forward/backward Although it appears that Martha Uren (daughter of Samuel Uren and Catherine Berriman) married Hugh Sisley Phillips, and had a few children, one of whom was Hugh Sisley Phillips born 1861c. Would this be the Hugh Sisley you found on the 1861 census age 1 do you think? Martha is still listed as Martha Uren at this stage. Still cannot find Emily Berriman anywhere else, and Catherine still remains a mystery
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 2, 2007 14:52:23 GMT -5
Hope you enjoy your coffee and ponderings and will be back soon as I too have some ponderings. I just found some Berriman information I had forgotten about to do with St Ives and it is proving most interesting. The information I am now looking it deals with extracts of all Berriman (sic.) Baptisms for St Ives from 1652-1900. I cannot find Catherine (sic.) Berriman and nor can I find Emily Berriman (sic.) so I am about to try a couple of other avenues to deal with this one. (Don't have to worry about 'tucker' as I have it all right beside me this time. ;D) (I do have to worry about getting to bed so it is possible this posting might not be completed tonight. ) After quite a lengthy, but not yet finished, look at the information I have to say there is a very strong possibility that we may be looking at two different Catherine Urens at this stage. (One obviously bp. Berriman). The 1838 Marriage record shows Catherine Berriman as 'of full age' when she married Samuel Uren. That works fine with a possible birth about 1817 or even possibly up until 1820 (I cannot recall off the top of my head what the legal age for girls to marry was at that stage but I think it was as low as 14 at one time.) In every Census we have been looking at up through 1861 Catherine's age is consistent with a birth of about 1817. YET - in the 1871 and 1881 Census we suddenly find that her birth is around 1811 or 1813. Even the 1841 Census suggests Catherine was born closer to 1820 than 1810! She was aged 20 in that Census which suggests to me that she was born after 1815 and closer to 1820. What we need to do is see if we can find that 'Hugh Sisley, grandson' connection and also the 'Emily Berriman, cousin' connection to see what help we can obtain. I have checked some other information I found here and cannot find Catherine baptised at St Ives either. In fact, I found similar information for Towednack which ends at 1812 and has at least one later entry towards the end of the 1800's so it has been of no use in this. Lelant has also shown nothing whilst Zennor yeilded only a Catherine baptised to David Berryman in 1824. BTW - did you notice in the 1841 Census for this family that there was an ANN UREN, age 80 with them? - suggest this is very likely to be Samuel Uren's mother. Just more food for thought I am afraid.
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