|
Post by cornishmaid on Jul 2, 2007 16:16:10 GMT -5
I totally agree, if this is the same Catherine then her age is all over the shop. Could be just a woman thing though, not wanting to admit her age After watching my taped episode of Holby ;D, I've just had a look at the Uren side of things to see if that was of any help. Samuel Uren was apparently the son of John Uren and Elizabeth May. The Ann Uren with Samuel in the 1841 Census is supposedly Samuel's grandmother. Samuel Uren was born in Ludgvan and as there are not a lot of online records for this area at the moment I will have to go take that long overdue trip to Truro to confirm this. I still cannot find any trace of Emily Berriman. As for the Hugh Sisley, I am thinking that he was Martha Uren's child and that she married Hugh Sisley Phillips after their son was born. I haven't found a marriage yet, and am just surmising that Hugh Sisley should have been transcribed as Hugh Sisley Phillips, so this is all just supposition at the moment. The only evidence I have at the moment is the marriage certificate of Mary Uren and Peter Toman which states that Mary's father was Samuel Uren, Shoemaker (deceased), and of course the census returns.
|
|
|
Post by cornishmaid on Jul 3, 2007 4:28:06 GMT -5
Emily Berriman.... 1881 Census - The Stennack, St Ives William Wills, Head, Unm, Male, 53, b. St Hilary, Cornwall. Occ: Sawyer Emily Berriman, Servant, Female, 50, b. Breage, Cornwall. Occ: Housekeeper Marriage - 7 April 1884, by Banns William Wills, 57, Bachelor, Sawyer of St Ives (Father: Illegitimate) Emily Berryman, 55, Spinster of St Ives (Father: James Berryman, Miner) Witnesses: Thomasine PHILLIPS, Walter Seaman. 1891 Census - St Andrews Street Emily Wills,Head,Wid,,58,Charwoman,,Cornwall Breage, Elizabeth Stevens,Lodger,Wid,,72,Pauper,,Cornwall Breage What do you think
|
|
|
Post by cornishmaid on Jul 3, 2007 5:55:28 GMT -5
And more food for thought.. Emily Berryman, baptised 31 May 1829 in Germoe, to parents James Berryman and Clarinda. (Yep, another Clarinda : Other baptisms to James and Clarinda are: Elizabeth 9 September 1821 Germoe Margaret Jane 27 March 1825 Germoe Ann 26 December 1831 Nanjekin, Breage James 26 December 1831 Nanjekin, Breage Martha 26 December 1831 Nanjekin, Breage Rosanna 14 August 1833 Trescowe, Breage James' occupation is: Miner. I then found a marriage for James Berryman/Berriman to Clarinda Nicholas on 6 March 1813 in LUDGVAN. There may well be other baptisms in Ludgvan that belong to James and Clarinda. Still no luck at finding Catherine Berriman's baptism... but am swaying towards Ludgvan for some reason
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 3, 2007 10:21:53 GMT -5
BINGO! ;D - I Think Been doing a bit of work on this since I got home from work and I do believe I 'may' have the solution. I did have some details regarding James and Clarinda Berryman and also of their daughter EMILY and her marriage to William Wills. I can also confirm that their first four children were baptised at Ludgvan. (IGI) After this followed events at Germoe and Breage which is again mostly IGI at this stage. I did find one baptism at Germoe from the Online Parish Register but there are currently gaps that precluded me from finding the others supposedly born/baptised there. The OPR for Breage does not yet include the stuff found in IGI. The first child I know of for James and Clarinda was CORDELIA who was (IGI) baptised at Ludgvan 1st August 1813. Then followed Mary bp. 24th September 1815 at Ludgvan. The fourth child was CLARINDA also bp. at Ludgvan in 1819 whereafter the children were apparently born at Germoe and then Breage. It also appears that some of the children were baptised together which has also confused things just a little. BUT YOU WILL BE WONDERING - - WHAT ABOUT THE THIRD CHILD ;D This is where I think I just 'may' have solved the problem. CHRISTIAN was baptised at Ludgvan 27th January 1817 CHRISTIAN and CATHERINE = same in numerous records I have seen. The age is correct, the location (not St Ives or Towednack) is basically correct - but that is not all. In the 1851 Census James and Clarinda Berriman are back at St Ives with children James, Jane, Nancy and Martha who are all shown as being born at Breage. James is recorded as having been born at Towednack about 1790 and Clarinda at St Ives about 1794. Next part of the puzzle 'sort of' comes into place with 'COUSIN EMILY BERRIMAN' who was shown as age 29 in the 1861 Census. Now this puts her birth at about 1831/2 but, as you have mentioned, 'female vanity' may have played a part here. (More on that with Catherine to come). The point here is that, if I am correct, then Emily ('cousin' of Samuel Uren in 1861) was the younger sister of 'Catherine' and was actually born about 1829. This fits exactly with your other recent note and shows the family had been at Breage but had moved back to St Ives. NOW - your point about Catherine and her age being 'all over the shop' is quite valid but I wonder if a female is going to say she is a certain age in one Census and then say she is actually 6 years older in the next? I still think we may be dealing with two different Catherine Berrimans in this case. The one other part of this problem is the fact that, at marriage, Catherine's father was named as JOHN. I have not seen the 'original' marriage entry (only transcripts) so have to make a guess here. Depending on how the name was written in the PR could be a problem and we may be looking at transcription errors. e.g. Jn and Js can look very similar. There may be other factors I cannot think of just now but ...... The next task is to find the parents of James Berriman and also of Clarinda Nicholas. Your 'swaying back towards Ludgvan' seems to come into play here I am thinking. I will now pass the ball back in your direction for a while to see what you (and any other person keeping track of this thread) can do with it. Think I might be on the right track though.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 3, 2007 11:16:36 GMT -5
Another ponderable. Just using IGI for now I have found only one James Berr*man who might be a candidate. James Berriman bp. 2nd August 1789 at Towednack s/o James Berriman and CHRISTIAN (nee SAMPSON) I had already assigned this bloke to a marriage in 1815 at Towednack to Charity MARTINS. WHOOPS - I now find that there is a HUGE error involved here. Because of the lack of available information I took, for granted, the work of others on this line. I do not blame these people by any means because they were probably working also on the best information available and names, etc. would have fit with other information. (about 15-20 years ago.) There was a James Berryman bp. Towednack in 1795 and it is he who married Charity Martins. I have now found them in the 1851 Census at Redruth along with their son Andrew who was baptised at Towednack. Because of this discovery I now believe the James Berriman bp. Towednack in 1789 is the man who married Clarinda Nicholas in 1813. This James being the son of James and CHRISTIAN fits more logically with what we have been discussing. It also means I have a lot of work to do to correct my old database so that correct entries are recorded. I will also need to contact some of the people who have previously supplied this information so that I can inform them of the problems.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 3, 2007 11:27:25 GMT -5
Ref - Hugh Sisley Don't think I mentioned this so thought I would separate it from the last note. Have checked some Census stuff and found information that might help. Seems young HUGH SISLEY was recorded in 1861 in a very strange manner. The Census information infers that he was, actually, Sisley which, to me, would have indicated that another daughter of the family had married a 'Sisley' and was elsewhere at the time the Census was taken and had left her son with the grandparents. It now appears that this was definitely not the case. I have found the family in later Census records with Hugh Sisley Phillips, Martha Phillips and family. So it would seem that young 'Hugh Sisley' was an illegitamite child and that his parents were married some time after the taking of the 1861 Census. (Martha was 'Unm.' in 1861) Be nice to find the marriage of Martha - can't find it in stuff I have available. Oh, the joy we have when we get involved in genealogy! ;D
|
|
|
Post by cornishmaid on Jul 3, 2007 12:44:44 GMT -5
Mmm, curiouser and curiouser Am going to get stuck into this tomorrow, but for now another little thing to ponder over. Given your comments about Christian/Catherine being interchangeable, I had another look at the St Ives and Towednack baptisms. I found the following in Towednack: CHRISTIAN Berriman, daughter of JOHN (MINER) and Martha, baptised 15 November 1818. The only other baptism I could find with John and Martha as parents was John Berriman baptised 22 April 1824. Any good?
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 3, 2007 13:46:56 GMT -5
Yep - could be real good! Means I may have to re-think a couple of things in my previous but - that is what this is all about. I don't currently have this Towednack stuff available so I much appreciate the input. One thing all this has done though is to 'blow wide open' some other very early Berriman information I had as is shown in my note of tonight regarding James and Clarinda. (Good thing I have not updated my database as yet - ;D) I reckon you may have identified the correct person now - and I must request that you pass on any further Berr()man details from Towednack pertaining to that family - if you will. (Please ) PM is fine if you wish as other entries might be useful and of help. Your humble and (sometimes) obedient - Cornish Terrier
|
|
|
Post by cornishmaid on Jul 3, 2007 17:12:31 GMT -5
Now we're cooking! Have just come across the marriage of: John Berriman to Martha Curnow on 26 April 1818 in St Ives. ;D There was me thinking that the name of Curnow passed down to children as a middle name was from the Uren side. Only found the 2 baptisms in Towednack for John and Martha Berriman. Will do a bit more investigation. I don't think all our other Berriman work is wasted though. Emily could prove key to fitting them all together. Good job you mentioned the Christian/Catherine angle! Will see what else I can find with regard to John and Martha and keep you posted.
|
|
|
Post by cornishmaid on Jul 4, 2007 7:09:43 GMT -5
Well, have just come across something else. John Berriman, son of John and Martha was baptised 22 April 1824 (as per my earlier post). I have now found a Martha in the burial index as follows: Place: Towednack; Name: Martha Berriman; Aged: 33; Date: 22 April 1824! That's obviously why I couldn't find any more children baptised to John and Martha .
|
|
|
Post by cornishmaid on Jul 4, 2007 8:19:34 GMT -5
Have just found this death: John Berriman, Towednack, aged 10 months, date: 13 February 1825. Could well be John and Martha's son. I am just wondering if John B remarried to a Jane Grenfell after Martha died. They married in Sancreed on 30 January 1825, then lived and had a family in Towednack. They also had a son John Berriman... that's what made me wonder if John and Martha's son had died at a young age. Ah... in 1861, didn't the Uren family have two boarders by the name of Grenfell in the house? Eleanor GRENFELL Boardr M F 64 Sailors Wife (Merchant Service), Cornwall - St Ives; and Eleanor GRENFALL Boardr U F 17 Domestic Servant Cornwall - St Ives Will have to leave it there for the moment, but will be back later ;D.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 4, 2007 11:58:01 GMT -5
You Little Gem You! This stuff is very interesting and is certainly looking like helping fit more of the puzzle together. Am currently trying to work my way through the James Berriman/Berryman problems so that I can get it accurate and will also be looking at the data you have just provided to get that side of things sorted. And I also have a Berryman 'sideline' to look at a little more because of all this. All YOUR Fault 'Sunshine'. ;D This is a perfect example of what this Forum is all about. You asked a simple ( ) question - please tell me who etc...... That got me thinking, looking and working on the problem - ideas and notes changed direction and BINGO - all of a sudden at least three earlier connections are corrected and it looks like you may well have found the person you originally asked about. I'll get back onto things now and see if I can get some more information to you tonight. BTW - you may notice another new member - 'tassiekiwi' ?? This is one of the people I mentioned last night whom I would have to contact regarding changes to the Berryman family files. I sent an email promptly which included details of how to get involved right here and, when I got home from work tonight, I had a reply saying that the 'joining up' process was complete and excursions through the Board were in progress.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 4, 2007 13:56:54 GMT -5
Progress seems to be happening at a fairly rapid pace here but I am trying to keep up with it. I think you may have been correct when you said that the identity of 'Emily Berriman' might help solve the original problem. Well, I believe we have now identified Emily as daughter of James and Clarinda. I have a few more things to work on now to help join up the pieces of the puzzle. The identity of Clarinda Nicholas is, of course, one of them because I need to know why she and James named their first daughter Cordelia. Having identified Emily I now need to work out exactly who she was related to when she is referred to as 'cousin' by Samuel Uren in 1861. There are a couple of other things I am trying to look at also but I guess I should try to simplify things enough, for now, to save confusion. I do have one very likely identification for you, however. You say the second wife of John Berriman was Martha CURNOW who was buried at Towednack in 1824 at the age of 33. I reckon she is probably:- Martha d/o William and Martha (nee Humphries) Curnow bp. 10th March 1791 at Towednack. It now comes down to identifying John which should help sort out the connection to Emily Berriman. (Unless there is another Berriman connection in the Uren family.) Will take a further look into things for a while now and see what else I can come up with.
|
|
|
Post by cornishmaid on Jul 4, 2007 15:19:32 GMT -5
You're the little Gem . If you hadn't mentioned the Christian/Catherine connection I would have STILL been trying to find the birth of Catherine Berriman. Yes, we're of the same opinion about Martha Curnow being the daughter of William Curnow and Martha Humphries. Have made a note of their other children's baptisms if you would like them. Still working on the John Berriman parentage angle, so that's going to be my next breakthrough! (I hope : Nice to see another Berr*man researcher on the site.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 4, 2007 15:35:22 GMT -5
Some more musings from the latest notes before I pursue 'Cordelia' etc. The theory about John Berriman marriyng Jane Grenfell at Sancreed is interesting, and certainly worth some thought. However, the marriage occurred 30th January 1825 which could create some doubt. On the 27th February 1825 there was a baptism for Elizabeth Jane d/o John Berriman (miller) and Jane of Sancreed. Given that Martha was buried in April 1824 I should think we might have to look elsewhere for the second marriage. Since at least the early 1600's there have been Berrimans (sic.) in the St Buryan and Sancreed area and the names John and Jane are prevalent wherever we look. And your point about the 'Grenfell boarders' at the Uren household in 1861 is another to consider because Grenfell is also a name that is most commonly associated with Far West Cornwall yet has a long history in St Ives also. To add more to the confusion. In the 1851 Census at Gulval there is a John Berriman who had been born at Towednack about 1801. He has a wife named Jane who was born at Sacreet (Sancreed) but all their children were born at Gulval. I think that would possibly take care of the Jane Grenfell marriage. But there is another candidate in 1851 at St Erth. Rose-an-grouse, St Erth John Berriman, head, marr., 55, tin & copper miner, bn. Towednack Jane Berriman, wife, marr., 60, bn. Towednack There are no other persons enumerated with them in this Census. Please show me the details of the children baptised at Towednack as children of John and Jane to help clarify this a little further. The fact that John and Martha named their (what appears to be) first daughter CHRISTIAN is certainly suggestive and leads me more to a conclusion that John was the son of James Berriman and Christian (nee SAMPSON) who married at St Ives in 1787. This John was bp. at Towednack 19th March 1799 but may well have been born a couple of years earlier. Some things to consider - IF we (I) have identified the right man and IF we (I) have identifed Martha CURNOW correctly as being his wife and IF we (I) have identified this Martha CURNOW as the one bp. Towednack in 1791 then John was several years Martha's junior. This is not really a problem and was certainly not a rarity but it does make one think. The next item here may help with this and that is my reference to the 1851 Census as mentioned above. At this time John is aged 55, bn. Towednack but his wife, Jane, is 60 and also bn. Towednack. I do not believe we can say who Jane was just yet but I am almost convinced she is not the Jane Grenfell at Sancreed. I am also not yet 'totally' convinced as to John's identity but I am now 'pretty sure' that he must have been the son of James Berriman and Christian (nee Sampson) and was baptised at Towednack 19th March 1799. This being the case would make him the younger brother of James who married Clarinda Nicholas whom we suspect to be the parents of 'EMILY BERRIMAN' from the 1861 Census. It would therefore follow that EMILY was a cousin to CATHERINE who married Samuel Uren. MY HEAD HURTS so am going to have a rest and think about some food etc. before I tackle the next part of this. (The identity of Clarinda Nicholas!)
|
|