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Post by chris on Mar 14, 2014 0:43:14 GMT -5
Hi CT, There is a gap for Henry to be born between between Robert 1681 and James 1683 but its very tight.If they are the same 2 Richard and Elizabeths. They would have been moving between Grade and Ruan Minor when Henry was born 1682 hence no record possibly. Richard and Elizabeth had a Mary 1694 in Sithney.They got about.If he became the clerk in Wendron about 1700 that would explain lots of connections there with Edward and lots of marraiges in Wendron for Ralph's. I have viewed the original Will of Richard of Grade,yeoman of Sithney who died 1705/6. He only talks of his son Richard and brother Abel and Nicholas of Grade. Richard ,d 1706 had a lease off Enys who bought Winnianton manor for 1000 pounds in 1647 Gunwalloe. As stated before they mostly tie back to Winnianton Manor,including John the Vicar of St Erth through Thomas etc. Thanks Chris.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 14, 2014 0:51:17 GMT -5
Chris - I have not seen that Will but can you tell me if it makes any mention of 'children' who are unnamed but for whom Trustees might be named? I also note that you are trying to fit Henry between children baptised in 1691 and 1693 which indicates you have it fixed in your mind that Henry was a certain age when he married or died. Unless you have recorded evidence of his age then I suggest you remove that thought totally from your mind. I see a Nicholas Ralph also left a Will at Ruan Minor in 1700 - perhaps that one might be worth a look if you can find a copy. CT
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Post by chris on Mar 14, 2014 1:10:51 GMT -5
Hi CT, Seems odd that Richard and Elizabeth didn't have a son Richard or maybe he did and Richard's child died at birth. Even Henry fathered Faith and a twin Henry that died at birth. Think we might be getting somewhere possibly with old Henry.He may have scarpered to Marazion fishing,mining or whatever to get away from his religious family in Wendron and married Margaret. Chris.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 14, 2014 3:50:40 GMT -5
Don't forget that we don't yet have a marriage for Richard and Elizabeth and nor a baptism for Henry, if he is their son as we are hypothesising. If there is no baptism for Henry (and he does belong) there are probably other children we have not found. And don't forget that the four baptisms we have range from around 1681 to 1694 so plenty of room for other children.
That's it until I get back from the fires.
CT
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Post by chris on Mar 14, 2014 17:55:36 GMT -5
CT, Richard Ralph of Grade ,Sithney that died 1706,had a partner Eleanor Brownfield, widow on the lease of Bawdens tenement, Gunwalloe Winnianton Manor in the period 1663-1685.This covers the time of Henry's birth? The partnership may have been more than a financial arrangement. Richard junior named in Richard ,seniors Will 1706 would have taken over the lease on Richard seniors death. Richard junior and wife Elizabeth's children's births have big gaps between them so there is lots of time for a Henry to be born 1682 approx.But again why no data recorded when the other children are.? Richard would be born about 1656 presumeably in or near Grade and married about 1681,had Robert in Grade 1681,James1683 Ruan Minor,Jane 1685 Grade,Eleanor 1692 Ruan Minor,Mary 1694 Sithney. Henry Arundel and Jane lived in Helston,so they moved over that way as Eleanor did too.So Henry may have moved to be nearer to his daughters? It is as though Henry was a black sheep or something but he may have been caught in the moving and the times.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 19, 2014 1:14:37 GMT -5
Chris - rather than 'partners' it is more likely that Richard Ralph and the widowed Eleanor Brownfield were 'lives' on Bawdens. It is also possible that Eleanor was Richard's sister and that actually makes more sense. Leases, usually of 99 years, were taken out on three 'lives' with the Lessee often being one life along with two offspring or the Lessee with nephews or sometimes the Lessee might nominate cousins or grandchildren among the lives. Although records are scant it might be worth a look to see if there might be a marriage for someone named Brownfield to either Eleanor Ralph OR an Eleanor with perhaps no surname recorded.
As I tried to explain earlier it is possible there are more children for Richard and Elizabeth. Of those five for whom we have baptisms two were found in the Parish Register for Ruan Minor and one at Sithney. You provided dates for two others at Grade but that information must be from Bishops Transcripts which I do not have. The period involved is one for which registers for many Parishes are either lost or have sustained water damage or fragmentation which means that many entries are either lost of simply unreadable. It is possible that Henry and, perhaps, other siblings baptisms might have been recorded on those pages.
CT
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Post by chris on Mar 19, 2014 2:24:54 GMT -5
Hi CT- Thanks, You are probably right about Eleanor Brownfield being Richard Ralph's sister? No joy finding anything on Eleanor Brownfield. Richard and Elizabeths 5 kids were on IGI. Nicholas Ralph born about 1664 dates don't seem to fit either with Henry,or Abel father of Nicholas. Still wondering as Peter that died about 1656 had a daughter Jane so there may still be some link there. Seems the Ralph,Ralfe's mostly radiated out from Gunwalloe,Winnianton Manor. As you say there are too many records missing. Chris
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 19, 2014 3:45:50 GMT -5
Chris - I did have a quick look on the OPC site for a possible Brownfield marriage and came up blank but did not have time to look for any other possible sources. IGI - the records on IGI do not always come from Parish Registers. Unless you know the Batch Numbers or other reference numbers used it can be confusing. IGI entries come from Parish Registers, Bishops Transcripts as well as many being LDS Member Submitted which are definitely not to be relied on. In some cases dates of marriage are actually Banns and many do not actually represent the true date or the actual place of marriage.
All hope is not lost and it is just a matter of chipping away and trying to dig out bits and pieces.
CT
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Post by chris on Mar 19, 2014 4:38:32 GMT -5
Thanks CT,I needed to hear that all hope is not lost, have been chipping for a while now. It seems odd Henry didn't have an Elizabeth child if she was his mother. Couldn't find anything on where Faith ,Henry's daughter's name came from either. Keep chipping,not sure where to from here.Need help? Regards Chris.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 19, 2014 5:12:01 GMT -5
For the moment I would suggest you keep searching through Wills to see if you might find some reference to Henry or his family. There are sites with hundreds of abstracted Wills available and you should be able to access some of them through this site.
Also check the CRO Online Catalogue for Leases or other documents that might be of help.
CT
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Post by chris on Mar 19, 2014 16:03:08 GMT -5
Have been over the CRO Online Catalogue with a fine toothed comb for leases ,documents,many Wills etc.Contacted the local OPC. Henry is like a ghost. Will keep digging?
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Post by chris on Mar 19, 2014 19:21:01 GMT -5
CT, The main clue in CRO Online catalogue is AR/4/1846 Which states on the lease 1716 of Pehale Wollas formerly in the tenure of Francis Ralph deceased and Edward Mitchell deceased and now of Richard Mitchell of Gwynier,son of Edward. Richard I believe was the father of Margaret who married Henry 1707. Ralph Mitchell was the son of Ralph Mitchell cousin of Margaret? This sort of ties it back to the Peter died 1656 line?if Henry and Margaret named their son Richard after Margaret's father Richard Mitchell? Chris
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 20, 2014 0:53:46 GMT -5
Chris - I have checked the AR/4/1846 reference in the CRO Catalogue and I cannot see how you could infer any connection to Henry Ralph or Margaret Mitchell from it. At some point a Francis Ralph was the tenant of Penhale Weeth but it is now in the tenure of a James Cock of Gwinear who, along with a Francis Hockin of Phillack, is being granted the Lease by Sir Richard Bellings and his wife. The lease is being granted on the life of Francis Hockin, presumably the man above, and this term is to commence on the deaths of James Cock (again presumably the man above) and Richard son of Edward Michell, deceased, of Gwinear.
Mitchell/Michell is not an uncommon name in the West of Cornwall and the name can be found in Gwinear and Phillack over a long period so it is difficult indeed to make any link to Henry or his wife. I should also add that a first son is much more likely to have been named for his father or paternal grandfather than for a maternal grandfather unless both grandfathers shared the same name.
What I would suggest is that you perhaps do a little work on the people mentioned in this Lease and see if any clues might be found that could be of use. The document is dated 6th June 1713 and it mentions that Edward Mitchell is deceased and that he had a son named Richard. That would hopefully allow you to track down a baptism for Richard and possibly a marriage (and other children) for Edward - provided the registers are extant and legible. And the inference is that Francis Hockin was a younger man and that there was a Francis Ralph in the area at some time.
I have some other work to do but if I get a chance later I might try and look further into this lease myself.
CT
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Post by chris on Mar 20, 2014 3:00:03 GMT -5
Hi CT- There is a Richard Mitchell on contributed IGI , birth about 1663 of Breage with spouse Margery,children,George,Margaret,Richard ,Edward. There is a Richard died on OPC 3/1/1724 Gwinear. Chris
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Post by chris on Mar 20, 2014 3:25:26 GMT -5
AR/2/1019 Audit of accounts for Arundel.Francis Ralph is reeve at Rossworthy (Roseworthy)Manor 1679. AD408/52 Richard and Nicholas sons of Edward are named on the lease Roseworthy Gwinear. Pure speculation but it does fit that Richard could well be the father of Margaret Mitchell that married Henry 1707. ?? Chris
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