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Post by tenpoundpom on Jan 2, 2013 19:55:21 GMT -5
Hi Simon - there is still a lot of work to do on the Phillips but, as you can see, it is not easy. I need to hear back from Trencrom about the baptism of Francis Phillips in 1725 where he quoted the parents as 'John and Elnor'. A friend looked at the Zennor BTs at the CRO earlier last year and could not find the entry and the Zennor PR that I have is in such bad condition that any pages for thatperiod are all but impossible to read. Bottom line is - if Trencrom was mistaken (or if I noted the details from him incorrectly) then I may have to do some rethinking about the parentage of Francis Phillips. Until I know one way or another about the name of the mother I will have to leave things as they are. CT After reading through all the Zennor posts a few days ago I seem to recall that Trencrom said he found John & Elnor as the parents of Francis Phillips at baptism in the Exeter BT of the Zennor records which is held in the Devonshire Record Office
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 2, 2013 23:41:16 GMT -5
And I have just found it!! - Not the original post but via other information that has come my way! And this information now has some implications involving part of our work on the early Quick family of the same period. The Philips entry is on the same page of BTs as a group of five marriages that the Society of Genealogists have clearly recorded as 1625:- Franncis ye sonne of John Philip & Elner his wife was baptised the 14th of September The mother's name is clearly written as 'Elner'. CT
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Post by tenpoundpom on Feb 1, 2013 10:10:51 GMT -5
Annie Elizabeth Trewhella (1863 - 1937), the daughter of William Trewhella (abt 1811) and Martha Sincock (abt 1829) is not "remembered" as part of the family either by my mother or her cousin. She would have been a great aunt to my mother and cousin but died before they were 10. I've tracked Annie a little way. If CT or anyone else can fill in the gaps I'd be grateful Annie married Francis Crase Dunn in 1886. Francis was born in Cornwall but lived in Yorkshire at the time of marriage. He had a previous marriage to probably a Stephens. Anyway, Annie moved up to Yorkshire with Francis. They had a daughter, Annie Trewhella Dunn, in 1891. This Annie married Lionel Victor Underwood in Sheffield in 1917. From what I can work out Lionel was born in Derbyshire. All of them seem to have moved back to Cornwall sometime. Francis died in 1929 and his widow died in 1937. Lionel died in 1972 and Annie Trewhella Dunn died in 1968. I don't know whether Lionel and Annie had children. If they did, and if there is any knowledge of them, I'd love to know. I could harrass them on my trip to England in July. ;D ;D ;D Simon
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Post by sue on Feb 1, 2013 11:48:49 GMT -5
Margaret S Underwood mother's surname Dunn born Sheffied RD June Q 1921 has promise........
Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 1, 2013 12:14:40 GMT -5
Simon - I don't know a lot about this family and had not reached the point of finding out whether Annie Trewhella Dunn married. However, I do know a couple of things! Francis Craze Dunn was born at St Ives 7th August 1854 and baptised on the St Ives Wesleyan Methodist Circuit 28th August 1854. His parents were William Dunn and Jane Craze who married at St Ives 25th September 1849. Francis was first married to Jane Stevens in 1877. I don't have the actual details but suspect it may have been a Non-conformist marriage. It may have been Registry Office but I think NC is the more likely. All I know of Jane Stevens at the moment is that she was born at St Ives about 1853. There were two children that I know of from the first marriage (as of now you can make that three!) - Jane Stevens Dunn born St Ives 22nd February 1878 and baptised St Ives Wesleyan Methodist Circuit 6th February 1880 - Francis Craze Dunn born St Ives 7th July 1879 and baptised with his sister 6th February 1880 (he died Ecclesall Bierlow R.D. 1880) - Frank born 1883 in Sheffield, Yorkshire. Jane Dunn died in the September Qtr of 1884 Ecclesall Bierlow R.D. at the age of 31. Francis Craze Dunn then married Annie Elizabeth Trewhella at Mawgan in Meneage 18th May 1886 and Annie Trewhella Dunn was born at Richmond, Yks in 1891. Francis Craze Dunn died in the Truro R.D. in 1929 but I am yet to find his burial. Annie Elizabeth Dunn of Chyvelah died at Kenwyn 29th December 1936 (The London Gazette). I also have not found her burial as yet. That is about all I know except for the few additional details you have just added. CT
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Post by white on Feb 2, 2013 6:45:55 GMT -5
Re the Dunn family. They were originally Dun/Donne. I have these back to 1550. If you want the info pleaseletme know. RW
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Post by tenpoundpom on Feb 2, 2013 20:21:10 GMT -5
> sue Seems a very suitable candidate. I had spent so much time looking at 19th Cent records that I'd "forgotten" that the mother's maiden name is in the birth index after 1911. There is a Margaret Sylvia Underwood (born 11 April 1921) whose death is recorded in May 1984 at Falmouth RD...so I guess that is her..and it would seem she did not marry. So no prospect of free board and lodging there! There is another Underwood with a Dunn mother...Estelle J Underwood, born in Doncaster in 1931. Would make Annie 41 at time of birth if she is the mother..so it is possible.. >CT Thanks for the background. It will make it easier for me to chase the sources when I add the individuals to the tree! >white it would be great to have the Dunn/Dun/Donne info. What form is it in? Perhaps a PM may be the best way to sort it all out. Thanks to all Simon
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 2, 2013 22:02:41 GMT -5
Simon - before 'claiming' all Underwoods whose mother's maiden name was Dunn it might be an idea to perform one further check. Have a look at FreeBMD for marriages where the groom is Underwood and the bride Dunn. You may need to try a couple of variations of Dunn but also check within a reasonable time-frame. If there is more than one then you will need to try and sort out which children might logically belong to which family. Unless there are variations of the Dunn surname then the following should be the only ones that might come into play. Obviously none before 1917 would be ours but then Alfred (1909) might have had children beyond 1917. Likewise Lionel might have had children beyond certainly 1930 and, just possibly, 1942. Marriages Jun 1909 (>99%) UNDERWOOD Alfred Northampton 3b 181 Marriages Sep 1917 (>99%) Underwood Lionel V Dunn Sheffield 9c 1120 Marriages Jun 1930 (>99%) Underwood George C Dunn York 9d 65 Marriages Jun 1942 (>99%) Underwood Kenneth T Dunn Bridgwater 5c 1011 CT
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Post by tenpoundpom on Feb 3, 2013 1:59:46 GMT -5
Simon - before 'claiming' all Underwoods whose mother's maiden name was Dunn it might be an idea to perform one further check. Have a look at FreeBMD for marriages where the groom is Underwood and the bride Dunn. You may need to try a couple of variations of Dunn but also check within a reasonable time-frame. If there is more than one then you will need to try and sort out which children might logically belong to which family. Unless there are variations of the Dunn surname then the following should be the only ones that might come into play. Obviously none before 1917 would be ours but then Alfred (1909) might have had children beyond 1917. Likewise Lionel might have had children beyond certainly 1930 and, just possibly, 1942. Marriages Jun 1909 (>99%) UNDERWOOD Alfred Northampton 3b 181 Marriages Sep 1917 (>99%) Underwood Lionel V Dunn Sheffield 9c 1120 Marriages Jun 1930 (>99%) Underwood George C Dunn York 9d 65 Marriages Jun 1942 (>99%) Underwood Kenneth T Dunn Bridgwater 5c 1011 CT Thanks for the tips and the caution. I've dug enough holes for myself already to start digging another one! Wasn't quite at the point of "claiming" all the Underwood/Dunn children as Lionel's and Annie's. Margaret (thanks Sue!) does look a promising candidate though, particularly as she moved from Yorkshire to Cornwall, as did Lionel V and Annie T. Ancestry.com is a bit like the "Wild West" of genealogy, but I sometimes stick a mini tree up there and see whether any chickens come home to roost. None have alighted on Estelle and her spouse John D Lofthouse so far!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 3, 2013 5:48:27 GMT -5
There is 10 years between Margaret (1921) and Estelle (1931) and there have certainly been similar instances in other families but then you need to consider the marriage of George Underwood to a Dunn girl in 1930. It does look more likely that Estelle was a daughter of George rather than Lionel Underwood but proof is still required. CT
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Post by tenpoundpom on Mar 14, 2013 8:27:38 GMT -5
A different tack, but related to the Trewhella line. This is the IOS "Edwards problem" I alluded to in another post. I'd forgotten that I had worked out the answer all by myself.. ;D
Anyway...here's the story.
CFHS database has two marriages between Frances Edwards and Samuel Sanderson. One is on 18 Jan 1810, and the other is on 7 January 1811. There are two Frances Edwards of marriable age around this time. One, bapt in 1790, is the daughter of John Edwards and Jane Johns, and the other, bapt 1793, is the daughter of William Edwards and Catherine Mumford. I have pretty much put the 1810 marriage as being between Frances (1790) and Samuel Sanderson, born 1788 (son of Samuel Sanderson and Sarah Phillips). I was left wondering whether the 1811 marriage was between the other Frances Edwards (1793) and a hitherto unknown Samuel Sanderson. I also wondered whether it could be the same couple but couldn't work out how two separate marriage dates could exist.
The CFHS database is pretty thin on detail. So I went through all the possible IOS images on Family search. The 1810 marriage was easily found, but not so the 1811.
I began to wonder whether it was in a BT or some other record. However the answer was staring me in the face all the time. I was just a bit slow on the uptake. The 1810 marriage took place in Tresco, and recorded in the Tresco register. An examination of the image sets shows that the Tresco marriage record was later entered by a hand written transcription into the St Mary's register. The Tresco register marriage date has been correctly transcribed by CFHS and entered thus, but the St Mary's register date has been incorrectly transcribed, so that is why there are two marriage records with different dates for the same couple, not two seperate marriages for same named different couples....another transcript of a transcript trap to fall into!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 15, 2013 0:58:35 GMT -5
Simon - well then, I don't have the CFHS records for IOS and these marriages are not in the OPC database but there does seem to be a little confusion involved here! But I do have copies of the IOS registers and I think I can solve the dilemma for you. As you say the marriage of Samuel Sanderson and Frances Edwards has been recorded twice but there are in fact three registers covering marriages for that period. P206/1/6 - Marriages, 1808-1837 - Book of printed forms used for Marriages at St Mary's There is no record of the marriage of Samuel Sanderson in this volume P206/1/21 - Register of Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, Off-islands, 1797-1836 - Image 077 Samuel Sanderson Bachelor & Frances Edwards Spinster both of St Mary's Island, Scilly, were married in this Church of Tresco Scilly by Banns Jan:y the 18th. 1810 P206/1/5 - Register of Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1799-1834 - records for St Mary's (FamilySearch has this labelled as 1796-1834 but it is in fact 1799-1834) The image you need is Image 042 This is where the problem lies but in fact the only error is with the CFHS transcription - there is NO ERROR in the register itself! But whilst there is no error there is perhaps a possible reason for a trasncription error to occur. The entry reads:- Saml Sanderson & Frances Edwards both of St Marys were married in Tresco Church Jan y 18th 1810But if you do not read it carefully it actually looks like:- Saml Sanderson & Frances Edwards both of St Marys were married in Tresco Church Jan 7 18 th 181 ASo if you read it quickly the date could be misread as Jan 7. The '18 th' may then either be ignored or somehow confused for the year. And ' 181A' is how I can best describe the way the actual year is written with the last number being distorted by excessive ink. Take another look at the image and I think you will see what I mean. CT
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Post by tenpoundpom on Mar 16, 2013 6:54:32 GMT -5
CT,
I'm feeling a little sheepish about this! I'd forgotten that I had "solved" the problem when I made the post on the other FamilySearch thread. When I took another look at my notes I saw that I'd worked it out. Perhaps I did not make that clear enough on my previous entry in this particular thread. I went through the exact same process of going through all the marriage records from the IOS in the relevant timeframe. The "Ah Ha" moment was when I saw that "Jan y", as an abbreviation for January, had been transcribed as "Jan 7". It all fell in place then, and I was happy that I had to only account for one couple, not two.
I really should have made it much clearer in the previous message that I had resolved the issue. Going through those parish record images consumes a lot of time (well it does for me!), and I imagine that your time could have been better spent. Apologies.
Simon
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 16, 2013 8:01:12 GMT -5
Not a problem ol' mate! That it is explained again where others can see it makes it another 'educational tool'! Besides that it also gave me an opportunity to check through some IOS records again and keep myself familiar because they are a little different to most. CT
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Post by tenpoundpom on Jun 8, 2013 3:34:31 GMT -5
Thx PM sent
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