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Post by nzjohn1 on Oct 18, 2010 4:44:36 GMT -5
Hi CT,
Have to sign off - not much progress today - an etching of Anna Wolfe, and the detail that she died in childbirth 18 months after marriage. Also the home of Robert Snow T.
There is no further mention of Vera Truveller on any website.
Cheers
NZJohn
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 18, 2010 8:17:11 GMT -5
Sorry NZJohn1 - I was busy on a couple of other queries and did not check back to this thread until after you had gone. Nothing new as yet but I have a few items to read through after having searched the Russian pages again for Truveller. I am a little confused with the 'suden' mention of Vera as the wife of Cheremesova. 'A Baltic Odyssey' was written by Elvi Whittaker based on discussions with and memories of Martha von Rosen (nee Kugelgen). It includes photos which include one of Martha with her mother who is named as Anna von Kugelgen consistently throughout the book. Ah! - maybe the clouds begin to part! Ernst von Kugelgen was, according to IGI, born in 1871 and Anna may well have been of similar age. As William Frederick T died about 1859 then Anna is clearly not his daughter. This means the information in the book would be correct and that she was the grandaughter of WFT. Logically, based on this latest information, the obvious link to WFT now becomes Vera. Yet only Anna and Sophia appear in the portrat as daughters of WFT and wife Maria! I think we need Kirill to give us some more help here! I will look at this a little more tonight and see what more I might make of it. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 19, 2010 10:59:44 GMT -5
Believe it or not - I have finally found Thomas TREWHEELLAR! ;D
Thomas TREWHLLAR, age 37 buried 30th May 1837 St Mary's, Lancaster, Lancashire
Ref - FamilySearch Beta - England Deaths and Burials 1538-1991.
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Post by sue on Oct 19, 2010 12:48:50 GMT -5
They got around, this family - that's another 50 miles north from Liverpool, I recall.
Now, that family story about him falling out with his father & leaving home forever.....
Age 37 at death in 1837 (2nd marriage didn't last long then), therefore born c 1800.... if the father burial date we found in Canterbury is correct, my, he was a precocious child! ;D
Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 19, 2010 14:36:40 GMT -5
Yes - I had already decided to put that little story aside as slightly unreliable! But like my 2xgt-grandfather's brother and the story about him. My grandmother told me that Uncle Kit was never talked about. Story in the family was that he was married with a young child but that he ran off with another woman. It didn't actually take me too long to find the truth! After leaving the mines and moving to Melbourne he joined the St Kilda Yacht Club where he one a few trophies. He was also keen on building his own boats. In December 1884 he was to sail to Geelong to take part in the annual Regatta with his friend Frederick Brooks. A big storm was brewing and he was advised not to go. But Christopher being a Trewhella chose to ignore the warnings and set off with his mate in his Yacht 'Rover'. The Yacht was located by its mast rising up out of the ocean but Christopher's body was never found! Yes, he was married and had a daughter and a son was born a few months after he died but that child did not survive. Family tales - begin with a grain of salt and then see how things begin to pan out before thinking about how much you are willing to believe. But back to the subject of this thread! Finally found the burial for Thomas and now we need to find his baptism. In fact we also still require baptisms for two known siblings of Thomas and I suspect there may be at least one more child involved. But progress is being made. CT
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Post by nzjohn1 on Oct 22, 2010 4:49:58 GMT -5
Hi All
Breakthrough perhaps#2
translated "Anna Vasiliovna Cheremisinova (born Truveller) died 1908, buried N47, I4-22"
N47 = Holy Trinity Cemetery, Peterhof, St Petersburg. (note the "sin" in the surname - re previous comments)
two possibilities -
Nadia is the same person as Vera is the same person as Anna. We know much about Anna and if we had her birthdate we could perhaps confirm that she is the Anna of the painting now in the Kiev Gallery. I have yet to get a reply from the curator there.
Vera is the same person as Anna and a younger sister of Vladimir, which would then make Sophia also a sister of Vladimir (mother Maria Koslyninova for all three). Anna of the picture was 15 when painted 1856 which could conflict with the age of Vladimir, also 15 that year. This is my preference.
I also have another reference to Richard I. Truveller who was alive in 1854, thus is probably Richard of Tula, who died in Switzerland. This Richard may have been living with Robert Snow - or at least in the same province.
Also have downloaded a long historical account of the formation of the ponds and islands of Peterhof. Diagrams, plans etc etc. William/Vasily was the engineer who apparently had the contract for their formation and was granted land on Holguin Island and on the shore nearby. It will take me some time to translate it.
Studying the Trewheellar's is not simple or boring is it?
Cheers
NZjohn
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 22, 2010 5:57:11 GMT -5
Certainly not simple and certainly not boring! Do you mean Robert Snow Truveller? How you have found this and a few other items has me astounded! But this does show a conflict in information with another record stating it was 'Vera' who married Cheremisinov. And I am going to hazard a guess that his name was Peter. (Based on my understanding from 'A Baltic Odyssey' that the wife of Ernst von Kugelgen was Anna Petrovna Cheremissinof) I am thinking that you know quite a bit more than I do about her. In fact I don't think I knew of her until I found mention of William Trewheler in 'A Baltic Odyssey' and then when I found the query from the Kiev Gallery about the portrait. Now for just a few comments about your scenarios regarding Nadia, Vera and Anna. The details posted regarding the painting of Anna and Sophia mentions that information is known about 'their brother Vladimir'. This seems to be reasonably reliable information so it might be safe to say that these three were children of Maria. Nadia, to my knowledge, is only known from the information supplied by Kirill. That information as I recall said that William had been married and that he came to Russia with daughter Nadia after having been widowed. I am not totally comfortable with this as I think it can safely be said that William came to Russia with his parents and brothers sometime between about 1813 and 1818. We also have information that he left the 'Institut fur Wegeingenieure' in 1829 as an Engineer-Lieutenant with his brother Richard. (ref Amburger) So - did William return to England for a time after 1829?? He was born in 1808 so even when he married Anna Wolfe he would only have been about 26 years old. I think we need to know more about the information surrounding Nadia and that first marriage. 'Vera' is probably a little more strange given you have now supplied a burial for Anna Vasiliovnoa Cheremisinova. I have only seen her as 'Vera' in the article I found regarding 42 St Petersburg St, Peterhof. I would be interested to hear more of this reference. Nothing new from me in the last couple of days but once I clear the brain out again I will try searching some more. CT
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Post by nzjohn1 on Oct 22, 2010 18:44:12 GMT -5
Hi CT,
Firstly, let me explain how I work the web. I do it all in Russian and have my "find" tag also in Russian. I have the results translated by Google with a little help by me. In general I get far more hits than in English (pdf's for instance), and I get all excited when I find something which makes the tedium and intensity of the search worthwhile. But when I get excited I can jump to poor conclusions and in the meantime forget where the data came from - I then go right through the whole process again to find the source - which of course is in Russian.
Richard Ivananov Truveller. Memorial Book of the Russian Empire 1854. Name listed but I've written to a Russian genealogist enquiring if there are further details given.
Am thinking at present - 4 generations
William m. Maria Vladimirovna Kozlyanovoy dau. Anna Vasiliovna m (ca 1860's) Cheremisinov (yes, probably Peter as you say. The name Vera IS a problem.) (Anna died 1908) dau. Anna Petrovna m. (ca. 1890's/1900's) Ernst Kugelgen (Anna died 1921) dau. Martha m. Jurgen von Rosen.
Cheers
NZjohn
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 22, 2010 20:40:35 GMT -5
Well I just lost another message! Due to a problem with another web page and on another IE Session. Now that you have explained about Richard in 1854 I realise that I have seen it and did save a copy. I am not sure if we follow exactly the same process but I also search the Russian pages. But I just go to Advanced Search in Google, type in TRUVELLER as the search term and click 'Language - Russian' so perhaps you are able to find a little more than me. But I have been unable to find any details of burials in Holy Trinity Cemetery at Peterhof. How did you locate that one?? And are there any more of interest in that Cemetery?? Ref: VERA My interpretation of the portrait in the Kiev Gallery is that it was of the daughters of Maria. With Vladimir mentioned as 'their brother' it indicates to me that Maria had only three surviving childlren - Vladimir, Anna and Sophia. Based on that then VERA would be:- 1. Another name for Anna or simply an error 2. Another name for Nadia or an error 3. A daughter of Anna Wolfe Somehow I think that this is not simply 'another name' for Anna or Nadia but is more likely to be an error. Unless she was a daughter of Anna Wolfe. I have added this option because I am sure I copied a reference the other note which suggested that Anna Wolfe died either as a result of or during childbirth. Although there was no actual mention of the child I think it worth considering the possibility that there was one that survived. Somehow it seems more sensible to me that there was a child named Vera rather than this being another name for Anna or Nadia. (Unless, of course, it was simply an error!) More hunting now. CT
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Post by nzjohn1 on Oct 22, 2010 23:10:04 GMT -5
hi CT I should have mentioned that I search using the cyrillic alphabet. Re Cheremisinova Anna www.proibis.by.ru/002-007-003.htm. The problem is that google translates only a section of the longer articles and thus does not pick up all references to a name. In this case go right down to near the end of this article, past the Y's and X's, and you come to the odd cyrillic characters - che of Cheremisinov is one of those - it looks like a straight-sided Y. Anna is the 9th name in that group. I have done the same with Vera T. in cyrillic, but nothing came up. Cheers NZJohn Cheers NZJohn googling cheremisinova anna N47 does not find this site as the search engine only searches the translated section. You could copy the cyrillic "truveller" from Anna's entry and paste it into your search. I think you will be surprised as to how many extra references are returned.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 23, 2010 2:34:26 GMT -5
G'day NZJohn - once again (now that I have the clues) I find that this is something I downloaded a year or so back. I think at that time though that I only had the Cyrillic reference and could not translate the entry. But there is now another way that it can be done and I found this out after being confronted with partially translated pages. If you search using 'Truveller' with the Russian Language option there will be lots of hits. Opening the larger ones using the translate function only translates part of the page as you have said and quite often the 'Truveller' reference is in the untranslated section of the document. The way around it is to open the 'original page' - i.e. open the page in Russian. Then go to the Google Toolbar (if you have it installed) and use the Translate Button there and you will find that the whole documented is translated. That's what I have just done with the St Petersburg Necropolis page and I have used the function recently with other large documents. Unfortunately I have not yet found a workaround for the larger PDF files. BTW - if you try to save the page you have just translated by the above method it will only be saved in Russian. But you can copy and paste the translation to a Word document and save it easily enough. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 24, 2010 22:40:20 GMT -5
More confusion! - RATCHINO NZJohn - Kirill has supplied information linked to Ratchino - specifically the death/burial of two children of Richard and Catherine (Albrecht) Trewheller as well as Catherine herself. If you search hard enough you will find that there are map references to at least FIVE places in Russia called RATCHINO. Orenburgskaya Oblast Moscovskaya Oblast (2 here) Lipetskaya Oblast Leningradskaya Oblast The one in Orenburgskaya Oblast seems nowhere near any previously recorded area associated with the Trewhellers and the two in Moscovskaya seem to be more associated with Moscow itself. Ratchino, Lipetskaya Oblast - this one is Southeast of TULA Ratchino, Leningradskaya Oblast - this one is Southwest of ST PETERSBURG and not a long way from PETERHOF The question is - which of the two is that referred to by Kirill? There is at least one reference I found online to the ALBRECHT family building a Manor at Ratchino with this estate passing to Katherine Truveller in 1859. This Manor is referenced in "One-hundred Manors of St Petersburg Province" and "Aristocrats Mansions of St Petersburg Province. Kingisepp Region" But then you wrote the following regarding the 1854 reference to Richard in 'Memorial Book of the Russian Empire 1854':- CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 24, 2010 23:35:37 GMT -5
NZJohn - Whilst continuing to try and find more references to the family in Russia I came across a link that brought me back to this:- And I refer particularly to - Back to Richard T. and Martha Snow. An early version of the T-tree (1980's) has these children Martha b. ? c. 1785 and married a ClarkeJohn Simon b 1788 Thomas b. about 1794 In letters from Nicholas Trewheler he refers to Ann (sister to John) having gone to Russia and married a Clark. And then we find Charles and ELIZABETH Clark baptising a son at the British Chaplaincy in St Petersburg and giving him the name James Trewheller Clark. So we have two definite references to the wife of 'Mr Clark' having been a daughter of Richard and Martha Truewheellar. We know now that the first is not quite correct as Martha died young. That information appears to have been from Thurston and left us with the reference from Nicholas. We have possibly accepted Ann as the wife of Mr Clark purely because she was 'last woman standing' in the information we had. But the appearance of Charles and Elizabeth Clark using the name Trewheeller now suggests to me that Nicholas also may have been wrong. I am probably repeating myself but I think we do need to pursue this until we find the correct answer. Given the first known child of Charles Clark was baptised in 1821 then I think Elizabeth could well be the daughter of Richared and Martha. And then there is daughter Elizabeth MARTHA Clark! If we could just find the baptisms for ALL the children of Richard and Martha I am sure it would be more than helpful. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 25, 2010 3:41:14 GMT -5
NZJohn - more bleary-eyed searching but I do have some success to report! Anna Vasil'evna Trewheller married Petr Nikol. Ceremisinov (born 1859) Daughter Anna Ceremisinov married Ernst von Kungelgen This information from the Erik Amburger Databank. This means that VERA is the 'error' but I am yet to find out why the name would be used for Anna. Anna (Trewheller) died at Peterhof 21st October 1908 according to Amburger. There are more records of the Trewheller family which I will send via email along with the links to use to access the Amburger database. Along with the above entry there is also another entry that supports part of the information supplied by Nicholas Trewheler in one of his letters of the 1930s to Thurston in New Zealand. Nicholas mentioned a son CHARLES to John and Ann Trewheeler and amongst the Amburger information is one KARL Trewheller with an indication he was son of John. (I needed to check my Dictionary for confirmation but KARL is another name for CHARLES) The children of John and Ann as supplied by Nicholas were sons Richard, William, John, Robert Snow, Charles and Michael and two unnamed daughters. It is probable that the two daughters became Mrs Heinrich and Mrs Thureck as discussed in earlier posts. Of the sons we have further evidence of Richard, William and Robert Snow and we now have 'Karl' who was probably Charles. John is a little awkward but Nicholas said that he was born in Russia. We have a John Coulter Trewheellar born to John and Ann in Kent and then there is the burial of William Coulton Trewheellar six months later. I am sure this must be the same child. We then have baptisms in Russia for John Trewheller Snow and Robert Trewheller Snow and, as I have stated before, I am sure that these are really Trewheller rather than Snow children. But there is one son left - MICHAEL. Nicholas stated that it was Michael who married and went to Omsk but we now know from Kirill that it was actually William or, probably more accurately, William's son Vladimir. The question is then - Was there a son named Michael? CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 25, 2010 12:30:24 GMT -5
NZJohn - I am not sure if my cursory geographical studies of Russia are teaching me anything much that I remember but ..... If I have things correct then Odessa, Nikolajew, Simferopol, Sevastopol and Bessarabya are not that far distant from each other. If you have checked through the information I emailed you then you may have picked up on the fact that Karl Trewheller was at Sevastopol. The Amburger record shows that Karl was son of John Trewheller and is therefore probably the Charles mentioned by Nicholas Trewheler in his letters to Thurston. Let's say that this gives us one confirmed member of the family of John and Ann Trewheller 'attached' to the Ukraine. It is now worth turning our attention back to some information we discussed about a week ago. 1834 - Johann Thureck and Elizabetha (nee Trewheller) - NIKOLAJEW 1836 - Johann Thureck and Elizabeth (nee Trewheller) - BESSARABIYA 1838 - Wilhelm Heinrich married Anna Trewheller - NIKOLAJEW 1839 - Wilhelm Heinrich and Anna (nee Trewheller) - SIMPFEROPL, St Petersburg (this is the odd one as Simpferopl is in the Ukraine) but .... 1840 - Johann Thureek and Elizabeth (nee Trewheller) - ORANIENBAUM, St Petersburg (this one is correct) 1842 - Wilhelm Heinrich and Anna (nee Trewhellar) - SIMPFEROPOL 1845 - Johanna Joseph Thureck and Elisabeth (nee Trewheller) - ST PETERSBURG 1847 - Elizabeth Heinrich d/o Johann and Elizabeth buried - SEWASTOPOL It seems to me that there was a bit of toing and froing going on between St Petersburg and the towns of the Ukraine - at least by the Thureck family. From Nikolajew etc. it is a fair way to Novgorod, Tula and Moscow .... but it is a fair distance further to St Petersburg. Given the information we now have for Karl I am of the opinion that Anna Heinrich and Elizabeth Thureck are almost certainly the two 'unnamed' daughters of John and Ann Trewheller as mentioned by Nicholas. I would like something a little more certain than this. But I am reasonably happy that it is the correct scenario. CT
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