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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2008 17:56:48 GMT -5
CT
Will keep an eye out for Emma Jane in Christchurch.
While you were away last week I was idly looking at the family of John Quick and his wife Alice nee SMITHand their three children Mary S., Honor S., and Peter Bryant (still fascinated by the Peters).
So I deduced that John was the brother to Christianna, Elizabeth, and Alice, all four who were married in St Ives between 1853 and 1860 - and all children of Paul (a miner).
So I suggested to myself that this Paul would be the one who married Alice HOSKING at St Ives in 1828. I then surmised that Paul was the son of Richard and Elizabeth DANIEL who married in St Ives in 1798. My reasoning for this is two-fold. First in the 1841 census Paul and Alice were living at Chyanchy and along with their children there was also mother Elizabeth and a male Richard who matches the age of Paul's brother. Secondly, Paul also had a sister Christian.
My next assumption was really stupid and I have only just noticed how stupid it was so I will not let you know what it was. So my question is - are my assumptions correct and so was this Richard the son of Richard and Honour JENKYN - I guess that is two questions?
Lannanta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 13, 2008 18:55:12 GMT -5
Becoming quite good at this game aren't we. In answer to your question I have to say NO. By my reckoning Richard was the son of Paul and Elizabeth Quick who married at St Ives 31st December 1744. This makes much more sense given Richard named his eldest son Paul and also because there is a continued St Ives link where with Richard and Honour we have a continuous Ludgvan link going back to Henry and Jane. P.S. - I would dearly love to know what that next assumption was!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2008 20:22:54 GMT -5
CT I do not have a Paul and Elizabeth QUICK marrying in 1744 - do you possibly mean 27 Jan 1772? I do have Paul and Richard in my spreadsheet but I missed them when I was looking for a likely family for Richard. Not my day I am afraid and I did really think I was doing awfully well However I do not know who Paul or who Elizabeth (both QUICKs I assume) belong to. I would appreciate some guidance if you can oblige? Lannanta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 13, 2008 21:20:16 GMT -5
You have caught me out with an error - Egads! I inadvertantly gave the baptism date for Paul who was the son of James Quick and Mary (nee Curnow). You are correct that the marriage I referred to occurred 27th January 1772 at St Ives. Elizabeth, I believe, was baptised at St Ives 22nd July 1753 d/o Andrew Quick and Honor (nee Thomas). But I am not 100% certain of her identity given the lack of information, particularly in children, to work with. I have only ever been able to find two children for Paul and Elizabeth and they were Paul (1774) and the Richard we are discussing. Elizabeth could, in fact, be any one of seven of that name baptised between 1731 and 1756. Some of those, of course, can be fairly readily dismissed but there are still question marks and also, I think, the possibility that there is at least one and possibly two Elizabeth's who married but I have not yet identified. Proximity therefore comes into the equation. In summary (and based on the hope that I have a record of all the Elizabeth's of the era) here is what I think:- 18th April 1731 - Elizabeth d/o Henry and Elizabeth at St Hilary Severe doubts firstly because she would have been 41 when married although that could be a reason for there being only two children. And this family seems to be the one that became entrenched in St Hilary. Henry Quick was baptised at Towednack and was 'of Ludgvan' when he married at St Hilary in 1728. 15th March 1734 - Elizabeth d/o James and Ann at Gwennap I think she can almost certainly be eliminated from the equation. 26th January 1745 - Elizabeth d/o Richard and Elizabeth at Ludgvan Certainly a 'possibility' but it is Ludgvan that moves her down the list a little. 30th August 1747 - Elizabeth d/o William and Catherine at St Ives A definite possibility although I have her as the wife of Emanuel Martins 27th June 1756 - Elizabeth d/o Thomas and Elizabeth at Zennor A possibility but, at 16, starting to get into the realms of 'too young' for mine. 19th October 1755 - Elizabeth d/o Richard and Ann at St Ives Another possibility but in the same category as above being possibly a little young. 22nd July 1753 - Elizabeth d/o Andrew and Honor at St Ives The one I had chosen as Paul's wife and certainly much more likely than the previous two. I think we need to get a look at some more burial records, particularly for St Ives, to see if any of these 'dropped off the perch' prior to 1772. A dilemma that I am attempting to 'work back' to. Ian
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2008 21:51:57 GMT -5
CT
Well you certainly know how to lay out the issues, I thank you very much for that and it certainly gives me something to go away and think about.
Before I do, do you have a place for Elizabeth's husband Paul?
Lannanta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 14, 2008 0:48:55 GMT -5
Sorry, I didn't make it quite clear. He was the one baptised 31st December 1744 at St Ives s/o James QUICK and Mary (nee CURNOW). As I think I have stated in the past - I am 'reasonably' happy with most of the earlier Quicks but I need to recheck everything in case of errors or in case newer information has surfaced to require making changes. But we are perhaps a little more fortunate with Paul in that there are really only six to reasonably class as a candidate and I think three of those are 'spoken for'. Paul bp. 23rd November 1715 Towednack s/o Henry and Jane may be a bit of a wildcard entry. He could conceivably be the right one although he would have been 57 at the time of marriage. However, it is his family of which at least part moved to Ludgvan and on to St Hilary. Paul bp. 1722 s/o Paul and Grace is easy to discard because I have his Will and also the record of his burial. Paul bp. 5th March 1723 at St Ives is probably a bit like the fellow from 1715. Paul bp. 1752 s/o Paul and Grace is also easily discarded because of his Will. Paul bp. 25th June 1750 Zennor is also reasonably easy. According to Hobson-Matthews he drowned in 1784 and I know his Admon. was grante to wife Prudence. (His age was recorded by Hobson-Matthews as '30' but he would have been a couple of years older.) The remaining candidate is the one I have been discussing. I do not think there is a lot of doubt but I am certainly open to discussion on any of these. Ian
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2008 1:40:42 GMT -5
Actually me old mate when I reread your earlier message much more slowly I realised that is exactly what you had said. I guess my main area of concern is that if your main candidate for the Elizabeth is correct, then where does the name Richard come from? In my notes for Andrew & Honour in conjunction with James & Mary, the name Richard does not appear. But it appears as if Richard was the second of the two sons. The first Paul makes sense if you accept that he was named after his father. Whaddayareckon?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 15, 2008 10:08:49 GMT -5
I am not really sure just what t reckon with this particular problem. Let's try and look at some of this from another angle. The first thing is to realise that we are only dealing with the Elizabeth Quicks for whom we have some record of existence. In other words, it is slightly possible that we do not have them all. And I have just looked at a perfect example of that possibility. One of the candidates on my last list was the 1746 daughter of Richard and Elizabeth at Ludgvan. Her parents were Henry and Jane Quick who moved from Towednack to Ludgvan. with at least some of the family heading to St Hilary. Amongst his siblings Richard had a brother named John who left a Will in 1777. (Unfortunately I cannot find my notes for that one at the moment but I think I have enough information in the database to cover it.) I do know that John mention brothers James, William, Edward and Richard. Brother Henry is not mentioned but his son Gabriel is. There is a legacy to a Nicholas 'Sedman' but I think that is probably meant to be Nicholas Symons who married an Elizabeth Quick at Perranuthnoe in 71738 - my best guess is that this was John's sister. There is also a Nicholas Bond mentioned in the Will and I think he was probably the husband of John's sister Jane. Thomas Paul and Mary are not mentioned at all and I have no record of a marriage for any of them. And now we come to the interesting part. Brother Richard had four children - Jane (1744), Elizabeth (1746), Anne (1748) and Richard (1752) and none of them were mentioned by John. BUT - his executor was named as WILLIAM son of his brother RICHARD! I have just done again what I have done several times over the years- search for any record of a son William for Richard and Elizabeth. And I still cannot find anything about him. So it is just 'possible' that there is an Elizabeth we do not know about but I think it is really a slim chance. Of the potential Elizabeths that I produced we need to bear in mind that we need two of them - one each to marry Emanuel Martins and Paul Quick in 1768 and 1772 respectively. I have checked the entries in Phillimore again and there is no mention of either Elizabeth being of another Parish and likewise no indication that they wee 'minors' or widowed. There was also no indication that either marriage may have been by Licence. I think then that we can only work on the fact that we are looking for unmarried Quick girls who are at least 18 and probably resident of the Parish. That means that the last three (those baptised in the 1750's) can be discounted for Emanuel Martins and the younger two of those I think can also be eliminated for Paul Quick. The girl from Gwennap I think can be discounted for both Emanuel and Paul and so we are down to three. (Three for Paul and two for Emanuel. 26th January 1745 - Elizabeth d/o Richard and Elizabeth at Ludgvan Certainly a 'possibility' but it is Ludgvan that moves her down the list a little. 30th August 1747 - Elizabeth d/o William and Catherine at St Ives A definite possibility although I have her as the wife of Emanuel Martins 22nd July 1753 - Elizabeth d/o Andrew and Honor at St Ives The one I had chosen as Paul's wife ...... Back to you old chum.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2008 4:03:32 GMT -5
CT Once again you have the advantage with your more extensive knowledge of the family, and my records are small in comparison. But I do feel that something is not quite right here. Given the common naming patterns of the time I do not feel comfortable without a Richard lurking somewhere in the background. Maybe this Paul needs a bit more of a look at. It would help to explain only two children? If you were still of the opinion that Paul's wife Elizabeth QUICK was the daughter of Andrew QUICK and Honour THOMAS, and accepted that this Andrew is at the moment in the wrong place on the tree of QUICKs, would that make a difference to your thinking? Lannanta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 16, 2008 12:14:08 GMT -5
But I also have the disadvantage of a head full of the family plus multitudes of data on PC, in books and on paper. All that combined can often lead to confusion and certainly leads to headaches. All right - let's take a look at Paul and see what we find. I was going to say that we had two to work with but, in line with your comments, I have decided to include one other so let's take a look at each in reverse order. 1. bp. 31st December 1744 at St Ives s/o James and Mary (the one currently assigned to the 1772 marriage. He would have been 26 at the time of marriage and the name Richard does not appear in his immediate family. We know that he was still alive in 1765 as he was named an executor of his father's Will and was given an equal share with brother Andrew in Borallan. 2. bp. 5th March 1723 at St Ives s/o Paul and Christian (Harvey) His siblings were Elizabeth, William, Christian, Blanch and Gabriel. No Richard in sight, Elizabeth and William named for his parents and Christian after his wife. I have just identified Christian Harvey as daughter of Benjamin and Blanch (Richards) Harvy who had a son Gabriel and a daughter Blanch who died at the age of 14. 3. bp. 23rd November 1715 at Towednack s/o Henry and Jane. Back to the 'wildcard' family again but this time with a slightly different viewpoint. I think probably my initial reasons for the match-up of the particular Paul and Elizabeth for the 1772 marriage were based on the age of the individuals combined with who of each name seemed to be 'available'. But the fact, as you have more than once pointed out, that they had only two children and that those two children were named Paul and Richard is a very good reason for taking another serious look at the situation. Paul 1. seemed the obvious choice at the time as the other two were 'too old'. We also have no evidence to say what happened to any of these three just yet as far as I know except to say that I am sure none of them are still alive. Paul 2. would have been about 47 at the time of this marriage and is quite realistic especially when there were only two children. But there is no Richard in his family to explain the second son in which case we are back to Elizabeth's family again for the source of that name. Paul 3. would have been 56 or 57 in 1772 and is the obvious one to consider 'out of range'. But we come back again to the fact there were only two children and we have ample evidence of men of this age marrying and also having children at this age and even older so I am now prepared to give him some serious consideration. More importantly - this bloke had a brother named RICHARD. Problems1. and 2. have no-one named Richard in their immediate families. 1. seems the most likely because of age yet it is his age that produces a problem because one would expect to see more than two children 3. because of age would seem the least likely yet did have a brother Richard and could well have been capable of fathering two children. But there is a further problem with 3. and his brother Richard. It was their brother John who died in 1777 and left the Will that was discussed yesterday and in which there was no mention of Paul or of any children Paul may have had. I really need to find my extract of that Will. Seems to me that John has only mentioned living brothers so we must assume then that Paul had died by 1777. That is no real problem as, if this were the Paul who married Elizabeth in 1772 his second son was baptised in 1776. All of John's married siblings had children yet only two were mentioned in his Will - a bequest to Gabriel son of Henry and then the naming of Richard's previously unknown son William as executor. It all 'seems' to indicate that Paul was probably deceased and unmarried. I will leave you to think about this and await some feedback while I pursue some other things. Won't go into the Elizabeth side again now as I think that was covered in the previous note. CT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 2:49:25 GMT -5
Evening CT I know that you are absorbed with your present Trewhella threads so I thought you might like to have a wee change and consider the following. ;D In fact there is a Richard in this family. The Richard Quick who married Anne Luke was an uncle of this Paul, which suggests the responsibility for bringing the name into the family may not solely lie with Elizabeth. I would like to suggest the following, working back from the family of Richard Quick and Elizabeth Daniel: Richard & Elizabeth - married 1798, St Ives Children: Elizabeth, Paul, William Daniel, Richard, Christian, Thomas & Billy Noall - baptisms from 1800 to 1817. For me, the fact that the first children are not necessarily named after the parents, is good fodder to suggest that they are named for the grandparents (not an exact science I know) so it is fair to suggest that the next generation is Paul Quick and Elizabeth Quick married in 1772 in St Ives - as we have surmised in the past. I am now suggesting that the fact that there were only two children certainly does support the notion of a late marriage for at least one of the partners as you stated. Paul being the son of Paul and Christan Harvey is supported in some little way further by the name Christian (bap 1812) appearing once again in the family. If you, or anybody else for that matter, would like to comment I would appreciate having my logic tested. Lannanta PS Cornwall in 8 days - can't wait for Zennor in the autumn!! ;D ;D
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 27, 2008 8:07:51 GMT -5
But if Elizabeth were the daughter of Andrew and Honour then she had a sister named Christian. I have just found something that might clinch the identity of Elizabeth Quick! St Ives Marriages 27th January 1772 = Paul QUICK m. Elizabeth QUICK Witnesses:- ANDREW QUICK, John GRENFELL ;D But let's have a real good, hard look at this before making the ultimate decision. As far as I am aware there was only one Andrew Quick with a daughter named Elizabeth - the man who married HonorThomas. This Elizabeth also had a brother named Andrew but he would have been only 14 when Elizabeth married and extremely unlikely to have been the witness. And now for a 'slight' problem that requires some thought. If I have identified the correct Paul Quick for this marriage (i.e. s/o James QUICK/Mary CURNOW) then he had a brother named Andrew. Perhaps two other marriages around the same time might give us some clues. 28th December 1773 - Paul QUICK m. Jane QUICK Witnesses:- Andrew QUICK, Paul QUICK This Paul was, I believe, the son of Paul QUICK/Grace BERRYMAN. And Jane was, I again believe, the daughter of James QUICK/Mary CURNOW and therefore a sister to the Paul who married Elizabeth. In this case the Andrew (witness) is almost certainly Jane's brother. Paul (witness) has to be either Jane's brother or Paul's father. 3rd February 1772 - Richard BARAGWANATH m. Ann QUICK Witneses:- Andrew QUICK, Paul QUICK. In this case I am as near certain as can be that Ann was also a daughter of James QUICK/Mary CURNOW in which case the two witnesses are most likely her brothers. If you look closely here you might just see a potential reason for the naming of the second son of Paul and Jane QUICK - RICHARD. Could he have been named (for whatever reason) after RICHARD BARAGWANATH, Paul's brother-in-law? My opinion is that the man who witnessed the marriage of Paul and Elizabeth was her father - especially considering Elizabeth would have been about 18 at the time of marriage. And here is something else of interest. Paul QUICK buried 25th April 1779 at St Ives. Of those Paul Quicks baptised before 1780 I have five for whom I currently have no burial. bp. 23rd November 1715 Towednack s/o Henry and Jane (This family ended up at Ludgvan) bp. 5th Mary 1723 St Ives s/o Paul and Christian bp. 31st December 1744 St Ives s/o James and Mary bp. 7th Marych 1762 Towednack s/o James and Mary bp. 12th June 1774 St Ives s/o Paul and Elizabeth This could easily be the Paul whom we are discussing and, although 2.5 years after Richard's baptism, could help explain whey there were only two children. And it gets EVEN BETTER. 1st October 1780 - Thomas NOALL, t., married ELIZABETH QUICK, WIDOW, at St Ives I would not mind knowing who witnessed that marriage! And I would surely like to know what you think of the situation now.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 27, 2008 10:26:23 GMT -5
Lannanta - a little more food for thought for you.
IGI records only two marriages for a Thomas NOALL to someone named Elizabeth.
The first is the 1780 marriage to Elizabeth QUICK, widow (Although IGI states the years as 1781!).
The second is the marriage to Elizabeth BEVAN 18th September 1791.
What is interesting is that if a check is made for children of Thomas and Elizabeth NOALL at St IVes there are thirteen recorded.
The first of these is 25th February 1781.
In fact there are SIX children baptised to Thomas and Elizabeth NOALL between the time of the 1780 marriage and the 1791 marriage to Elizabeth BEVAN.
This means that Elizabeth QUICK, widow, was still quite young when she lost her first husband.
Furthermore - there are two baptisms in 1792 and another two in 1795.
And I can now return to that name - CHRISTIAN.
One of those two baptisms to Thomas and Elizabeth NOALL in 1795 was - CHRISTIAN!
So, accepting that Thomas and Elizabeth (widow Quick) were still having children in 1795 (and possibly later) we can determine the probability that Elizabeth was born no earlier than about 1748.
If we start by looking for an Elizabeth who was born a Quick then are looking at 1755 d/o Richard and Ann or 1753 d/o Andrew and Honor.
Assuming that the widow who married Thomas NOALL was previously the wife of Paul Quick then:-
Elizabeth of 1755 would have been only just 16 when she married Paul - but we can explain Richard.
Elizabeth of 1753 was 18 and Andrew Quick witnessed the marriage.
I am definitely still in favour of this latter Elizabeth.
If we look at other Elizabeths who married Quick men there is only one possibility in my database - Elizabeth MAJOR married Thomas QUICK, cordwainer at St Ives 17th June 1769.
Thomas was named in his father's Will in 1767 but I know nothing more about him after his marriage.
However, the Christian NOALL bp. 1795 must belong to widow Elizabeth QUICK as the other child baptised that year was John BEVANS NOALL - he is clearly the son of the 1791 marriage to Elizabeth BEVANS.
The line-up of children to Thomas NOALL and Elizabeth QUICK
25th February 1781 unammed male 7th July 1782 Elisabeth 12th April 1784 Mary 26th December 1785 Alexander 27th May 1787 William 31st January 1790 James
26th Feruary 1792 William OR 23rd October 1792 Thomas
25th May 1795 Christian
I think the remaining children baptised after 1791 all belong to the second marriage.
To me - everything is pointing to Elizabeth being the widow of Paul and also daughter of Andrew and Honor.
Your thoughts please.
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Post by newlyn on Sept 27, 2008 13:33:09 GMT -5
I have been searching for the burials of Paul Quick and have found - ONE.
Paul Quick of Carnestaba d. 1740.
Anybody know where Carnestaba is? I can't place it.
If you already have details of Paul Quick b.1723 this can only be the Paul b.1715.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 27, 2008 14:49:46 GMT -5
Carnstabba - if you have a copy of the Ordnance Survey Map 1:25,000 series Sheet SW 33/43 I should be able to give you directions. Co-ordinates are 512 E 393 N If you locate Halsetown and follow a line North-east to Penbeagle you will find Carnstabba about half-way. Or locate Rosewall Hill and head due East towards Carbis Bay and you should find it easy enough. This Paul Quick (buried 1740) was born about 1687 s/o William QUICK and Elizabeth (nee STEVENS). Paul married Christian HARVY at Lelant 21st April 1719 and I know it is him because I have a copy (or at least a transcription) of his Will. Nice of you to 'drop in' on this thread - Lannanta and I have been a little lonely all on our own. ;D If you have any further comments on any of this, or if you have something new to offer then please do so you may just see something that neither of us do.
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