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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 26, 2010 12:03:04 GMT -5
Don't fret Tony! The Mary Furze buried at St Buryan in 1866 is not as difficult as you might think. She was Mary CARNE who married William FURZE (son of John and Constance) in 1852. In the 1861 Census they were living at Church Town and she was then 46. CT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2010 20:24:45 GMT -5
Cousin Tony is correct Mary (Tonkin) Furze, died before g-g-g-pa Uter. But who is Wm Furze (son of John & Constance (Williams)? I show they had a son John (b:1789) and Uter (b:1803), but no William! They also had 7 daughters. In 1789, John married Constance Williams, dau of Uter Williams and Rebecca Rowe. John (b: 1764) was the son of William Furze who had married Ann Jennings in 1759
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 27, 2010 4:41:37 GMT -5
According to the records at my disposal Uter was buried 2nd March 1864 at Sancreed about one month before Mary 25th April 1864 at St Levan. No baptism has yet been found for William but I believe him to be another son of John and Constance. According to Census records he was born at Sancreed about 1795 or 1796 which would place his birth between Elizabeth (1793) and Elizabeth (1798). William was buried at St Buryan 12th September 1868 age 72. Logically I would have expected to find a son named William to John and Constance but I am at a loss with his baptism. I also find it strange that there appears to be no burial at St Buryan for the first Elizabeth or for the first Sarah. The children as I have them (all at St Buryan unless noted):- John bp. 3rd June 1789 Constance bp. 31st July 1791 Elizabeth bp. 30th August 1793 ** No Burial WILLIAM born about 1795/6 at Sancreed Elizabeth bp. 17th June 1798 Ann bp. 12th October 1800 Uter bp. 13th July 1803 Sarah bp. 29th September 1805 ** No Burial Sarah bp. 21sth May 1809 Mary bp. 8th September 1811 Matthew bp. 19th June 1814 at St Levan CT
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Post by tonymitch on Aug 27, 2010 5:35:59 GMT -5
You had me worried for a bit there CT.....I had no record of William but looked him up on the census and determined that if he was indeed the son of John and Constance he would have fitted quite nicely between the two Elizabeths.
Question though....Why do you think he was the son of John and Constance? He suddenly appears, like a Genie out of a bottle. No record of baptism, too 'old' for FreeBMD, no record as far as I can see until the 1861 census. Then marries a very much younger woman and fathers a child at the age of 60. Also....Journeyman Blacksmith at the age of 65? Surely, he would have atained 'Master' status by that age.
Tony M
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 27, 2010 6:16:23 GMT -5
Tony - I cannot guarantee yet that William was a son of John and Constance but there are a few things that point to the likelihood. 1. Born Sancreed (1861 Census) - right area. 2. Born about 1795 or 1796 - beautiful timing which takes care of part of that five-year gap between the two Elizabeths. 3. Named his son John Thomas Furze which may be indicative as it appears Mary Carne was the daughter of Thomas and Mary. This offers the possibility that John Thomas was named for the two grandfathers which in turn suggests William was the son of John and Constance. 4. Apart from the baptism of Polly d/o Peter at Penzance in 1789 John and Constance appear to be the only Furze couple baptising children West of the Hayle between 1776 and at least 1810! I think this last point tells a bit of a tale on its own but if you take all four points into consideration then the possibility suddently appears more of a probability. There are three things that would be of great help here:- 1. to find a baptism record for William. 2. to locate him in the 1841 and 1851 Census. 3. the most likely (and known) available source would be the Marriage Certificate. Unfortunately it looks like the marriage may have taken place in either the Registry Office or in one of the Chapels as I have not been able to find it in any of the PRs. CT
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Post by tonymitch on Aug 27, 2010 9:28:34 GMT -5
So...we may have found another 'missing' Furze who nobody knew existed! As a matter of interest, he is living next door to a John Carne (father of Jane Guy?). and, if we have him correctly in the family of John and Constance, possibly married to the sister of his brother Matthew's wife Ann formerly Angwin formerly Carne. I'll see what the US Furze (Cousin Jack's lot) have to say.....Now what this has to do with the Tonkins....I've forgotten!
Tony M
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2010 10:01:55 GMT -5
William b: abt 1795/96 would fit, but Sancreed? All the others I do show St Buryan ... And where did Matthew come in? William Furze & Ann Jennings had a son John b. abt 1764.
He Married Constance Williams, and they had a son John b. 1789, St. Bryan. Who did John Furze b. June 3, 1789 marry?
Uter Furze (son of John & Constance) also had a son named John b. abt 1825 either in Paul or Sancreed.
I'm with Tony, back to the drawing board - some gaps to fill in.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 27, 2010 10:04:18 GMT -5
Tony - I was not previously aware that Ann had been married prior to hitching up with Matthew Furze as she is not recorded as a widow in 1837. but looking at it now Ann Carne was born at Paul about 1814 or 1815 which makes her:- Ann d/o James and Elizabeth Carne bp. 7th May 1815 Paul By my reckoning Mary Carne was probably baptised 24th July 1814 at Paul d/o Thomas and Mary Carne. (Thomas is recorded as a widower when he married Mary but I have been unable to find an earlier marriage as yet.) So the Carne girls may have been cousins but it would appear certainly not sisters. BTW - it was the burial of Mary and the subsequent mention of William that moved things away from Mary Tonkin. CT
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Post by tonymitch on Aug 27, 2010 13:57:42 GMT -5
1. Martin Angwin, Sojourner, married Ann Carne 23 July 1836 by Banns at Paul. Witnesses William Carvosoe and Richard Pentreath. 2. Matthew Furse aged 24 a Blacksmith of Newlyn, father John Furse a labourer, married Ann Angwin a Servant aged 22 of Newlyn, father James Carne a labourer by Banns at Paul on 24 Dec 1837. Witnesses Stephen Blewett Williams and Richard Pentreath. Tony M
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 27, 2010 14:51:35 GMT -5
Cousin Jack - another case of needing to remember the proximity of these Parishes in relation to each other.
Sancreed shares a fairly large border with St Buryan and each borders with Paul so it is far from unusual that William might have been born 'over the border' in Sancreed but baptised in the family 'home Parish'.
Matthew son of John and Constance Furze was baptised at St Levan 19th June 1814 - no mystery involved and it is in the St Levan register in black and white.
So far I do not know what happened to John Furze eldest son of John and Constance.
I have been unable to find a marriage or burial for him and a look just now fails to find him in the 1841 or 1851 Census.
I would suggest checking whether his father left a Will.
CT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2010 19:49:18 GMT -5
I have to keep a map of Cornwall handy, I get lost after leaving St. Just in Penwith.
I found information on John & Constance's son Matthew, that he married Ann(e) Angwin. He
was 27 and she 25. They had a child Matthew 2yrs and William 5 mos. Constance
(age 74) lived with them. This was from the 1841 census - so the time frame fits for one of
Tony's and my unkown relatives - Matthew b. 19 June 1814
The only Martin Angwins in my tree are from the 1500's. Of course my grandfather Matthew
Furze (1873) married Annie Angwin (1877), dau of James Angwin and Annie Eddy, in the early
1900's. I have never heard the name Carne - until now, but as you say it was a small world
and the proximity of the Parishes, lead to close neighbors.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 28, 2010 1:23:02 GMT -5
There really is nothing to question with Matthew. His parents were named as John and Constance when he was baptised so there can be no doubt. The children for Matthew and Ann:- Matthew Williams bp. 17th February 1839 St Just William bp. 21st February 1841 St Just and buried 29th July 1844 St Just John bp. 5th August 1843 St Just Maria bp. 28th Mary 1846 St Just and buried 5th October 1867 St Just William Henry born about 1848 St Just *** Constance Ann bp. 17th September 1853 *** I have not been able to find a baptism for William Henry but he appears in the 1851 Census and I just found him (finally!) in FreeBMD as William Henry FURZES. CT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2010 11:27:28 GMT -5
I believe I have more information on Mary Tonkin. Her parents (possibly) John Tonkin and Mary Thomas, married 22 March 1803 in Paul. Now I have Mary (the daughter) as being born in Madron, a bit North of Paul ... I found two dates for her birth 1803 and 1804. Maybe a little hanky/panky in the hayloft - so they left Paul to have Mary (dau) born in Madron - or she was born in 1804!?!
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Post by lesleya on Sept 9, 2010 11:44:58 GMT -5
Hi I've just discovered your thread about Tonkins and your offer of help. I have a Prudence Tonkin in my tree who married Richard Billing on 18th Sep 1756 in St Agnes. (IGI) I gave her a bap date of 1 May 1729, daughter of Thomas Tonkin. However, on Ancestry 5 others have given her the same husband and children but YOB 1733 and father Erasmus. Playing around on IGI I found A Thomas Tonkin (1682) and an Erasmus Tonkin (19 Nov 1698) who both had a father called John Tonkin. All St Agnes. Can you help clarify any of this? I know from experience that IGI can be a bit dodgy and I don't want to credit my family tree with people who were never related! Many thanks, lee
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 9, 2010 19:47:08 GMT -5
Lee - the first thing I need to do with this one is to have a look at the original marriage record to see who the witnesses were. Unfortunately the site that has these records available is undergoing some changes at the moment and I cannot get into it. As soon as all problems are rectified I will try and look at the record to see what help it might provide. CT
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