Gilbert/Jelbard lines... help?

[Mal]

Hi guys, I need a bit of help with the following-
Thomas Gilbert/Jelbard married Elizabeth Pollard, m. July 1817
Any dates for these two individuals, I have Elizabeth's birth as 1796 and that's all.

Furthermore, was this Thomas Gilbert/Jelbard the son of William Lebard and Grace Thomas? If so I need some info on Grace's ancestry!!!! (Thomas Thomas and Grace Michel perhaps?).

If this line is correct, i.e. at the beginning I can take it back to Thomas Gilbert/Jelbard who died in 1676 Morvah and was married to Blanche (?).

If anyone can fill in any gaps it would be much appreciated.- the female lines are difficult.

Especially on Margaret Penberhy d. 20th feb 1709
Elizabeth ('?) d 1716 Madron.
Elizabeth Daniel d. 1766 Saint Buryan

Thanks a lot in advance.

[Cornish Terrier]

Any further detail available - such as Parishes?

I have a few of the names in my database but not a great deal more just now.

I do have, somewhere , a pile of information I received from the Jelbart Society many years ago but I think I have put much of the earlier stuff into the database already.

Once I start sorting through all my (now moved) paperwork and files I should be able to find it and see if it can offer anything further.

Happy to look at it for you but it will take me some time to sort all this mess out and get properly organised.

Will try and do what I can as I progress.

[cornishmaid]

Haven't got much I'm afraid, but will give you what I have:

In the Parish of Paul on 20 July 1817 Thomas Jelbard married Elizabeth Pollard.

There are 2 possible baptisms in Paul for Elizabeth Pollard:
1. 26 July 1789, Father: William Pollard; Mother: Elizabeth
2. 24 October 1790 - Father: John Pollard; Mother: Margaret

I believe the Elizabeth Pollard baptised in 1790 was the daughter of John Pollard and Margaret Beckerleg who married on 7 May 1785 in Paul. I can't find the parents of the first Elizabeth as yet, but have only checked Phillimores for Paul, Madron and St Hilary so far.

Have you got the names of Thomas Jelbard and Elizabeth Pollard's children, just on the offchance there may be clues as to Thomas and Elizabeth's parentage?

[Mal]

Okay... according to my data (which could be wrong ) I have Elizabeth Pollard as being the daughter of William Pollard and Mary Richards of Mousehole and Raginis respectively.
Elizabeth marries Thomas Gilbert/Jelbard 20th July 1817 in Paul.
I only have one (possible child), Margaret Pollard Gilbert who marries Thomas Ellis Vingoe (I), my x4 Great Grandfather.

William Pollard may be the son of Jacob Pollard of Paul and Elizabeth Cock, but I am not sure.
Mary Richards seems to be the daughter of Thomas Richards and Thomasine.... big question mark.... Penberthy b 1720 Uny Lelant, married 1742 Uny Lelant. In turn she may well be the daughter of John Penberthy and Thomasine (?)... and there it stops.

I need to know Thomas Gilbert's parentage, William and Grace...?
I know that Thomas Ellis 1 had a daughter Grace Vingoe... so there may be a connection somewhere there.

As I say, any extra information on any of these would be great. I did get most of Jelbard information from the Jelbard society. I have Thomas but no marriage... drat!!!

PS.... Could someone clarify Raginis for me? Is it a part of Mousehole?
Thanks again
Malcolm

[newlyn]

There is a Raginnis Hill in Mousehole at the far end of the village.
I believe this hill leads to a small hamlet called Raginnis.
Going downhill! its only a few minutes walk from Mousehole Harbour.
Spectacular views from the top.
Wish I was there now!!

[cornishmaid]

I think we need to work this one through slowly.

First we have the following marriage at Paul:
13 October 1839 by Banns
Thomas Ellis Vingo, o.f.a fisherman of Paul (Father: Henry Vingoe, Fisherman)
Margaret Pollard Gilbert, full age Servant of Paul (Father: Thomas Gilbert, Fisherman)
Witnesses: Henry Vingoe & William Pollard

Thomas and Margaret's children were:
Grace, Thomas Ellis, William Henry, Elizabeth Gilbert, and Mary Gilbert
(More details on the Vingoe side can be found on the Vingoe family website)

Margaret Pollard Gilbert was buried in Paul on 12 September 1851, age 34; her daughter Mary Jilbert (infant) was buried in Paul on 21 September 1851, not long after her mother. This would put Margaret's birth year at approx 1817, which fits with her being the daughter of Thomas Jelbard and Elizabeth Pollard, who were married on 20 July 1817 in Paul.

Now if we look at the census returns, Margaret's mother Elizabeth Gilberd is residing with the Vingoe family in Back Street, Paul in 1841. She is aged 45 and a net mender. As ages were rounded down in 1841, this puts her year of birth between 1791 and 1796. Thomas Gilbert is not with the family.

In 1851 Elizabeth is still with the family at Church Street, Newlyn. She is aged 61, a Widow, Occupation: Fish Seller, born in Paul. This puts her year of birth at approx 1790.

I can't find her in the 1861 census. In 1861 Thomas Vingoe has remarried to Mary Ann, and living with them are William Henry (son of Thomas and Margaret); Margaret & Sarah Ann Vingoe (daughters of Thomas & Mary Ann); and Samuel and Mary Payne, children from Mary Ann's first marriage.

Now on to the burials. An Elizabeth Gilbert was buried in Paul on 2 November 1852, aged 64. This could be Elizabeth Pollard as I cannot find her in the 1861 census (at the moment). This would now put her year of birth at 1788.

There is another burial on 30 July 1832 of Thomas Gilbert of Newlyn, aged 41. This would put Thomas' birth year as approx 1791. I think there is a very strong possibility this is your man.
A possible baptism for him is:
23 May 1790 at Hilary - Thomas Stevens Gilbert to John Gilbert & Elizabeth. (On 27 August 1781 at St Hilary, John Gilbert, Mariner, married Elizabeth Stevens.)
The other baptisms I found in the right timescale appear to be too far away from the Paul area to be very likely. This doesn't mean, however, that there aren't more baptisms out there that I haven't found yet. You mentioned that his parents may be William Gilbert and Grace? Do you know when and where these married? Also, Thomas Ellis Vingoe's mother was called Grace, so that is probably where the name of his and Margaret Pollard Gilbert's first child came from.. possibly?

Now back to Elizabeth. If she was born c. 1789, then the marriage on 21 October 1792 at Sancreed of William Pollard, Gent. of Paul, & Mary Richards, would seem a little late (though not impossible). The two baptisms I quoted earlier would seem to be nearer the mark.

One other little thing that is niggling me is that the William Pollard who married Mary Richards was a "gentleman". Would a gentleman's daughter work as a net mender and then a fish seller? Mind you, I expect he was long gone by then. Just a thought

[cornishmaid]

Another detail which may be a pointer to Elizabeth's parents:

On 20 July 1817 when Elizabeth Pollard married Thomas Jelbard in Paul, the witnesses were Nicholas Boyens and John Pollard

[Cornish Terrier]

I think there are two very good pointers to the identity of Elizabeth Pollard:-

I believe the Elizabeth Pollard baptised in 1790 was the daughter of John Pollard and Margaret Beckerleg

On 20 July 1817 when Elizabeth Pollard married Thomas Jelbard in Paul, the witnesses were Nicholas Boyens and John Pollard

Elizabeth married Thomas Gilbert/Jelbard and named a daughter Margaret Pollard Gilbert (as I read things).

I am only quickly glancing through all this at the moment as I still have a lot of sorting out to do but from the information provided I think Elizabeth can be safely 'locked in'.

So it is the identity of Thomas Gilbert that is really the problem now.

Okay... according to my data (which could be wrong ) I have Elizabeth Pollard as being the daughter of William Pollard and Mary Richards of Mousehole and Raginis respectively

From my conclusions above I would suggest that William and Mary are probably now out of the equation.

I think we need to work this one through slowly.

I AGREE

I will have another glance through the information supplied by Cornishmaid and see if there is anything else that immediately springs to mind.

But then I really must get a bit more of this house sorted out so that I can spend some more consistent time on these problems later on.

Only other thing I can spot quickly is that we now know the name of the father of Thomas Ellis Vingoe - Henry.

Now there is an interesting entry in my database and it also explains the name 'Grace'.

John VINGOE of Sennen married Margaret ELLIS 2nd December 1769 at St Just in Penwith.

I have currently placed two children to this marriage.
Although I only have a baptism for one of them at the moment I have placed the second one here because of the names of his children.

Margaret bp. 5th November 1770 St Just (IGI)
HENRY

I believe this will be your Henry.

Henry VINGOE married Grace MANN 11th November 1797 at Paul

Children to Henry and Grace (All baptised at Paul):-

John 7th October 1798
Francis 28th September 1800
Henry 22nd August 1802
Richard Man 4th October 1804
Margaret Ellis 25th May 1806
Edward 11th August 1811
THOMAS ELLIS 7th July 1816

That's it for now exept to say that the VINGOE line is another of interest and I have mentioned it in one of the TREWHELLA threads. ;D

Will take another look at the GILBERT/JELBART side of things a little later.

[Mal]

Looking into it.... cheers! Now what about Thomas Gilbert....?
Thanks for all the info... will go back to my Pollard lines for the time being.

[Cornish Terrier]

I am working at things very slowly at the moment. (Just spent over 24 hours trying to get the kitchen sorted plus a little more of a couple of other rooms! )

I think I am going to need to be pretty fresh to tackle Thomas Gilbert but, all being well, will have a go at it tomorrow.

At least I have some pictures up on the walls now. (OH - and a kitchen I can move around in! )

[Cornish Terrier]

Some updates as I try to work through this problem.

Firstly - Cornishmaid, I will check it myself but you say that the last child of Thomas and Margaret was Mary Gilbert VINGOE yet she was baptised at Paul as Margaret Gilbert VINGOE. Interesting.

And Margaret Pollard GILBERT appears to have been baptised simply as Margaret - the middle name seems to have been adopted later.

She was baptised at Paul 1st March 1818 as Margaret JELBERT.

Thomas Ellis Vingoe, wid., married Mary Ann PAYNE, wid., d/o James WILLS 28th October 1855 at Paul.

1861 Census - Paul
North Corner, Newlyn

Elizabeth JILBERT, head, wid, 70, support from fishery, Paul
Thomas Ellis VINGOE, grandson, unm, 19, fisherman, Paul
Elizth Jilbert VINGOE, grandaur, unm, 12, scholar, Paul

That puts the 1852 burial right out of the picture.

Elizabeth GILBERD age 83 of Newlyn buried 21st January 1874 at Paul

That's her. ;D

And I agree that the 1832 burial of Thomas GILBARD at Paul is probably her husband as there is no other burial for him and we know he must have died sometime between 1817 and 1851 but probably before 1841 based on the 1841 Census as described.

Time to close this now while I have a rest and then have a look to see if I can identify Thomas for you.

[Mal]

Just can't pin down Thomas Gilbert, I have hypothesised his being the son of William Gilbert/Jelbard and Grace Thomas based on info from the Jelbard society and also by looking at the other family links, i.e. Pollards, Heads, etc. This would make him born around 1796 but as I have said it is all circumstancial Mr Poirot!!!

[Cornish Terrier]

Speaking of POIROT - I have only just picked up the latest addition to my collection - 'The Underdog'.
There is supposed to be only one more to go to complete the collection but I know there were four more films made with David Suchet.
Just looking at the spine of this latest DVD cover indicates the strong possibility that these last four films might be included to really complete the collection.
If that is the case then a really big YIPPEE!!! ;D

To more serious matters - I have performed a few searches and simply cannot come up with a record for our Thomas GILBERT.

There are only three in IGI baptised about the right time (i.e. 1790/1) but I doubt very much that any of them are the man for whom we search.

If we begin with Paul as a Parish of birth then we have two couples having children there at the right time.

William JELBARD m. Ann JASPER 31st January 1789

James GILBERT m. Nancy BLUET 30th August 1789

William and Ann baptised daughter Phillis in 1790
James and Nancy baptised daughter Nancy in 1789 and son James in 1792

The next event for anyone of the name at Paul was in 1799 and then 1808 and 1810.

The only other event was back in 1715 so the Gilbert/Jelbart families were certainly not 'of Paul'.

Now a link to the marriage of William to Grace THOMAS has been suggested.

But which marriage - there were two.

William JELBARD m. Grace THOMAS 22nd June 1776 at Sancreed, both of St Just

William JELBART m. Grace THOMAS, wid., 22nd March 1794 at
St Levan

This second couple had a son named Thomas baptised at St Levan 9th November 1794 but he would be a couple of years too late.

Going to have to keep on searching I am afraid.

[cornishmaid]

So the Thomas Stevens Gilbert bapt. 1790 to John Gilbert and Elizabeth Stevens isn't viable then

As to the last child of Thomas and Margaret Vingoe, I didn't have her baptism, I was just going from the burial transcription which has her as Mary Gilbert Vingoe. The Vingoe family website also have her as Margaret Gilbert Vingoe. Possibly the burial register said Marg., and it was transcribed as Mary

[Cornish Terrier]

Without getting a look at the original PR it is difficult but Mary and Marg. do look very similar and a mistake may have been made.

I have checked the OPR transcription and, whilst undoubtedly the same child, the baptism is transcribed as Margaret and the burial as Mary.

Viability - hmmm!

Thomas Stevens Gilbert is born about the right time, as are Thomas Gilbert at St Neot and Thomas Gilbert at Kenwyn.

But I might expect to see him recorded as Thomas Stevens Gilbert when he married.

Now it is interesting that there was another Thomas Stephens GILBERT baptised in 1841 at Gwinear, son of William and Martha.

The family appears in the 1851 Census with William supposedly born at Gwinear (can't find him in what Gwinear baptisms I have) and Thomas Stephens appearing to be the first child.

This name could, of course, be quite coincidental and have come from another family.

But it just seems to me that none of the three candidates is really the one we want - particularly as we have enough evidence of missing baptisms in the area I think we should probably expect to find Thomas.

The thinking and searching is not over yet.