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Post by allene on Aug 17, 2015 4:37:37 GMT -5
I was delighted to find this thread after having just returned from an overseas trip. I also have emails in my inbox from Nic1 and will reply separately. I am also descended from the Daniel family and for the past few years (on and off) I have been transcribing the first parish register of Zennor from the high quality images on CD (Cornwall Record Office ref FS/6/9). I also have copies of the Bodmin and Exeter BTs, 1613 church rate, early Daniel wills and wills mentioning members of the Daniel family, property leases, Trewarlis manor rentals and any other records relating to Zennor which contain names of people that I have been able to get my hands on. I have also compiled lists of Zennor names that I have transcribed from (abbreviated titles): 1522 Survey 1523 Loan 1524 Subsidy c1535 Tinners Muster 1545 Subsidy 1569 Muster 1624 Subsidy 1625 Subsidy 1628 Subsidy 1641 Protestation Return 1641 Subsidy 1664 Subsidy 1664 Hearth Tax On the basis of my searching I have included my attempt at a genealogy of the Morvah and Zennor Daniel families with the link back to Newlyn East on my website at www.allevan.com. It is interesting that Alexander Daniel of Madron, whose diary has survived, also lived at Newlyn East. Please treat the Daniel information on my website as a basis for discussion, and I would be happy to hear any comments or alternatives to what I have proposed. Now, a few of the points raised in his thread: 1. Marriage of ? Daniell to Elizabeth Holla in 1643: This entry is at the top of the page and is very difficult to read, [...] means unreadable by me. I read it as: […]ke […]yell & Elisabeth Holla were married the […] of September Phillimore records it as: [_ ]Danyell & Elizabeth Holla 14 Sep. 1641 2. The Admon of Mathew Daniel 1718: This is administration with attached statement from his widow, Mary. This is my abstract of the admon and trabscript of the accompanying statement: Abstract Bond of John Daniel of Morva, yeoman, Mathew Daniel of Morva, yeoman and Richard Keate of Madderne Gent Administration granted to John Daniel 10 September 1718 The condition of this obligation is that the above bounden John Daniell the son and Administrator of the goods chattles and credits of Mathew Daniel late of Morva deceased makes an inventory to be exhibited into the Registry of the Archdeacon of Cornwall at or before the last day of June next Sealed and delivered in the presence of William Rawlings and John Bennett Signed by John Daniell, Mathew Daniell and Richard Keate Attached Whereas Mathew Danyell of the pish of Morva in the County of Cornwall yeoman my late deceased husband died intestate And whereas I Mary Danyell his widow and relict am about the age of seventy years I am now in a feeble and weak condicion and therefore not at all able to take upon me the burthen of executing the Adminitration of the goods and Chattells rights and credits of my sayd late husband My request and desire is that the Administration of all and singular the goods and Chattells rights and credits of the sayd Mathew Daniell my sayd late husband may be committed unto John Danyell my son witness my hand and Seale the seventh day of ffebruary Ano Dmi 1717 Signed Sealed and Delivered In presence of the signe of Mary Danyell The signe of Edmund Harry 3. Marriage of Mathew Daniell: I read the entry in the 1670 BT as: Mathew Daniell was married to M[...] [...] October I think that's about all I should write in one post, but would be very happy to compare notes with anyone else, and in particular anyone would like to obtain the parish register images from the Cornwall Record Office. I will post the introduction to my transcription-in-progress of the first Zennor parish register in a separate topic as it applies to the wider population of Zennor.
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Post by gandolf on Aug 17, 2015 7:24:58 GMT -5
CT
The questions in my own mind regarding the soundness of a possible of connection the Zennor Daniel family to the East Newlyn area (relatively far away) were part of my reasons for not posting the rough notes proposal directly in the thread and instead sent to you separately. I know how easily rough theories can suddenly morph into someone else's "hard facts".
In your email acknowledgement to my note, you also mentioned reservations about the possibility of Joan Richards (mother of the illegitimate Richard Eddy born in 1717) being tentatively identified as being baptised in Breage in 1702. I agree that seemed a little far away at first glance, but note that the claimed father (another Richard Eddy) was living at Ludgvan at the time and the child was baptised at Gulval. This places the events almost halfway between Zennor and Breage, and made a connection to Breage more plausible (although far from being proven however).
allene
For your benefit, the chart CT and I are talking about is basically the same rough chart (with some minor tweaking) that I sent you in our email correspondence back in April when we were discussing the Daniel & Robarts families.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 18, 2015 7:30:23 GMT -5
Gandolf - I have looked more at the East Newlyn families and I am more inclined now to agree that part of that family migrated across to Zennor. I still have work to do before I am totally happy with the whole Daniel scenario but unfortunately I don't think it is going to happen tonight. I have also not yet had time to examine the Richards problem but with the number of Richards closer to Zennor at the time I am still reluctant to go hunting further for Joan. That is something for me to look at after I have completed what I am trying to do with the Daniels. CT
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nic1
Noweth
Posts: 24
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Post by nic1 on Aug 18, 2015 12:20:33 GMT -5
Alot of Marks in St. Agnes too. Might seem further than Newlyn East but has a mining history. Clearly some of our Zennor/Morvah Daniel's were drawn by the terms of John's brother's will to St. Cleer. He left two of John's sons property - one property being in St. Cleer. I wonder why he had been drawn to St. Cleer himself- seemingly at an awkward distance from other interests. Does anyone have any of the earlier wills from the Kea/Kenwyth Daniels?
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Post by allene on Aug 18, 2015 19:35:53 GMT -5
I do think that it is very possible that the David Daniell, son of Marke baptised in 1573 at Newlyn East is the David/Davy Daniell of Zennor in the early 1600s. The extracts of the documents I emailed to CT and nic1 do suggest a link.
Gandolf
Yes, I've been having a look at your chart and it is very helpful.
nic1 says in an earlier post that John Dannell of Zennor names his two sisters Jane and Constance in his 1701 will. The will is dated 28 November 1700 but he names Jane and Constance as his daughters, not his sisters. The relevant part of the will reads:
Item I give unto my dafter Jane Dannell twenty pounds to be paide to years after my death Item I give to my dafter Constance Dannell twenty pounds to be paid three years after my death
I have confirmed that "dafter" is an old spelling of "daughter".
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nic1
Noweth
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Post by nic1 on Aug 19, 2015 6:42:52 GMT -5
Hello, I'm not in the loop regards the 1702 Joan Richards as I have not made a study of that family but I do wonder why Breage is regarded as doubtful and too far away. Thomas Daniel married Jane Carvosso and then made a 2nd marriage at Breage to Avis Cappel. He died 1751 and Avis remarried at Madron 1753. William, the son of John Daniel and Alice Stevens married at St. Cleer to Mary Boyar and settled there - all to do with the property left him by his uncle, as previously mentioned. John Daniel also travelled in 1744 with the preacher, Jonathan Reeves, to and from Bristol. I have no doubt this was the furthest John ever travelled but I should think such a dangerous, long and arduous journey all but impossible if John and Jonathan had previously only gone two or three miles in a box zone we seem to place these people into. I am sure the Daniels travelled wider than we seem to give the credit for and likewise give the Richards you refer to credit for. There are 40-50 years difference in the things I refer to and 1702 but means of transport and travel had not altered in that time frame so I see no reason to have doubts it could have happened.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 19, 2015 7:11:59 GMT -5
My issue with Joan Richards relates to a common problem in genealogy. I am not 'pointing the finger' at Gandolf here but rather pointing out a common problem as I see it. People (in general) seem to be unaware of or ignore the fact that registers have been lost or are sometimes so damanged that they, or at least parts of them, are unreadable. Because they then cannot find a record they may be looking for in that Parish these people then search until they find (in this case) a baptism that has the right name and a date that sort of 'fits' the scenario. Unfortunately this practice often leads to incorrect information being published and then copied ad nauseum!! (e.g. Ancestry Family Trees) In the case of Joan Richards there are a number of things to be considered. 1. Breage, in context, is a rather long distance away 2. The baptism in question is that of an illegitimate child 3. There were Richards families in Gulval and the immediate vicinity at the time 4. And if born in 1702 then Joan Richards would have been just 15 when the child was born!! So the first thing to look at is the entry in the original Parish Register:- 1717 Richard Eedy ye base child of Joan Richards (ye reputed father Richard Eedy of ye Parish of Ludgvan) was Baptized June 10The implication here is that Joan Richards was a resident of Gulval which shares a rather long border with Ludgvan which was the home of Richard Eddy. And to the North Gulval borders both Zennor and Towednack which both have issues with missing/damaged registers before 1700. I could also add that there are a number of other baptisms for Joan/Jone Richards in the Western half of Cornwall, including at least one more at Breage, prior to 1702. From the transcriptions it seems there is no Joan/Jone at Gulval although I have not looked at the original records themselves. But Gulval registers for the time are very good. Ludgvan is another possible source for the Richards family and I am not sure that the actual PR baptisms have been transcribed as yet. I do know the BTs have been done but they do not cover every year. I could probably come up with a number of other reasons to be cautious about the 1702 Breage baptism but apart from the above the next most important thing to do would be to take a closer look at the Breage records to see of this Joan Richards may have married at or near Breage or possibly have been buried at a young age. CT
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Post by gandolf on Aug 19, 2015 15:57:37 GMT -5
Re Joan Richards...
Don't have a problem with CT's reasoning, as I am still uncertain myself.
My thinking was there was a possibility of the Joan's family having moved across to Ludgvan/Gulval - or even perhaps Joan having come across as as servant.
As to the age only being 15 if she was the same one baptised at Breage, it is worth noting that assuming I have the correct father (and I am fairly confident at this stage), then the reputed father was probably somewhere around the same age (not sure exactly since I have yet to identify a baptism).
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 20, 2015 4:18:20 GMT -5
Although possible I do find it very difficult to accept that we might be looking at Richard Eddy being born about 1717 to parents who were both aged around 15!! Certainly it was legal to marry at that age but finding examples, particularly in Cornwall, would be an extreme rarity. And I know we are dealing with illegitimacy here but the fact the 'reputed father' was named in the register would seem to indicate that the father was a little older than a boy. In any case, I would be interested to learn the identity of the Richard Eddy you suspect as being that 'reputed father'. CT
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Post by gandolf on Aug 20, 2015 8:14:24 GMT -5
As per the rough chart I sent you CT, my belief was that the father of Joan Richard's child was Richard Eddy, son of David Eddy and Catherine Gartrell. David & Catherine married 1697 at Zennor. However, as mentioned below an alternate possibility has just occurred to me, based on your comment about an older man as the father..
David Eddy, a yeoman of Zennor left a will dated 2 Sep 1733 and proved 9 May 1734. In it he mentions his wife Catherine, sons Andrew, William, Patrick, David, Phillip and Richard. He also mentions two presumed daughters, Catherine, wife of John Maddern and Ann, wife of Nicholas Christopher, and a grandson David (who I believe to be the son of David Jnr). One of the witnesses was Mark Daniel who was likely the son of Wiliam Daniel & Paticens Oattes, and thus an uncle to John Maddern, husband of Catherine Eddy.
David Eddy (the yeoman of Zennor above who died 1733), had a brother Richard. I suspect the brothers were probably born in the mid to late 1670's and only young children when their father Phillip died in 1683.
Richard Eddy of Ludgvan, yeoman left a will dated 24-Nov 1757, proved 1 May 1758. In his will he mentions his nephew David Eddy of Ludgvan, son of David. He also mentions other nieces and nephews, children of his late brother David, namely: Catherine, Philip, Richard, William & Patrick Eddy.
Richard's will of 1757 places his nephew David at Ludgvan (confirmed by baptisms of some of David's children in the 1720's) as well as Richard himself. My thinking when I first put this together was that with both an uncle and brother in Ludgvan, the younger Richard (son of David above) could plausibly also have been in Ludgvan. And with the younger Richard's parents marrying in 1697, and being named second after brother Phillip as joint executors of their father's will, Richard was probably the second born and could not have been born much before about 1700, thus making him perhaps 17 or 18 years old at the birth of the illegitimate child.
However your comment got me thinking. Perhaps it is even simpler than I had originally thought.
Richard Eddy (d. 1758) does not seem to have married, and appears to have no children - at least no acknowledge children. His will mentions only nieces and nephews, not a wife or children. Given this Richard Eddy was definitely in Ludgvan (at least in later life), perhaps it was actually he who was the father of Joan Richard's child? If I am right about my guess as to his probable birth range (c.1675-c.1683), this Richard would have been around early forties when the illegitimate Richard Eddy was born in 1717.
If this was the scenario, it would at least partially resolve your concern about one or both parties being in their mid teens.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 20, 2015 9:58:59 GMT -5
I was looking at Richard of the 1758 Will also but the fact that he does not mention anyone resembling Richard Eddy of 1717 dissuades me somewhat. Now you mention Richard son of David Eddy being your original possibility but I think he can probably be discounted also. I have him being born sometime before 1708 in which year he was named in a lease but I have him probably younger than his brother Phillip who was baptised at Zennor 10th September 1704. (Bishops Transcripts)
There was another Richard Eddy son of Matthew baptised at Zennor in 1681 but at this stage I know nothing more about him.
CT
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Post by gandolf on Aug 20, 2015 16:01:36 GMT -5
Thanks for the date of Phillip Eddy's baptism from the BT's. I agree he was probably older than brother Richard, and presumably the lease you mention is the one relating to Bosigan from 1708 made by his father David Eddy (can only see hints in National Archives index). Were any other of David & Catherine's children listed in the BT's?
Knowing what I do today, a couple of things that are keeping Richard Eddy of the 1758 will as a potential in the frame as a person of interest (at least in my mind):
His will mentions a Reversionery Lease of Polmear in Zennor which was taken of the Late Earl of Radner. This was probably John Robartes (1686–15 July 1757), the 4th Earl of Radnor, but may have been his cousin Henry Robartes, 3rd Earl of Radnor (1695–1741).
While it may only be coincidence, and although no known direct relationship to the family of the Earls (who were in the north), the Daniel family married into the local Robarts family and there seems to be hints of crossover into the Eddy's (if only in will witnesses etc) between the Daniel and Eddy families.
Also given the original question by Nic related to John Pormeare, that name is very similar to Polmeare and although I currently know nothing of that family, it occurs to me that Pormeare may be a corruption/variation of Polmear? Again creating a possible connection to either the Daniel or Eddy families.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 21, 2015 4:41:51 GMT -5
The only children of David and Catherine (Gartreell) Eddy found in the BTs are:-
catthern ye daughter of David Eddie baptised ffirst of Aprill 1700 philipp the son of Davied Eddie baptised 10th of September 1704 Patrick son of David and Catherine Eddy baptised Feby. 3rd 1715
The other children I have assigned as follows:-
David born c.1798 - married Elizabeth Friggens 5th January 1721 Zennor Anne born c.1701 - married Nicholas Christopher 31st December 1726 Zennor and buried 12th April 1775 Zennor age 74 Richard born bef.1708 (Bosigran Lease) - married Grace Thomas 2nd January 1741 Zennor William born bef.1713 - married Katherine Sampson 2nd November 1738 Madron Andrew born bef.1714 - married1 Jane Harry 25th April 1734 Morvah - married2 Jane Jenkin 7th February 1742 Madron
I think the approximate births of David and Anne are probably about right and as William and Andrew do not appear in the PR from 1713 onwards they must have been born during that period from 1705 to 1712 along with Richard.
CT
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Post by gandolf on Aug 21, 2015 21:10:19 GMT -5
CT, thanks for the extra BT records for the other children of David & Catherine. I agree that taking the known baptisms and naming order of the children in their father's will together, the date range of 1704-1708 seems most likely for their son Richard. And with that date range, he clearly cannot be the father of Joan Richard's child (age between 9 and at most 13 when the child was born!). *Sigh* - yet another time weeks or months of research is thrown out after further data proves it wrong. Anyway, I still currently believe Joan Richard's son Richard Eddy to be the same Richard Eddy who married three times before his death in 1774. 1st mar. at Gulval in 1741 to Frances Banfield (1723-1758). - children: Mary, Joan, Frances, Richard, Anne 2nd mar. at Gulval in 1759 to Jennifer (Jane) Nekervis (died 1760) - children: Jennifer 3rd mar. at Gulval in 1762 to Blanch Jenkins (1744-1822) - children: Blanch, Alice, Elisabeth, Edward (died in infancy), Edward, John, Phillip Trouble is (as can be seen above) Richard and his first wife (and possibly the other wives also?) have not followed any recognised form of traditional naming practices for their children. In terms of Richard's first marriage, Joan is presumably after his mother, Frances and Richard after the parents, but not clear who the other two girls are called for. Frances' parents (Edward & Wilmot) don't rate a mention. That being said, Matthew does not feature as a given name for any of Richard (1717-1774) Eddy's descendants for at least two further generations. While at first glance this might discount the possibility the Richard, son of Matthew (born 1681) being the father of the 1717 Richard Eddy, I suspect it may not prove to be that simple. For a start, we have no way of knowing for certain whether the illegitimate Richard Eddy knew who his father was,although the baptism record suggests some people knew or suspected, and it seems plausible to assume that at some point he was told who his father's name. However even if that was the case, he may not have been aware of the extended family of his presumed father.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 22, 2015 4:03:42 GMT -5
Reputed father Richard Eddy of Ludgvan is the significant part of the baptism record and it certainly points to our 1757 testator but, moving straight back to square one, do not pass go, do not collect $200.00, we still have no evidence or acknowledgement from Richard's Will that he might have been the man. CT
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