Elias Crankan Glasson

[Deleted]

CT

Elias Crankan Glasson married Ann Jeffrey in 1820 in Paul. What do you reckon the chances are that the Ann that is living with him in the 1841 census is not his wife?

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

What do you reckon the chances are that the Ann that is living with him in the 1841 census is not his wife?

Well, I have the wife of Elias buried 10th October 1827 at Paul so my first reaction is that it would be a fair bet.

However, that does not mean to say that Elias did not marry again, perhaps to another girl named Ann.

I don't know when Elias died except that he is recorded as 'deceased' when his son married 1st January 1844 but I find this rather intriguing under the circumstances:-

13th November 1843 Paul
John Williams, of age, bachelor, mariner of Buryan, son of Enoch Williams, deceased
Ann Glasson, of age, widow, servant of Paul, daughter of George Wreath, deceased
Witnesses - Thos. Williams jnr., Thos Williams

I can't find any baptism for Ann Wreath and I can't find a marriage for her to Elias but ..............

CT

[Deleted]

CT

Elias was still alive when that 1843 marriage happened - he appears in the 1851 census.... part owner of nets on the vessel Rodney at Mousehole...

Elias John Glasson, widower of the County of Paul, married the widow Ann Rowe in the Parish of St Johns, Glamorgan on the 29th December 1932.

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

Elias was still alive when that 1843 marriage happened - he appears in the 1851 census.... part owner of nets on the vessel Rodney at Mousehole...

Not quite! - It was the younger Elias who was part owner of the nets on the Rodney. Elias senior was part owner of nets on the Gleaner which was also at Mousehole.

So we have yet more proof that information in the Marriage Registers can be decidedly dodgy. It clearly states in the marriage record for Elias Glasson and Jane Symons 1st January 1844 that Elias was the son of Elias Glasson deceased.

Elias John Glasson, widower of the County of Paul, married the widow Ann Rowe in the Parish of St Johns, Glamorgan on the 29th December 1932.

So why was Elias Crankan Glasson suddenly known as Elias John Glasson ..... and what happened to him and Ann after 1851? I have not found them in the 1861 Census for England or Wales and I can find no death indexed for Elias.

Are there any clues in the marriage record that might identify Ann Rowe's maiden name or her previous husband?

CT

[Deleted]

CT

I think it is interesting that Ann has disappeared by the 1851 census and her husband Elias is recorded as being married and not a widower.... back to Wales perhaps?

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

I can't find her in Wales either - not in 1851 and not in 1861.

CT

[Glazin2018]

CT

Just while things seem very quiet I would like to reconsider this thread and see if there are new developments given the multitude of information that is out there now.

But firstly, if you have access to the Paul burial records could you have a look up of the burial for a Glasson on the 17th November 1803.  It has been transcribed as Elias, but I am wondering if that is not actually what what is written because I have no Elias that fits a death for a 73 year old.

Then the transcription of the marriage referred to previously in St Johns, Glamorgan, 1832 between Elias John Glasson, who made his mark, and the widow Anne Rowe who also made her mark.  Given that it is stated that Elias was a widower, was of the Parish of Paul in the County of Cornwall... means it can only be Elias Crankan Glasson?? Would you agree with that?

In the 1841 census at Mousehole, the census transcription lists Elias, 42, William 15, and Ann 33 in that order.. would you agree that the order is unusual for a child to be listed above its mother, and could tend to suggest that Ann is not the wife of Elias?

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

But firstly, if you have access to the Paul burial records could you have a look up of the burial for a Glasson on the 17th November 1803. It has been transcribed as Elias, but I am wondering if that is not actually what what is written because I have no Elias that fits a death for a 73 year old.

The page is a little 'fuzzy' but the forename is ELINOR not Elias. I have cross-checked this with the BTs via FamilySearch and verified the entry as Elinor. A correction has been submitted to the OPC also.

There is certainly something a little odd about Elias senior being described as 'dead' on his son's marriage certificate but I agree that the known evidence suggests Elias at Wales in 1832 is the same man from Paul who had previously married Ann Jeffery.
But there is one other 'odd' thing about all of this albeit not a totally unusual occurrence. In 1820 Elias was perfectly capable of signing his own name and the register shows he could write well and neatly yet in 1832 it appears he was either no longer able to write or simply chose not to sign but to use his mark instead.

In the 1841 census at Mousehole, the census transcription lists Elias, 42, William 15, and Ann 33 in that order.. would you agree that the order is unusual for a child to be listed above its mother, and could tend to suggest that Ann is not the wife of Elias?

No, I would not agree with that at all - in fact in many Parishes it was quite common to list all of the males in the family first and then the females, including the mother, below.

Resurrecting another item from this thread:-

However, that does not mean to say that Elias did not marry again, perhaps to another girl named Ann.

I don't know when Elias died except that he is recorded as 'deceased' when his son married 1st January 1844 but I find this rather intriguing under the circumstances:-

13th November 1843 Paul
John Williams, of age, bachelor, mariner of Buryan, son of Enoch Williams, deceased
Ann Glasson, of age, widow, servant of Paul, daughter of George Wreath, deceased
Witnesses - Thos. Williams jnr., Thos Williams

I can't find any baptism for Ann Wreath and I can't find a marriage for her to Elias but ..............

As I pointed out at the time this is most curious given what we then knew about Elias Glasson. I have now taken another look and I am pretty sure I have been able to correctly identify John Williams as being baptized at Sennen 16th March 1800 son of Enoch and Mary (nee Roberts) Williams who married at Sennen 20th December 1791.
So far I have not found this family in 1851 (probably due to John Williams being a 'mariner') but I have found them in the 1861 Census living at Mylor. John Williams was then a 'Chelsea Pensioner' and his wife Ann was age 56 and born at Swansea, Glamorganshire!

Findmypast shows only one Glasson marriage between 1820 and 1840 and that is for Elias John Glasson. As Ann would have been only about age 14 in 1820 and as there is nothing showing in FreeBMD then it follows that the widow who married John Williams 'should' be the Ann Row, widow, who married Elias John Glasson in 1832. (Back to Square One!)

The logical conclusion from that would be that there is another Elias Glasson floating about somewhere.

FMP records don't show any Ann Wreath between 1800 and 1810, at least not that I can find - and the OPC records don't show any Elias Glasson other than the subject of this thread.

BUT - there was an Ann WRAITH born 14th October 1803 and baptized 15th January 1804 to George and Elizabeth (nee Storey) WRAITH at Heworth, Durham. Durham is not exactly Glamorganshire but …

Having solved the problem of the 1803 burial I think my only other contribution to all this has been to provide more confusion!

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

There is another possible explanation for some of this.

Elias Glasson is found in the 1851 Census and recorded as being married but so far I have not been able to find his wife in that Census. Therefore the 'widowed' Ann Glasson who married John Williams in 1843 may not have been a widow at all but rather, possibly, the ex-wife of Elias Glasson.

Also intresting is that I cannot find a death record in the UK for the elder Elias.

CT

[Glazin2018]

CT

Thanks for that 1803 burial.. Eleanor KNEEBONE, wife of George GLASSON is who the burial is as you say.

Well I can't help but think I have read a similar case to this (John Mitchell QUICK).... his son says he is deceased when he gets married and to all intents and purposes his wife gets married around the same time as the younger Elias calling herself a widow..

Surely they thought he was dead.

Lannanta

[Glazin2018]

CT

No, I would not agree with that at all - in fact in many Parishes it was quite common to list all of the males in the family first and then the females, including the mother, below.

Yes but not in Mousehole in 1841 which is really all that matters with this question.  It is unusual for this enumerator to not have the parents first if you look at the whole page and the pages surrounding it.  Also Ann is listed as being "Of Cornwall" which is in conflict with the Ann you found in 1861.  Something does not feel right about this entry CT, she is in the wrong place if she was his wife from Glamorgan.

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

It is unusual for this enumerator to not have the parents first if you look at the whole page and the pages surrounding it.

Point taken - however, at the risk of an accusation of being 'picky' or 'pedantic', there is perhaps another explanation for that as well. By 1841 Elias Crankan had been married twice and his son William was a product of the first marriage. It may be reasonable therefore that as Ann was not his birth mother William be recorded before her.

I also noticed that Ann is recorded as being born 'in County'. A point certainly to be taken into account however it is far from the first time I have seen people recorded this way when in fact they had been born in Wales, Ireland or other parts of the UK.

I think your best approach with this one would be to change your 'direction of attack' and work on the marriage of John Williams and the widowed Ann Glasson nee Wreath to see if you can identify another marriage for her. If another marriage can be identified then the search continues to solve the problem of Elias.
If no such marriage can found for Ann then the possibility that she had been the second wife of Elias comes under consideration again.

And the list of coincidences can't be ignored either.

CT

[Glazin2018]

CT

Yes I agree that the "In County" would have been an easy error to make, especially if Ann was not participating with the Enumerator.

I also agree that although she appears "out of place" that she is the widow Ann ROWE from St John's.  Interesting to note that her age is not rounded and her birth is given as 1808.

I have over the years recorded nearly all the census Glasson entries, marriages and burials, and I cannot see how the Ann who married John WILLIAMS is not the same Ann who married Elias in 1832.

As for John WILLIAMS, his marriage occupation of mariner was a very new occupation as he had been recently discharged from the 2nd Regiment of Foot as of June 1843 at Chatham.  His papers show him as definitely being of Sennen, joining up in 1825 or so, serving in the East Indies, a distinguished soldier, so he is definitely the man you suggest he is.  In 1851 and 1861 he is at Mylor and a Chelsea Pensioner in both census and his wife Ann in 1851 was shown as born in 1807 at Swansea supporting the 1861 recording.

I also conclude that Elias John GLASSON, a widower of Paul, married in Glamorgan to the widow Ann ROWE, was Elias Crankan GLASSON.

Given that the younger Elias GLASSON, married in 1844 to Jane SYMONS, lived very close to his father, and that Ann GLASSON named herself as a widow in 1843, I am also concluding that at that time the senior Elias was missing presumed dead.

I am now going to concentrate my research on not only finding Elias senior after 1851, but also his son William Henry GLASSON as it is possible that the disappearance after 1851 is also linked.

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

Finding Elias and son William would certainly put closure on most of this problem but I would also like to find that first marriage of Ann Rowe.

We probably need someone with a Findmypast subscription to have a look as well because access to non-subscribers is limited.

According to the Williams Marriage Ann was the daughter of a George WREATH and other sources suggest she was born at Swansea sometime between about 1805 and 1808. She married Elias Glasson in 1832 so that first marriage would have to be sometime between about 1821 and 1831. (Allowance made for her being possibly a year or so older and married as young as age 16) I also have an open mind on the spelling and pronunciation of that name Wreath.

I'll take another look and see what I can find but without the FMP subscription I don't hold out much hope.

CT

[zibetha]

Just as an aside, what supporting records back up the name "Crankan" ?? It doesn't sound particularly Cornish to me. Or anything I have ever heard of??? Could it have been wrongly transcribed? Long ago and far away, I majored in languages, and this makes no sense to me.


Just thinking-- Zib