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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 14, 2009 2:33:45 GMT -5
Discussion continued from Welcome New Members. Chris - thought I would throw this little item into the mix just to help confuse matters!  David son of David and Elizabeth Martins bp. 26th December 1791 at Ludgvan. There appear to have been only two children baptised at Ludgvan to parents David and Elizabeth with the other being Elizabeth bp. 23rd April 1797. As far as I am aware Elizabeth most certainly belongs to the Towednack family and married Andrew Berryman at Towednack in 1819. My records currently show three children to David and Elizabeth of Towednack:- Christopher bp. 26th June 1791 Towednack Elizabeth bp. 23rd April 1797 Ludgvan William buried 6th December 1804 Towednack The problem of course is that David at Ludgvan was baptised only six months after Christopher at Towednack.  However David and Elizabeth were married 5th December 1789. So I would suggest that one of the two sons (either David or Christopher) was a late baptism. Maybe Christopher baptised with another child on the way. Or maybe Christopher baptised and then the family remembered that they had not baptised David. Maybe a moot point but it seems to me that David must be part of this family. Of course with two children baptised at Ludgvan it does not help the cause in determining just which Christopher married Susannah Berryman.  CT |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 14, 2009 4:53:23 GMT -5
In an effort to try and correctly identify which Christopher is which I will add a little 'straw clutching'.  The 1841 Census offers what might be a 'possible' clue. Christopher MARTON and Prudence were living at Chytoden and Christopher's age was recorded as 48. Chris MARTINS and Cristiana were living at Ladydowns and Christopher was age 50. This may be an insignificant point BUT it might also be important in the context of this problem. We need to consider the accuracy involved when the ages of each person were given and recorded but the fact that the first Christopher above was age 48 is what I am working on. The two men in question are:- Christopher s/o David and Elizabeth baptised 26th June 1791Christopher s/o Christopher and Mary baptised 30th October 1791The 1841 Census was taken 7th June 1841. The significant point is that Christopher son of Christopher and Mary was NOT YET 50 at the time of the 1841 Census! He would actually have been 49 and not 48 but ....... The husband of Christian was relatively consistent with his age and was 60 in 1851 and 71 in 1861. Based on this it is my opinion that the husband of Christian was the son of David and Elizabeth. CT |
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Post by davidkingmartin on Aug 14, 2009 7:32:10 GMT -5
CT: Thank you for your well-researched response which should help to clarify both my records and those of Chris.
David.
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Post by chrisu on Aug 14, 2009 8:56:48 GMT -5
Ian - can we really rely on 1841 census records for years of birth? Having said that it appears you've reached the same conclusion as I did - I think.
David - thanks for raising one of my ongoing conumdrums/enigmas. At least we know we're related.
Chris
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 14, 2009 9:29:38 GMT -5
Chris - the 1841 Census only required the age of an adult to be rounded down to the nearest five years although it was certainly not compulsory to do so. Thus whilst you would expect to see the ages of all adults recorded as (e.g.) 50 or 45 it is not uncommon to find that a person has recorded his/her age more accurately. Whilst not necessarily 100% accurate we at least have a much better idea of when such people were born. In this case we have one Christopher Martins whose age is recorded as 48 and even though he may have been actually 49 we know that he was not yet 50 at the time of the Census. So I think it fair to deduce that this was the Christopher baptised in October of 1791 which, of course, means that your own Christopher must have been the son of David and Elizabeth. The short answer to your question - Yes when we know the age has not been rounded down which then makes it about as accurate as the following Census years. CT |
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Post by davidkingmartin on Aug 14, 2009 11:49:57 GMT -5
CT/Chris: Another child of David Martin and Elizabeth (Ninnis) would be Martin Martins 9 July 1803, Ludgvan (if I have interpreted the records correctly).
And William, buried 6 Dec.1804, Towednack, appears to have been born the previous day. I am open to correction on this detail but I think I found it in the Towednack on-line records.
David.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 14, 2009 12:05:30 GMT -5
David - the only burial record I have seen for William s/o David and Elizabeth is from the Hoblyn Transcript of Towednack PRs.
There is no record of his age and I have not yet found a baptism for him.
Your other 'possible' child of David and Elizabeth:-
Martin Martins bastard child of Elizth. Martins bp. 10th July 1803
No son of David and Elizabeth but rather the illegitimate son of another Elizabeth.
CT
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Post by chrisu on Aug 15, 2009 7:33:13 GMT -5
David - some information concering Christopher Berriman MARTIN and Elizabeth Ann nee BRAY (married Lelant 1858). You have them in your Ancestry file - they were my GG grandparents. They emigrated (along with 7 children) to New Zealand in October of 1878 aboard the 'Piako'. The voyage was not without incident and is therefore documented in the NZ Archives. See: freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~chrisu/index.htm and follow the link right hadn bottom to "Christopher & Elizabeth MARTIN". Those pages will also provide you with more detail about their descendants. (Their son Christopher was my great grandfather, his daughter Elizabeth Ann Eleanor was my grandmother.) If it's of some help I can send you a PDF file with details. Cheers Chris |
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Post by davidkingmartin on Aug 15, 2009 13:25:38 GMT -5
Thank,Chris, for the additional info., which makes an interesting read.
One of our common antecedents is Grace Uren 1739 St Ives, wife of Richard Martins 1734 Towednack. I have very little data on the Uren side of the family other than her father, Arthur, who was born 20 Aug.1715. Have you explored any further back in that direction? I have data on many URENs. but nothing "fits". There are lots of them.
David.
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Post by rowena on Jan 13, 2011 19:11:59 GMT -5
Hi Folks
I have a Martins query, and presume this is a related family. I would like to clarify her parents and their marriage.
Mary Martins married Thomas Grenfell 18 Nov 1848. Towednack. She is of full age, single, residence Towednack, and her father was David Martins, miner.
The 1861 Census residence: 2 Swoon Billas, Towednack; Grenfell, Thomas, 39, Tin Miner, born Morvah; Mary A., wife, 30, b. Towednack; plus children.
So her birth seems to be about 1831. Is there a baptism for her? And likely parents? I've not found anything that looked remotely likely on the IGI or OPC.
Cheers, Rowena
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 14, 2011 2:31:11 GMT -5
Rowena - I will need to have a closer look at this for a couple of reasons. Firstly Thomas Grenfell was a widower so I need to check details of his first marriage. And secondly because I am not exactly sure of Mary's parents. I still have a problem with the Martin/Martins family of Towednack. David Martins married Mary Ninnis 23rd October 1813 Towednack David Martins married Mary Carbis 12th March 1814 Towednack Can you spot the dilemma?  The girl you are looking for:- Mary Ann d/o David (miner) and Mary MARTIN bp. 18th January 1829 Towednack Unless there is another Mary Ann baptised Non-conformist I think you will find this is the wife of Thomas Grenfell. Big problem is whether her mother was Mary Carbis or Mary Ninnis?  CT |
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Post by rowena on Jan 14, 2011 7:40:16 GMT -5
Hi CT
That's a knotty one. A bit like the 3 William Pascoes who married Ann's in the 1700's in Sithney, all within a couple of years of one another, and then proceeded to have children with identical names 6 months apart....don't you just love that.
At the very least, I now have a baptism I didn't have before.
Thank you for that, Rowena
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Post by rowena on Jan 14, 2011 7:45:54 GMT -5
Oops, pressed the button too quickly.
Mary Ann Martins and Thomas Grenfell had a daughter Emily born 1851. I've not found a baptism for her. Would you be able to check this. (There were 2 Emily Grenfell births registered for Penzance in 1851)
Cheers, Rowena
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 14, 2011 8:00:45 GMT -5
Hi Rowena - if Emily was baptised at Towednack then I won't be able to find her. I can locate information for Towednack up until 1837 for baptisms and Burials and for Marriages I can go right through past 1900. The only other baptisms and burials that are readily available can be found on the OPC site but they don't start until about the 1860s. BTW - I am finally getting somewhere with the two families of David and Mary Martin(s).  I have compiled a small spreadsheet of the baptisms and then worked from the 1841 and 1851 Census to help separate the two families. At the moment I am working on the later marriages to identify children of each family who married. I believe I have enough information now to say that the mother of Mary Ann Martins was Mary CARBIS. More work to do before I can be sure I have all children for the two families correctly identified but I believe I am now very close. Next problem will be to identify Mary Ann's father. Sometime over the weekend I hope to be able to explain the make-up of each family which will hopefully help others resolve a few problems.  CT |
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Post by rowena on Jan 16, 2011 3:05:03 GMT -5
Fabulous CT,
I'm looking foward to seeing what you come up with. And, for me at this end, I've accidentally come across a descendant, so looking forward to finding out what they may know.
Cheers, Rowena
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