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Post by tonymitch on Feb 27, 2011 16:03:05 GMT -5
Hi there Doug,
Trying to sort out the Williams family reminds me of the story of the theology student who, when asked to write an essay on the Holy Trinity started with, "What I understand about the Holy Trinity isn't clearly understood." Same with me and the Williams's!
As CT pointed out a couple of years ago it's a very complex/complicated/hair-tearing-out crowd. I didn't know that Philip (1852) had died in Nevadaville. His half sister Elizabeth my2x grandmother's children also went to Nevadaville but ended up in S.Dakota. They are all mentioned in a book which if memory serves me correctly is entitled "The Cornish Miner in America" by Arthur C Todd. I haven't looked up the Williams's, but will certainly do so next time I'm in the library. I'll start hunting what I have in my data base and also continue this conversation in the personal messages section, as I have a few bits of rumour/tittle-tattle to sort out before I go 'public'.
Posthumous Baptism is still theologically a big 'no-no', unless you are are a follower of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latterday Saints otherwise known as Mormons, despite having found written evidence to the contrary in the County Records Office.
I can enter into a deep theological discussion if you wish also in PMs but I think it might bore the pants off people on this general site.
Tony M
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 17:44:15 GMT -5
James Williams died on a train, 4 April 1914 at Baronorrisher, Warsaw. He was a Missionary to China. His wife's name was Elizabeth, I believe they called her Nanny. (Notes my father took when talking to Nanny Angwin Walker, (James grand niece and first cousin to Annie Jane Furze - my grandmother) in 1954). They grew up together in St. Just, and migrated to the U.S. together in the 1890's. All the families first settled in Nevadaville, Colorado.
Elizabeth Jane Williams, daughter of John Williams and Elizabeth Bosence, Married William Furze, son of Uter Furze and Mary Tonkin.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 17:53:48 GMT -5
More confusion with the Williams connection --- John Furze (1766) married Constance Williams, daughter of Uter Williams and Rebecca Rowe. Son Uter (1803) married Mary Tonkin. Son William (1838) married Elizabeth Jane Williams.
Although I do not have facts to support it, I believe Constance and Elizabeth are from the same family tree.
Daughter of Wm & Lizzy, Margaret Ann, married James Mitchell - son of James Mitchell and Mary Oats (Tony's family) Son of Wm & Lizzy, Matthew, married Annie Jane Angwin - Son Philip was my father.
Also, Annie Eddy who married James Angwin, remarried John Trudgeon, after great grandpa James died in Nevadaville in 1894. The story is they knew each other while children in St. Just.
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Post by zibetha on Feb 28, 2011 17:25:06 GMT -5
James Williams, died March 28, 1914, Baranowicze, Minsk, Russia. Was a naturalized US citizen, residence: Denver, Colorado.
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Post by tonymitch on Mar 3, 2011 4:45:14 GMT -5
Zibetha has worked the miracle. I could find no reference to this mysterious James Williams despite asking Polish friends to help with research and also help from several 'cousins' on this site. James Williams was born 11 March 1872 in the Penzance District and died on 28th March 1814 at Baranowicze in the dining coach of a train of an aneurism of the Aorta. He was traveling on his own from Holkol Chosen Korea. He is buried in the Roman Catholic Cemetery in Baranowicze. Baranowicze was in 1914 in Russia, (as was Warsaw) but is now in Belarus. It also has several names (Polish, Belarus and Russian) but is listed on present day map as Baranavichy and is situated to the south west of Minsk. James emigrated from Liverpool to the USA in 1883 aboard the Alaska and seems to have lived in Central City Gilpin County Colorado where he 'followed the occupation of mining'. He left the USA on 6th May 1911 to travel to Korea and was on his way back when he died. Now, my problem is..."Who is he?"....He seems to be related to the Williams family involved in the Angwin/Eddy entanglement referred to recently by C.T. and 'Cousin Jack', or else the Williams crowd of Furze/Williams/Green/Rowe/Curnow relationship from Towednack. I can find no reference to him apart from the FreeBMD recording of a James Williams or a James Richard Williams born in the June quarter 1872 in the Penzance District. I can find no reference to baptism in the appropriate time space within the appropriate geographical location. Efforts to find him within a family emigrating to the USA in 'Ancestors on board' fail because the records start after he arrived in the USA. The only additional information I have are scraps from a notebook and are a verbal response from a very elderly lady....." James Williams great uncle died on train in April 4 1914 at Baronorrisher Warsaw Russia. Was missionary to China"... "Nanny - Elizabeth - Williams" ... "John Williams great great grandfather on maternal side."... "James Angwin son of Charles & Nanny Williams Angwin ... Charles Angwin great grandfather". Can anyone help?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 3, 2011 8:16:04 GMT -5
Well ol' mate! let's see what you think about this fella! James Williams baptised 19th March 1873 Pendeen son of John Williams (retired Innkeeper) and Nancy of Pendeen Birth probably registered June Qtr 1872 Penzance R.D. as he was age 9 in the 1881 Census at Boscaswell. Emigrated, seemingly unaccompanied, at the age of 11 from Liverpool to New York arriving 22nd September 1884 aboard the 'Alaska'. Not found in the UK Census after 1881. Parents:- John Williams, hatter of Boscaswell, son of Thomas Williams, miner and Nancy Ellis of Boscswell age 23, daughter of Peter Ellis who married at St Just 4th December 1849. John son of Thomas and Jane (nee Warren) Williams of Boscaswell baptised 11th May 1818 St Just Nancy daughter of Peter and Loveday (nee Hill) Ellis of Letcha baptised 16th March 1828 St Just I am not sure yet about the other connections you mentioned but I think that might give you a little bit to think about. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 3, 2011 8:32:11 GMT -5
Tony - this cannot be right as Charles Angwin's wife was Nanny ROWE daughter of Richard Rowe and Ann Roberts.
CT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2011 11:03:38 GMT -5
Hummmm Charles married Nanny Rowe 20 Jan 1847. Their son James is the great grandfather of tonymitch & cousinjack. Now comes the question why did the notes have reference to James Williams great Uncle ...... was he a great uncle to Nanny (Nancy) Rowe? And who is John Rowe ... the great great grandfather of Nanny? I don't have much info on Richard or Ann other than they are the parents of Nanny.
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Post by tonymitch on Mar 4, 2011 11:44:42 GMT -5
In the interests of veracity James Angwin isn't my g-g-father, He's certainly Cousin Jack's. James Angwin's daughter married my grandmother's brother....correct generation but incorrect relationship.
"AND NOW FOR SOMETHING DIFFERENT".....Back to James Williams who was an alleged missionary in China.
1. On his passport application (thanks Zibetha) it states he was a miner. 2. He is leaving Holkol in Korea to return to the USA.
Hol Kol is a large gold and copper mine 75 km S.E. of Pyongyang in North Korea. Might have been a religious fellow, possibly a lay preacher, but I'll bet 5,000 North Korean wons to one smell of a genuine Cornish Pasty that he was a miner.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2011 16:54:33 GMT -5
OOPS, I was tired ... James Angwin married Annie Eddy, my g-grandparents. Annie Angwin married Matthew Furze, bro. of Margaret - tonymitch's grandmother.
But I think we may have William's on both sides of the tree. I am going with the Missionary, due to other information I have from family stories.
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Post by zibetha on Mar 4, 2012 0:34:31 GMT -5
I’d like to take a stab at identifying “our” James Williams. I think there was quite a grain of truth in the information from Nanny Angwin, but we also have to consider the recipient of the information. I think she was identifying people in terms of their relationship to him -- Cousin Jack’s father, I believe, took the notes? -- rather than to herself, i.e., “your great-uncle…”
I think CT has identified the right family. James JOHN Williams, the hatter and later retired innkeeper, married Nancy Ellis, and I think she, Nancy Ellis Williams, is the woman referred to as "Nanny Elizabeth Williams." In 1871, James JOHN and Nancy’s oldest child on the census was daughter Jane. I think this Jane was the woman who married John Angwin, son of Charles Angwin and Nanny Rowe. In 1881, Jane was head of her own household (husband “miner living abroad”) with children: John C(harles), Jane W(illiams), and Nanny Angwin. In 1885, she can be found on the Colorado state census in Gilpin with her husband and the same three children.
Then take a look at her parents’ household in 1881. Their youngest son is a boy, James Williams, age 9 (born about 1872, thus not appearing on the 1871 census.) I think this is “our” James-- the older children match with the names in 1871. I don’t find him on any later English censuses, either.
We have his birthdate and the immigration information from his passport with naturalization details, and he also appeared in the 1885 Colorado state census as a 13 year-old miner, boarding in Gilpin. I have yet to find the passenger list for the Alaska, so I don’t know if he and Jane traveled together or not.
I think James married a woman named Chrissy; not sure if there is a 2nd marriage also.
Jane (Williams) & John Angwin had another son, James, b: 1887 in Colorado who eventually moves to Los Angeles, California. He and his wife, Lillie, have a son James W. Angwin b:1917. (Shall we guess what the “W” probably stood for?) After John Angwin’s death, Jane married a John Curnow and they had a son, John, born about 1891 in Colorado.
I knew I needed a James Williams who was one of the youngest children in his family because he was not much older than his niece, Nanny Angwin. Ellis vs. Elizabeth and Nancy vs. Nanny would be a very easy (and small) listening or note-taking errors to make. If the Russia part panned out, why wouldn’t the rest of Nanny’s information?
P.S. I have no idea if or how these Williams relate to the other Williams lines in this thread!!! But it wouldn’t surprise me if they do.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 4, 2012 19:35:12 GMT -5
Nice thinking but unfortunately no cigar. St John's Church, Pendeen 17th October 1872 by Banns John Angwin, 24, bachelor, miner of Carnyorth, son of Charles Angwin, miner Jane Williams, 23, spinster of Pendeen, daughter of John Williams, householder Witnesses:- John Williams, T. Bennetts She was daughter of John and not James Williams and I think it likely that the John Williams who witnessed the marriage was her father. CT
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Post by zibetha on Mar 4, 2012 23:51:20 GMT -5
I agree completely with the information in your last post--- my notes were fine, my typing was incorrect. Have struck through and amended the error in message.
I meant John Williams as husband of Nancy Ellis and the father of Jane and James (as well as of Sibella -- which is what confirmed for me that I was looking at the same family in 1871 and 1881.)
John Williams son of Thomas Williams, Innkeeper, and Jane (Warren). He was one of their younger children.
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Post by zibetha on Mar 5, 2012 1:43:10 GMT -5
Additional information from the Census -- the ages track, so I have omitted them to keep this on the shorter side:
In Pendeen, St. Just :
1841 Boscaswell Row Thomas Williams (Innkeeper) and wife Jane, with sons: Thomas (Farmer), James (Grocer & draper), John (Hatter)
1851 Boscaswell Row Thomas Williams (Farmer, innkeeper & miller) and wife, Jane; sons Thomas and James (grocer & draper)
NOTE: OPC record for death of 72 year-old Thomas Williams of Boscaswell on April 8, 1853
1861 Boscaswell Row James Williams (draper, groser & general dealer) head of household that includes his widowed mother, Jane, and his older sister, Mary.
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1851 Boscaswell Row John Williams (hatter) and wife, Nancey, plus daughter, Jane.
1861 Boscaswell John Williams (Retired landlord-landowner) and wife, Jane Children: Jane, William, Nancy and Thomas Bibbs.
1871 Boscaswell Square John Williams (hatter) & wife, Nancy; children: Jane, William, Nancy, Sibella, Thomas and Mary (not listed in correct age order.)
1881 North Inn Square John Williams (Innkeeper) and wife, Nancy ; children: Sibella, James, and Margaret Mary. James and Margaret Mary were both born after the previous census.
NOTE: 1886 BMD death record for John Williams.
1891 Trewellard, St. Just, Head of Lane Nancy Williams, head of household (widow living on her own means) plus daughter, Margaret M.
1901 St. Ives, Penzance, Western Division Nancy Williams (born Pendeen), head of household (lodging Ho. Keeper - own means) with daughters Mary and Margaret M.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 5, 2012 2:53:11 GMT -5
AHA! - the errant fingers on the keyboard trick! ;D And now I agree with you completely! And I also have something to support your findings. One of the witnesses to the marriage of John Angwin and Jane Williams was a John Williams and we know from the marriage record that Jane's father was John Williams. I have copies of this marriage record and also of the marriage record for John Williams and Nancy Ellis and I can now tell you that the John Williams who married Nancy Ellis was the same John Williams who witnessed the marriage of Jane to John Angwin! Next is the young James Williams for whom I have:- James son of John (Householder) and Nancy Williams of Pendeen baptised 19th March 1873 at Pendeen Arrived New York September 22nd, 1884 aboard the 'Alaska' James Williams age 11 - passenger 374 - Child There is no indication he was travelling with anyone else And the children of John and Jane Angwin all baptised St Just Wesleyan Circuit, St Just John Charles Angwin bp. 15th July 1874 (born 20th May 1874) - residence Trewellard Jane Williams Angwin bp. 4th October 1876 (born 7th July 1876) - residence Carnyorth, St Just Nanny Angwin bp. 8th May 1878 (born 24th March 1878 - residence Trewellard CT
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