Talking about 'Williams'....has anyone any record of a James Williams dob not known, but possibly 1840/1850? Related to the Williams/Furze crowd of Sancreed/St Just....Sorry to be so vague, but this is following some information given to me
My father left many notes about the family one states a James Williams died on a train, April 4, 1914 at Baronorrisher Warsaw Russia. His brother Charles was my great-great grandfather ..
OK, so the geography isn't so good and I can't find any record of 'Baronorisher' or similar sounding name. I've had a fair old search in the usual places (found out why I couldn't find the death age of John Williams by the way CT) but can find nothing of note.
James was reported to be Missionary in China and to be on his way home when he died. What I find interesting is the definate date given for his death which makes me think there is some valididty in this story.
Last Edit: Jul 18, 2009 9:56:05 GMT -5 by tonymitch
Hi Tony Do you think it could have been BRONISZE (suburb of Warsaw, just off train line - see google maps) try say that with a St Just accent and you might get near ;D your note sounds a bit like it might have come from an obit. or tomb inscription.
There is a James Toy Williams mentioned in a book about Christianity in China could this be the same man or just a red herring?
Red herring - he was born 1882 in Alabama USA
Last Edit: Jul 18, 2009 12:17:07 GMT -5 by londoner
Hi-hi-hi Londoner.....you might have something there. Never thought of the obit/tombstone bit...but my geographically challenged information had its origins in the good old US of A so how's about James being a US citizen? Never thoought of that either, but I'm afraid James Toy Williams seems to have published a book in the 1920's, so it is a bit 'fishy'.
However.....BRONISZE....spot on... ;D never mind the St Just accent, just try a Polish one....it's pronounced 'Bronis-sher' as close to 'Baronorisher' as Przybyszow is to 'Unpronouncable' (where my wife incidentally has relatives...and I drove there without the aid of a Tom Tom) There was me looking for obscure places like Brzozowo. Now to try and tap up my Polish contacts and see if they can help with records of is death.
Hmmmm, wonder if he was American?
Last Edit: Jul 18, 2009 19:48:44 GMT -5 by tonymitch
Bit of a job I've given myself here...... Could some kind soul please confirm the following.....
Philip Williams married Margaret Walish 1 Jan 1806 at St Just and they had four children Philip 3 Jan 1813; Thomas 26 March 1815; John 18 May 1817 (died Dec same year) and John 3 Dec 1819. All baptised at Sancreed
John (1819) married 2x and had 3 biological children John (1840 Towednack) Elizabeth (1843 Zennor) and Margaret (1845 Towednack)
Elizabeth was my great grandmother and also the great grandmother of my James Williams informant. Therefore, our great great grandfather would be John (1819) not the Charles whom I cannot find. Also 'Missionary' James is unlikely to be the brother of John if he died in 1914. I would think he is at least one generation closer to me.
I can't find any more children for John 1819 either. Best I can come up with is James s/o John and Anne 7 July 1868 Towednack. Right parish (Towednack/Zennor) but wrong mother!
Incidentally, in my searches I have found on the 1851 census in Illogan a Toy family living next door to a Williams crowd.....anything to do with the missionary James Toy Williams I ask myself. Also had a bit if fun Googleing 'James Toy Williams Alabama'. Kept getting offered web sites about sex toys in that good state. ;D Tony M
Last Edit: Jul 19, 2009 17:50:27 GMT -5 by tonymitch
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 20, 2009 14:51:49 GMT -5
You do seem to have gotten yourself into a mess don't you!
Okay - let's see if we can sort some of it out.
Philip and Margaret Williams had a few more children:-
William bp. 31st October 1808 St Just Ann bp. 26th August 1810 St Just Richard bp. 5th September 1823 bu. 7th September 1823 Sancreed Richard bp. 15th July 1825 Sancreed Margaret bp. 29th July 1830 bu. 10th May 1831 Sancreed
(I have omitted the already known children)
Now for your John!
As you say he was married twice.
John Williams married Elizabeth Curnow 23rd March 1840 at Towednack
Elizabeth was bp. 19th March 1820 d/o Thomas Curnow (sexton) and Phillis (nee Berryman)
I have not yet found a burial for Elizabeth.
Three children as you have mentioned although I am also unable, as yet, to find baptisms for them.
This begins to get quite complicated so I hope you can follow it.
John's second marriage was at Sancreed:-
5 May 1849 by Banns John Williams full age widower Miner of Tregerras [Mark] (Father: Philip Williams, Miner) Elizabeth Green full age of Tregerras [Mark] (Father: Benjamin Rowe, Miner) Witnesses: John Toman, John Ladner
John had one child from this marriage:-
Philip s/o John and Elizabeth Williams of Lower Tregerras bp. 24th August 1852 at Sancreed
Now - as you will notice Elizabeth was the daughter of Benjamin Rowe and had obviously been previously married.
She was baptised at Sancreed 19th March 1815 d/o Benjamin and Joanna Rowe
The only possible marriage I have found is Benjamin ROWE married Joan NICHOLAS at Sancreed in 1803.
I am unable to find any children from this marriage prior to Elizabeth in 1815.
But there are four children baptised after Elizabeth, including Michael Nicholas Rowe, up until 1824 at Sancreed.
I suspect that this marriage was probably 1813 and not 1803 - but it is only a suspicion.
Elizabeth's first marriage at Sancreed:-
23 Dec 1841 by Banns William Green 35 Miner of Madron [Mark] (Father: Cornelius Green, Miller) Elizabeth Rowe 27 of Tregeras [Mark] (Father: Benjamin Rowe, Miner) Witnesses: Samuel Ivey, John Grenfell
Two children to this marriage:-
Johannah d/o William and Elizabeth Green of Lower Tregerras bp. 15th May 1842 Sancreed Elizabeth Ann d/o William and Elizabeth Green of Bosullow bp. 15th March 1846 Madron
William Green of Bosullow age 42 buried 2nd June 1847 at Madron
(I have more on the family of Cornelius Green if you would like it.)
The complications are not over yet!
Prior to her marriage to William Green it appears Elizabeth was a little adventurous and had a child out of wedlock. ;D
Jemima d/o Elizabeth Rowe of Poor House bp. 11th April 1837 at Sancreed
1851 Census Lower Tregerrast, Sancreed
John WILLIAMS, head, mar., 31, tin miner, Sancreed Elizabeth do., wife, mar., 37, miner's wife, Sancreed JEMIMA do., daur., unm., 14, Sancreed John do., son, 11, Towednack Johanna do., daur., 9, Sancreed Elizabeth do., daur., 8, Zennor Margaret do., daur., 6, Towednack Elizabeth GREEN, daughter-in-law, 5, Madron
Notice that Jemima (born Rowe) and Johanna (born Green) are labelled as 'daughters' yet Elizabeth Green is a 'daughter-in-law' even though she was the sister of Johanna!
1861 Census Lower Tregerest, Sancreed
Elizabeth WILLIAMS, head, mar., 47, miner's wife, Sancreed Philip do., son, 9, scholar, Sancreed Joana do., daur., unm., 19, tin dresser, Sancreed Elizabeth do., daur., unm., 15, tin dresser, Sancreed John do., son-in-law, unm., 20, tin miner, Towednack Margaret do., daughter-in-law, unm., 16, tin miner, Towednack John TRUDGEN, grandson, 3 months, Towednack Peter TRUDGEN, boarder, unm., 21, tin miner, Madron
Peter TRUDGEN married Johanna GREEN 1st June 1861 at Sancreed
John and Gregory sons of Peter and Johanna TRUDGEN of Tregerras were baptised 12th October 1862 at Sancreed.
So Johanna also liked to 'play' and had her first child born only 3 months prior to the 1861 Census.
She married the 'boarder' just a couple of months after that same Census.
Now that I have confused you totally - could you please tell me about Elizabeth with details of her marriage etc.
I am interested in finding out a little more about this family.
BTW Peter James TRUDGEN was baptised 24th March 1839 at Madron s/o Gregory and Cordelia TRUDGEN of Bosullow.
I cannot find a marriage for Gregory and Cordelia.
CT....you never cease to amaze me. I had a fair bit on the John Williams/Elizabeth/Elizabeth trinity but not to the depth which you have managed to squeeze out.
Elizabeth....I assume you mean Elizabeth b1843 Zennor.
We have corresponded before about her.
She married William Furze 7 April 1860 at Sancreed and was the Elizabeth Furze who sailed to South Africa in 1903 "To nurse the soldiers in the Boer War" which had ended a couple of years before.
I too have been unable to find her baptism date but if one calculates her birth date from other sources one has quite a surprise.
From the 1851 census she was born 1843, her marriage dates her birth as 1841 whilst the ships manifest dates it as 1844. but now the 1861 census has her birth as 1846. She died at Atherton Lancashire in 1919 aged 76 which puts her birth date as 1843.
If we assume her birth date to be 1843, this means she was married at the age of 15/16.....Hang on... ...you have just given me the 1861 Census stating she was at home with Daddy and Mummy aged 15....I already have her married 12 months before.
Methinks there is a plot here....and that you already knew about the 1861 census and the 1860 marriage!!! Having married her off in 1860, I didn't think to look at the 1861 census.
Her first child Elizabeth was born in 1860....that means......Hallelujah....before the census. Where was this child at the time of the census? Must look at the Furze household....hang on.....it's illegal to give false statements at a census....how long is the statute of limitations...will the police be after me now???
Just rechecked the OPC for Sancreed.......ID 87789 Marriage by Banns 07 April 1860 William Furze aged 22 Miner of Chapel Court father Uter Furze miner to Elizabeth Jane Williams aged 19 of Tregerras father John Williams miner. Witnesses William Trembath and John Toman.
I started off looking for a supposed missionary who is alleged to have died on a train in Poland who has a brother I cannot find (the only Charlie Williams I know of was a Yorkshire comedian) and end up being proven that I am related to a family who falsify census returns as a spectator sport....because everyone must have known about the wedding.
CT...how dare you do this to me.. ..is because we are at last hammering you at cricket??
Last Edit: Jul 20, 2009 18:35:05 GMT -5 by tonymitch
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 20, 2009 20:01:50 GMT -5
Tony - I had a bit of an idea this might happen!
If you read the information again - carefully! - you should be able to notice the anomaly but to ease the burden I will explain what I think has happened.
If you take another look at the information from the 1851 Census you will note in the household:-
Elizabeth WILLIAMS, daur., 8, Zennor Elizabeth GREEN, daughter-in-law, 5, Madron
Now have another look at 1861 and remember that John is not at home:-
Elizabeth WILLIAMS, daur, unm., 15, tin dresser, Sancreed
In the latter case Elizabeth Williams (mother) is head of household with John being away somewhere.
Elizabeth names her own two children first and labels them as daughters.
She then names the children of John from his previous marriage and labels them as step-children.
The main difference here is that in 1851 Elizabeth's birthplace is Madron whilst in 1861 it is Sancreed - a rather minor detail.
So there is no real falsification of the Census at all! ;D
Perhaps the most confusing part is the fact that Elizabeth GREEN became Elizabeth WILLIAMS in 1861.
Remember that after the 1851 Census information I made comment about the fact that Jemima ROWE (illegitimate daughter of Elizabeth) and Johanna GREEN (daughter from Elizabeth's first marriage) appeared in this Census as WILLIAMS yet younger daughter Elizabeth was recorded as GREEN.
You would appear therefore to be safe and it was Elizabeth born Zennor about 1842 and daughter from John Williams' first marriage who married Mr Furze in 1860.
And yes, I do now vaguely remember trying to deal with the Furze information quite some time ago. In fact I think I saw a folder containing some information about that somewhere just recently.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 21, 2009 6:08:30 GMT -5
Some say they have a mind of their own!
I guess it can be difficult depending on the program you use but I think even with the best of them there would be problems - particularly when trying to display the data for others to understand.
It is a messy little family especially with the arbitrary use of surnames.
And it was made even worse in this case where there was a daughter Elizabeth from each side who ended up becoming step-sisters.
But at least, I hope, the situation is clarified.
Here is a BTW for you - I have shown you that John and his second wife had a son named Philip but if you ever decide that it might be nice to get hold of his Birth Certificate then you will need to be aware that he is indexed as Philip PURSE!
I have now updated all of the information into my database as far as the children of William and Elizabeth Furze.
Now I also came across another little problem.
William stated that his father was UTER Furse when he married but you will find the baptism with the father recorded as PETER.
I have the marriage as Uter Furze and Mary Tonkin m. 12th October 1824 at Paul but so far have only William recorded as a child so will try and rectify that.
But this has become somewhat far removed from your original query!
So I guess I need to reread the information and then see if James and/or Charles can be found.
If there is anything else at all that you might have in the way of information, heresay or clues then please let me know and I will see what I can do.
Furze crowd..... Uter (son of Uter) b 1826 Paul d 1829 John b 1826 Sancreed Mary b 1830 Matthew b 1834 Sancreed Susan b 1836 Sancreed Rebecca b Abt1837 William b 1839 Sancreed Elizabeth Emma b 15 May 1842 Sancreed