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Post by Glazin2018 on Apr 18, 2022 5:35:10 GMT -5
CT
Well done. I knew it was something like that - nothing else made any sense to me - although Wilmot does not make it to the 1880 census - well with husband John anyway!!! So tell me this.. do you think there was a reason why the parents ages were both lowered for separate voyages, do you think that they travelled separately to suggest they were not the parents of their fellow passengers? Was there an age limit of assisted immigrants into the USA?
Lannanta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 18, 2022 5:39:02 GMT -5
And perhaps a little more BINGO! BINGO! BINGO! Having (I believe) found Wilmot and Catherine arriving in the US I decided to have another crack at finding a death record for Wilmot. New Jersey seemed the logical place to start and after a few minutes locating the appropriate index I made a search for a death for anyone named 'Wilmot' between the years of 1873 (date of arrival) and 1885 when John Penberthy died and was recorded as being widowed. The result:- New Jersey Deaths and Burials, 1720-1988 Name - Wilmot VANBUTHA Sex - male Age - 53 Death Date - 18th February 1877 Death Place - Mine Hill, Morris County, New Jersey Birth Year (estimated) - 1824 Birthplace - England Marital Status - married Occupation - miner There are obviously details in this that suggest this is not Wilmot Penberthy most notably the fact this person is supposed to have been MALE! (But then Wilmot was also labelled as 'male' and 'labourer' on the passenger list!!) The surname is also 'odd' but, if a little thought is put into it, certainly within the bounds of 'written as heard' or 'transcribed as read' (i.e. best possible interpretation of the handwriting!). (Remember that this is a transcription from the original which I have not seen.) VANBUTHA - in the 1880 Census the family name is written by the Enumerator as PEMBERTHA and I have seen multitudes of handwriting examples where a captial 'P' looks very, very much like a captial 'V'. England is certainly 'multicultural' these days and 'foreign' names have turned up in records for centuries but this is not a surname I have ever encountered and especially not in the UK. MINE HILL - Mine Hill Township is less than 2 miles from Randolph where the Penberthy family was living in 1880. Except for being labelled as 'male' and, perhaps, 'miner' every detail of this record matches what we know of Wilmot Thomas Penberthy nee Quick. Wilmot was certainly born in England (specifically Cornwall) and she was baptised at Towednack 18th July 1824. I would like to get a look at the original record just to see how accurate/inaccurate the transcription is but I am 'quietly confident' that this is what we have been searching for. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 18, 2022 5:45:44 GMT -5
Good reward for a lot of hard work by us all I think! But no, I have no answers at the moment for your questions. Although one thought that did cross my mind was that perhaps they were among the last passengers to sign up for the trip and there simply was not enough room. I don't know whether there were any age requirements or indeed what other restrictions might have been placed on emigrants but it is certainly an intriguing circumstance. Almost as intriguing as why Wilmot was recorded as 'male' and 'labourer'!! (And you will revisit that particular point in my most recent post!!)
CT
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Post by zibetha on Apr 18, 2022 22:31:55 GMT -5
Once again, CT, you have proven deserving of your moniker.
Back to you, Lannanta, I am not aware of any age restrictions at the time and know of no assisted passenger arrangements with the US. Were there such programs, I would expect them to have been between England and Canada. Looking at my own family, when my 3x great-grandparents, Joseph/Josiah and Amelia (Williams) Sampson brought the rest of the family over (some sons came a bit earlier) Joseph's age was rounded down about 5 years which would have put him under 50, but the rest were mostly correct. They brought 8 children (I think that to actually have been 7 and one illegitimate grandson) to the US in 1875. The children were listed in descending age order with the 3rd having an incorrect age -- 26 vs 16.
I would suspect something like $ or family circumstances caused the father to go to the US first with eldest (step)daughter to help with the younger children and Catherine to follow with his wife. Finances, illness? I suspect the name Wilmot was confused with William.
zib
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 19, 2022 0:16:22 GMT -5
Thankyou Zib ..................... pure DOGGEDNESS you think? We still need to track down an exact date and place of death for Charles Wills but I think the 1851-1923 memorial at Ishpeming is certainly for him. And then there are a few of Wilmot Quick's siblings to be tracekd ..... perhaps they can wait for another day. CT
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Post by zibetha on Apr 19, 2022 0:37:49 GMT -5
Doggedness (is that a word?) determination and Terriers taxes --- granted. Standing up for the ladies, we still need to find Catherine's death and burial as well. A Canada connection is possible but I think unlikely. Next border to the North of me and mine in Michigan and Minnesota.
Zib
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 19, 2022 5:38:02 GMT -5
Yep! doggedness [ˈdɒɡɪdnəs] DEFINITION noun form of dogged dogged [ˈdɒɡɪd] ADJECTIVE having or showing tenacity and grim persistence. "success required dogged determination" synonyms: tenacious · determined · resolute · resolved · purposeful · persistent · [more] And yes, we do still need to find Catherine who appears to have died between 1900 and 1908. Although I guess we should not discount divorce either. An Ancestry Family Tree with no source provided offered late 1913 at Calumet as a death date for Charles Wills. (Details I think are in an earlier post) But I have certainly not been able to verify that information with any of the Michigan records which are actually quite good for the time. I return therefore to the Findagrave entry which shows a memorial plaque in Ishpeming Cemetery for Charles Wills brother 1851-1923. I think that plaque was provided by his sister and brother who I have confirmed were living in Ishpeming at the time so I think 1923 is the more correct of the dates we have. If we can find a death, somewhere, for Charles Wills in 1923 then there is a reasonable chance it might lead us to finding Catherine. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 19, 2022 6:02:22 GMT -5
Just to clarify a point about potential death dates for Catherine Quick (Penberthy) Wills - the marriage record for Charles Wills and Lilly Barkell in 1908 shows that both Charles and Lilly had been 'previously married once'. It does not indicate whether either party was widowed or divorced.
It is for that reason I have left open the possibility that Catherine may have lived beyond 1908 although I have also searched for her in 1910 and 1920 with no success.
CT
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Post by zibetha on Apr 20, 2022 12:06:26 GMT -5
Agreed, but with Lilly as the informant on Thomas Wills' death certificate, I think Catherine was no longer alive. There are photos on Ancestry of Charles' brother? Henry Wills that are captioned "Captain Harry"-- so I think we should consider Canada, too. A mine agent might have gotten his brother a job.
Zib
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 20, 2022 12:37:15 GMT -5
I think Charles Wills was most likely a widower when he remarried as well BUT if divorce were involved and the son remained with his father then it is not so unusual for Olivia/Lillie to have been the informant at her stepson's death.
A little Canadian work to be done!
CT
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Post by zibetha on Apr 20, 2022 19:48:50 GMT -5
Yes, Catherine cannot just disappear in the known time frame. I do have a great grandmother smuggled into the USA under her husband's first wife's name. So... I never say never.
Z
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Post by Glazin2018 on Apr 20, 2022 23:45:59 GMT -5
CT and Zib
I am pretty happy with the outcome and I think I have enough info now to close off this part of the QUICK family for me.
I always thought the ages for Catherine etc in the 1880 census would be good and they of course showed Charles to be hatched around 1848. Interesting that Thomas was aged 5 in that census, and 35 in 1910 so I am of the opinion he was an 1875 baby. But whether true or not does not really change things much.
I enjoyed the hunt thank you.
Lannanta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 21, 2022 6:47:10 GMT -5
Nothing like a good 'hunt' especially when the 'prey' ,as in this case, is so chameleon-like. Even more satisfying when a fairly high degree of success is achieved. I'd still like to track down the deaths/burials of Charles Wills and Catherine if possible but it may take a little more patience. Re the birth of Charles Thomas Wills and his age - I've looked at the 1880 Census entry several times and it does definitely 'look like' a 5 in the age column. But subsequent Census entries indicate he was born about 1877 and so should have been age 3 in 1880. But according to the information on his death record he was born 12th January 1878. As for his father Charles - I did track him down and he was baptised at Helston, Cornwall, 2nd April 1849 son of Thomas (a tailor) and Ann (nee Morcom) Wills of Church St Helston. His birth was registered in the March Quarter of 1849. CT
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Post by Glazin2018 on Apr 21, 2022 15:33:06 GMT -5
CT
Not that it is important but I am sure the birth for Thomas Wills was 1875. The main reason is the accuracy of the information in the 1880 census by the WILLS family. Charles at aged 32 and Catherine at 25 is within one year of being spot on and therefore I take Thomas being 5 as more than likely within the same margin of error. Subsequent census actually do not support 1878 for Thomas, in 1910 census (4 years before his death) his age is given as 35 which supports the 1880 census. If I remember correctly, the birth year for Thomas on his death certificate was not actually entered, only the day and month, and then his age was given by the informant - given that Thomas died suddenly in the mine, he would not have had any input into that data input. Finally the 1900 census is woefully inaccurate, for example, father Charles Wills age given as 39 years making for a birth year of 1860. Thomas and family also appear in the 1885 New Jersey US census but the ages are all rounded - e.g. Thomas was between 5 and 20 years in 1885.
As for Charles WILLS, he died on the 22nd August 1923 and was buried at Ishpeming on the 26th August 1923, beside his name on the cemetery card is the name of the funeral director for him - M. A. Erlenbaun. Henry also appears on the cemetery card, but wife Susan does not. I received this information from the Ishpeming County Council. They suggest that only Susan's burial in that cemetery could be doubtful.
I agree with you regarding the birth/baptism of the Wills family at Helston, and in particular Charles Wills in March 1849.
I did not see in my research that the son of Charles and Catherine was named anything other than Thomas, I assumed named after his paternal grandfather.
Lannanta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 21, 2022 16:56:16 GMT -5
I am not sure why I fixed the son's name as 'Charles Thomas' when it appears the only source being that it appears this way in the Ancestry Tree I had found. Having rechecked all Official records I can find I have now altered that to read 'Thomas Wills'. Now, in 1880 the age does appear to be 5 although the top horizontal stroke is detached and in 1910 he appears to be 35. However, in the 1900 Census Thomas is recorded as being age 22 and on his death certificate we have a birth date of 'January 12' and age '36 years 7 months 6 days'. So in fact we are '2 and 2' - 1880 and 1910 age suggesting born about 1875 then 1900 Census and Death Certificate saying born 1878 = ye olde Mexican Standoff! In June 1900 Charles and Catherine stated they had been married 25 years which gives us very late 1874 or, more likely 1875 for a marriage year. In the 1885 New Jersey State Census young Thomas was in the age range 5-20 so that is of no help. I still cannot find a birth record for Thomas or a marriage record for Charles and Catherine in New Jersey or New York ..... or anywhere else for that matter. Ct
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