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Post by Zenobia on Mar 25, 2007 16:37:12 GMT -5
I notice that the early burial entries in the Towednack parish register seem to have a 'completeness of detail' in that persons are usually denoted as 'son of', 'daughter of', 'wife of', 'widow', 'infant' etc. The connotation of this can be very important to research in this parish, particularly as it applies to females. For instance, could it be assumed that most females simply listed in the form of: "Jane Doe" with no other descriptor are spinsters? Or are there frequent occasions where child, wife or widow may have been omitted? I note one entry in 1727, where Catherine Trewhella (who was the widow of John), does not have the descriptor "widow' applied to her name. Can anyone identify other instances of this? Knowing how frequently this occurred might make it easier to ascertain the identy of previously unidentified females whose burials appear at Towednack. Towednack Burials |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 26, 2007 15:38:36 GMT -5
Hi again Zenobia,
I can answer this one to a certain extent.
But I first have to make a correction for you regarding the date of 'Katherine Trewhela's' burial.
It was actually, according to Hoblyn, 5th February 1723 (not 1727).
And there are numerous entries in the Towednack records which are similar and, among those, there are many I have not yet tracked down.
Jane Parsons bu. Apr 3, 1728
Ruth Trevoroe bu. Apr 30 1730
Cheston Parsons bu. Apr 17 1732
Wilmot Carnow bu. Nov 27 1732
Mary Pearce, of Lelant bu. Nov ?? 1759
Mary Pearce bu. May 14 1765
Above are just a few of those I have not yet tracked down but I do have other examples of similar entries where I have been successful in tracing (some is reasonable conjecture) :-
Duence Battrall bu. Feb 2 1747 (almost certainly wife of Samuel for whom I have found three children but nothing further)
Rebekah Berriman bu. Dec 18 1753 (that is the total entry but she was the widow of John Berriman who was buried at Towednack in 1741.)
So, Towednack entries are not quite as complete as they may seem and it certainly does not 'particularly' apply to females as I have found similar burial references for males who died at a very young age with no reference to parentage in the burial record.
But back to Catherine Trewhella - I managed to track down the fact that this was 'probably' her burial through the Admon. papers of her previously deceased husband.
Admon. was granted to son James Trewheela of Ludgvan in 1727/8 and stated/inferred that John had died about 1716 and Katherine about 1723. (Preamble to Inventory - "John Trewhella had died about 12 years before and that Katherine had died about 4 years before")
There had been another, elder, son named John but, as Admon. was granted to James it appears that John must be the lad buried at Towednack in 1722.
Basically, the 'rule' seems to have applied to both male and female burials in Towednack.
However, should anyone have any queries about Towednack please contact me and I will help as best I can.
Ian
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Post by Zenobia on Mar 26, 2007 17:45:11 GMT -5
Hi again Zenobia, I can answer this one to a certain extent. But I first have to make a correction for you regarding the date of 'Katherine Trewhela's' burial. It was actually, according to Hoblyn, 5th February 1723 (not 1727). And there are numerous entries in the Towednack records which are similar and, among those, there are many I have not yet tracked down. Ooops! I pulled that date out of my head without checking...  Wilmot Curnow would be the wife of Robert Curnow Jr., so here would be an excellent example of one not identified... I also just ran across one other example: Katherine Curnow bur. 3 Mar 1732/3 She would be the wife of David Curnow (Jr) and died giving birth to their last child, who was chr. one day earlier. Now we are venturing into a later period where the PR seems to get much 'sloppier'. I note that entries seem much more complete for the late 1600s and very early 1700s, so I am wondering mostly what the error rate would be for that specific time period...  Ah! That seems to have happened at some point in most parishes, usually in the mid 1700s. I've seen it in both Lelant and Ludgvan. It usually becomes discernable when one keeps finding too many supposed 'adults' of the same name and then comes to light when one compares instances of families 'renaming' children with an earlier name and it becomes apparent that many of the burials were children, but not shown as such. I wonder what was going on with the mid 1700s parish clerks that they got so lazy? ;D |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 27, 2007 13:09:20 GMT -5
I think you may find, 'dear cousin' (I know who you are!!) :-) that many of the Clergy decided to 1. leave the paperwork until later - that is have a few relaxants and kick back for a while (surely - why do today what can be left until tomorrow!) and then do the paperwork later relying on memory. Or 2. Entrust the clerical work to a Churchwarden or someone else available to do the work.
Also remember that, if working at night (and 'possibly' from earlier notes) these people would have been working by candle-light.
There also seems to have been a period of 'I don't care' attitude for some reason.
But - you also mention the periods of decline and here is one point I think I must differ with.
Ref: 'Cornwall and It's People' - Hamilton-Jenkin in which reference is made of John HINGSTON in 1681 making a complaint against the Vicar's non-attendance in the Parish due to a child of his having died unbaptised.
I think that shows a bit of a picture about the times.
Cornish Terrier
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Post by Zenobia on Mar 27, 2007 19:54:13 GMT -5
But - you also mention the periods of decline and here is one point I think I must differ with. Ref: 'Cornwall and It's People' - Hamilton-Jenkin in which reference is made of John HINGSTON in 1681 making a complaint against the Vicar's non-attendance in the Parish due to a child of his having died unbaptised. I think that shows a bit of a picture about the times. Fortunately, I think they kicked that fellow out before 1683, when the Towednack PR becomes most readily available....  What was his name? It started with a B, I think... |
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Post by trencrom on Jul 1, 2007 23:02:11 GMT -5
Something similar seems to have happened in Zennor in that during John Oliver's tenure as vicar in the early 1700s I could find only a couple of burials identified as those of infants, whereas a comparison with the surviving BTs for his predecessor shows that the true rate of under-age deaths must have been much higher than those explicitly identified as such. This of course is problematic if you cannot identify whether a given burial is for a child or for an adult.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 2, 2007 12:27:52 GMT -5
'Problematic' - sort of hits the 'nail right on the head'!  So, unless we find other records to substantiate our findings/thoughts our conclusions become very problematic and cannot be placed as accurate. Madron and Gulval are, from what I have seen, among the most notorious for giving the most basic of details regarding a Burial. It is only in some cases where the Burial seems to have something to do with someone of importance that we seem to see any further details. Just such as, in the same Parishes, with Baptisms where only the name of the father is recorded. (Most difficult when you have numerous men of the same name having children around the same time - and also when those Parishes adjoin others who have similarly named people having children at the same time.) ;D (Even worse when we find some of these people interracting with their neighbouring Parishes for a number of reasons.) |
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Post by davidkingmartin on Jun 19, 2008 4:01:45 GMT -5
I have found these early entries useful (assisted by various members of this Forum) in "stitching together" the Martins of my lineage, leading me to Lambert M./Phillis Treweeler (Lambert: 1655-1723, fifth son of David 1598-1666, Stithians, and willed a cow in David`s Will).
Lambert had many siblings incl. Richard d1664, who married, in 1634, Margaret Arundell (died 16 Feb.1677).
Does anyone know anything about this Margaret? The Arundell family were well-off: the Kenegie property at Gulval passed to them from Christopher Harris (d1775), husband of a Elizabeth Martin of whom I know nothing). The Arundells occupied the Trengwainton property.
The Harris family were also wealthy and related to Fulk Grevill/Elizabeth Willoughby (the Warwicks/Wilts family).
D.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 19, 2008 14:28:53 GMT -5
I know nothing of this Margaret Arundell at the moment but will have a look and see if I can find something about her.
But I do have a query for you.
If Richard died in 1664 and as married in 1634 I am sure he could not have been a sibling to Lambert Martin.
The earliest known of Lambert's siblings was Jane bp. 26th July 1635 at Perranaworthal. (Martin Society)
And the last known was Martin bp. 25th March 1655 at Stithians.
Richard would have to have been born no later than about 1618 so must be a generation earlier.
Please let me know what further information you have on this early part of the Martin clan.
Ian
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Post by davidkingmartin on Jun 19, 2008 16:07:55 GMT -5
Ian: Sorry, my error.
Richard is a sibling of David Martin (or Martayn, or Davy).
David: 1598-16 Mar.1666, Stithians. Sources: Martin Soc., and others.
Jane 1635 m9 Feb.1662 Peter Kemp.
Martin M.1654 or 5-1710 m.Thomsen, or Tamsin, Odger 30 Jly 1687...I think (various sources).
John M. 1642-1896: executor of father`s Will.
And others....
Lambert is the fifth son of the aforementioned David. Dad left him a cow.
More to come.
David.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 20, 2008 16:06:54 GMT -5
Davd - I will look forward to your next and work from there. As I understand it Jane (m. Peter Kemp) married a second time to William Crougy. Must have been a lively old b____r when he kicked the bucket. My information on this early part of the Martin family mostly came from the Martin Society and is more than 10 years old so there may have been corrections as well as additions etc. Will look forward to discussing this with you but must now think about some sleep given that I did myself some ill-will by sampling a couple more beverages than I should have tonight.  Have had messages 'out of the blue' from other members connected to my more recent Trewhella family also which is exciting so all seems to be happening.  Will try and look at the Martin stuff tonight. |
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Post by davidkingmartin on Jun 21, 2008 3:42:09 GMT -5
The "early" Martins, cont.
What follows is probably very familiar to Ian, and others, and is "trawled" from the internet.
Roger Martin
Son John Martyn d 24 Oct.1578, Illogan. Brother: Alexander Martyn.
John`s son: John,d 1629. Married "Temperence". Kinspeople: Richards, Jalberte. Children: Joane and Davie (poss.)
John`s son:John 1580-1642 (or 1619?, 1X Dec.....some muddle here!), Penhalvear, St Stithians, a churchwarden?.Co-tenant with James Martin and William Jenkin of a property in the Manor of Tretheage held by Sir Bernard Grenville and son Bevill, of "Stowe in Kirkhampton".
John`s son: David ("Davy"), St Stithians 1598-1666.
More to come.
David.
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Post by davidkingmartin on Jun 21, 2008 4:04:55 GMT -5
[Continued].
Davy Martin(s) m Frances 1635. Frances bap.1618, d 8 May 1667, St Stithians. David`s siblings MAY incl.:
John d 1X Dec 1619
Martin
Robert d 1667
Richard d 1664. Wife: Margaret Arundell.
Elizabeth d 1615.
Another David? d 19 Dec 1630.
Siblings of Lambert 1655-1723 may incl.:
Martin 1654, m Tamsin Odger. They had a child Thomasin 1725 d 1803 who married Thomas Curnow of Gwenapp 1747. Thomas b 1726, d 1771. There may be a brother Peter Curnow.
Tamsin may have a sibling "Grenville".
Edmund 1650-1690, m Dorothy. Son James 1676-1736. His son: William 1731-1816. His son: John 1772. His son: Hon. James 1821-1899 (Australia)....etc.
William 1647-1696
John 1642-96, exec.of Will.
Margery 1640-96
Vincent 1638-1705, with child Vincent
Jane 1635 m P Kemp 1662.
More later.
David.
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Post by davidkingmartin on Jun 21, 2008 8:09:55 GMT -5
[Continued].
Not so much Towed. as Stithians:
Heading back in time. John Martyn died 1629 may have had siblings: Nicholas, Pascow, Jamys and Henry. No dates
Azazella59 (Kathie W., Ohio) has a GEDCOM which incl. Lambert M. (1655) but if we go back 400 yrs we find a William Martin (Baron) 1257-1324, daughter Joan 1291-1322 , son William died 1326, daughter Eleanor d 1343 .....etc etc... lots of detail in Burkes Peerage (Google Books). It would take years to "unravel" the available info. (Wills, Probate etc) to try to link Lambert with the Baron`s family, but the name "Audley" crops up eg Joan 1291 m.Nicholas de Audley 1292-1316, daughter Alice.
And many Grenville/Grevill/Grenfell names, common in Cornwall.
A branch of the Baron`s family ended up in Cornwall, possibly via Devon (the Barnstaple Martins).
I have mentioned Fulk Grevill1505 and his grandson Arthur`s "connection" with Kenegie/Gulval in another posting (with a reference to Arundell).
All quite interesting...but many persons have researched the subject drawing upon the same inconclusive info. available. You end up in a very messy "web".
David.
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Post by gandolf on Jun 21, 2008 8:31:21 GMT -5
The comments by davidkingmartin intrigue me no end.
David, given that there are several branches of the Arundell family do you know which branch the Margaret you refer to belongs?
My interest stems from my own ancestry which includes both Arundells and Harris's as summarised below:
Margaret Arundell (1704-1788) married Richard Prior. (Margaret was the daughter of John Arundell & Elizabeth Newman, ie the Truthall, Sithney branch of the Arundell family).
Their son:
Arundell Prior (1727-1803) married Jane Millwood of Phillack. Arundell seems to have moved from Sithney across to Phillack/Lelant, where the Watts family was based.
Their daughter:
Mary Prior (1770-1858) married George Watts. Co-incidence or otherwise, one of the witnesses to the marriage was a William Harris.
Their son:
George Watts (1794-1858) married Thomasina Harris (1789-1875)
Thomasina Harris was the daughter of Richard and Martha Harris. I still need to do more research on the Harris's, as they are proving somewhat difficult.
Richard appears on the 1841 census aged 75 (implying a birth around the mid 1760's), living with his daughter and son-in-law (and George Watts & wife Mary nee Pryor both aged 70).
The only marriage that I can find so far for a Richard Harris and a Martha from 1765 -1805 is 2 Feb 1789 at Lelant to Martha Toye. The challenge here is that Martha seems to be christened 6 Mar 1763 at Constantine to William and Margaret Toye - a good distance from Lelant.
As well as Thomasina Harris chr 12 Oct 1789 at Lelant, there is only one other apparent child - Richard chr 29 Dec 1793 at Lelant.
My other challenge is Richard Harris. While there are one or two Harris families around Lelant/Phillack they don't seem to have any Richards in them. There is a Harris family in nearby Gwithian in the mid to late 1600's where Richard is commonly used as a first name but so far I have been unable to connect the two.
So if anyone can help, that would be great.
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