Rowe family- Eliza Jane and Phillis?

[Mal]

I noticed on a check that I have some Rowes on an indirect line_

Thomas Henry Davi(e)s marries Eliza Jane Rowe

On the 1891 Census Thomas Henry and Eliza are there with Phillis Rowe (aged 62 deaf and dumb since birth).. poor woman.... Phillis is Eliza Jane's sister. So far I have Eliza as being the daughter of John Rowe and possibly Mary (?).

I was wondering if there be any connection between this Rowe family and the Phillis Rowe who married William Davies in 1801 and I believe had a son? The William Davies who has so far eluded us!!!

The children I have for Thomas Henry Davies and Eliza Jane Rowe are:-
William Thomas
George Henry
Mary Jane
Alice
Edith

Perhaps Cornishmaid might know something about these Rowes and a possible connection.
Thanks in advance

[Cornish Terrier]

Eliza Jane ROWE "may be":-

9 Aug 1838 Eliza Jane c/o William and Jane Rowe (Gardener) of Lariggan Private baptism - at Madron

Have just found the family in the 1851 Census and that is definitely her.

New St, Madron
Custom House Lane

Jane ROWE, head, wid., 51, green grocer, ?
James do., son, unm., 22, green grocer, St Erth
Phillis do., daur, unm., 19, asst at home, Madron (deaf and dumb)
John do., son, 15, errand boy, Madron
Eliza do., daur, 13, scholar, Madron
Elizabeth do., daur, 13, scholar, Madron
Richard do., son, 8, Gulval (deaf and dumb)
George do., son, 6, Madron

1861 Census
New St, Penzance

Jane ROWE, head, wid., 59, green grocer, Sancreed
Phillis do., daur, unm, 28, washerwoman, Madron (deaf and dumb)
Eliza J do., daur, unm, 23, dressmaker, Madron
George do., son, 15, Madron (deaf and dumb)
Richard do., son, 17, mason apprentice, Madron

Seems they couldn't remember who was deaf and dumb - George or Richard.

1871 Census
New St, Penzance

Richard ROWE, head, unm, 28, cordwainer, Penzance (deaf and dumb)
Phillis do., sister, unm, 43, servant in house, Penzance (deaf and dumb)

I cannot locate them in 1881 so will now go back and check 1841 and see what that can tell us.

1841 Census
Higher Lariggan, Madron

William Rowe, 42, gardener
Jane do., 41
James do., 12
William do., 10
John do., 6
Phillis do., 9
Alice do., 7
Elizabeth do., 2
Eliza do., 2

So William died sometime between about 1845 and the 1851 Census.

This 'may' be the marriage:-

William ROWE married Jane ROWE 12th June 1821 at Madron

If it is the one then there are probably more children before James.

Now to see what baptisms I can find to add to the picture.

These are all at Madron:-

12 Feb 1822 Jane c/o William and Jane Rowe (Husbandman) of Bosoliack Private baptism

27 May 1823 Jane c/o William and Jane Rowe (Labourer) of Polteggan Private baptism

9 Aug 1838 Elizabeth c/o William and Jane Rowe (Gardener) of Lariggan Private baptism
9 Aug 1838 Eliza Jane c/o William and Jane Rowe (Gardener) of Lariggan Private baptism

16 Jun 1843 Richard c/o William and Jane Rowe (Gardener) of Boscrowan Private baptism

20 Jul 1845 George Henry c/o William and Jane Rowe (Gardener) of Lariggan

Have checked Gulval so the remaining baptisms must have been at Penzance for which I do not have records.

Burials at Madron for this family:-

Jane Rowe of Boskinning, aged 1m 17 Mar 1822

So much of the family is now pieced together but I have to say that William's demise was damned untimely as far as we are concerned.

Because he died before 1851 we do not know where he was born and are also left to guess at his date of birth.

Maybe we don't have to guess so much.
Something not all that often seen is that in 1841 he actually stated his age as 42!

So we may only be looking at about 1798 and 1799 for a birth - bigger problem though is just WHICH PARISH!

PHILLIS ROWE

I understanding you seeing this name as a possible pointer to a relationship with the 1801 marriage.

However, the son of William and Phillis DAVIES was baptised on the Isles of Scilly 21st November 1802.

Your William's age during the Census is consistent with a birth of 1799/1800 with one Census indicating a possible birth in 1798.

At death in the March Qtr of 1870 William's age was recorded as 70 which indicates 1799 as more likely his year of birth.

That being the case I would doubt William and Phillis have anything to do with the problem.

Must leave it with that for the time being but at least there are some additions for you.

[Mal]

Hi CT,

Problem is...... OPC has Eliza Jane Rowe has JOHN as being her father I had a look on the census and came up with similar facts but this Phillis has thrown a spanner in the works. Is it possible that OPC is wrong? Hmm....

As for the Rowe thing, I see your point but I am trying to build up a connection of who was connected with whom!!!

I have also found a mysterious Phillip Gendall (GENDELL) who marries a Susannah Davies in the 1760's, could be a connection with MAry Gendal, but as usual the record dries up there!!!


I do think there must have been some connection with the Rowe family because later on John Sampson Davies, William's grandson, my g-g-grandfather, marries Clarinda Rowe who sadly died a year into the marriage.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

[Cornish Terrier]

Problem is...... OPC has Eliza Jane Rowe has JOHN as being her father

AHA! - the old 'red herring in the OPC' trick!

An inadvertant 'red herring' but one of those slippery little devils nonetheless! (and not the fault of the OPC)

Not the first time I have come across this problem and it is easily explained.

You must remember that Eliza was born in 1838 and was probably only about seven when her father died and that was about (probably) sixteen years before her marriage.

I would suggest that she simply did not remember her father.

Remember that we have the proof of 'deaf and dumb' Phillis and all other data flows right from the 1841 Census and including the baptism records I found.

As I said - I have come across this before and it is not really unusual.

Malcolm - a fair chance this is the burial of Eliza's father:-

William Rowe of Polteggan, aged 48 9 Mar 1847

Next Question - what date and where did the Philip Gendal marriage take place?

If you can give me the details it will save me looking through pages of Marriages and I will be happy to have a bit of a look at it for you.

And your desire to connect the Rowe families .... a lot of work there and fraught with pitfalls.

I have to say that the problems here are many but if you are prepared for the task I am certainly not going to stop you - in fact I will be glad to help where I can!

But you must remember that Rowe is probably like a small version of Smith or Thomas or Williams so it most certainly will not be easy.

And there were Rowes around Madron and nearby Parishes who came from other parts and so probably have no actual relationship.

Probably one of the bigger problems is the fact that the areas you are looking at, certainly prior to 1800, in most cases did not record the name of the mother when a child was baptised.

I do see your point about the Rowe name being involved in several close generations but it does not always mean that each of those Rowes were related.

Here is a classic example from my Trewhella family:-

I have a John TREWHELA who married Mary (maiden name not recorded) at Crowan in 1713.

So far I have never been able to find any please where John could reasonably fit into any of my TREWHELLA(var.) branches.

However, his wife left a Will in 1758 which helps with the children but not much more.

Amongst there children was daughter Catherine baptised at Crowan in 1723.

Catherine married William ODGERS at Ludgvan in 1743 and appears to have had five children with him before he died. (Have not yet located his burial but ..)

And then I have James TREWHEELA who was baptised at Towednack in 1695 son of John and Katherine TREWHELLA who can be reasonably traced back to about 1582.

James married Jane QUICK at Ludgvan in 1729.
Jane was buried at Zennor in 1730 and in 1733 James married Susanna FLEMING at Madron.

Susanna was buried at Ludgvan in 1754.

James left a Will in 1763 in which he names children of his 'now wife Catherine' and the surname of the children recorded in the Will was 'Jogars'

James married Catherine ODGERS, widow, at Ludgvan in 1755.

From the Will, given that the 'Jogars' children were individually named, it transpires that JOGARS/ODGERS were one and the same.

So what we have, ultimately, is James TREWHEELA marrying Catherine TREWHELA.

Guess what - seems they were not related! - or if there is a relationship then it must go back possibly as far as the 1500's.

My point - just because a certain name turns up in the family in successive (or successive but one) generations it does not necessarily mean that there is a familial relationship.

Just something for you to consider and I have seen similar sorts of things in the QUICK families and others.

As I said I am quite willing to help all I can but need to make sure you are aware of what you might be letting yourself in for.

Really must get back to what I tried to start about 15 hours ago!

Mind you - I did have a couple of hours off to wathc the Cricket! ;D

From the Madron OPR and also on the OPC site.

[Mal]

Thanks for the wise words CT! Yes, I do bear what you have said in mind too, I try not to see just what I "want to see" if you catch my drift. I have come across a lot of Family Trees on the web that overlap with mine with all sorts of inaccuracies and assumptions. I try to keep as cool as possible, remember when I first arrived and Cornishmaid and I were "cousins" for a week until we cross examined the material? I see what you mean with a name like Rowe, all over the place!!!

Anyway thanks for the tips and now that someone has confirmed that OPC can be wrong, I think we have at least found out who Eliza Jane and Phillis's parents were. I find it hard to believe that someone would forget their father so to speak, but if her father died young she may well have referred to this "John" as Dad in an affectionate way as for all intents and purposes he was. Sad when you think about it. Isn't amazing how these little glimpses of history reveal a bit more about the actual people we are dealing with and not just the dry names and dates on paper that they often become... if only they could speak.

The sad thing in my family is that my grandparents had a trunk full of photos, certificates, letters and postcards from at least the 19th century that was lost forever when the ship that was transporting their belongings from South Africa to Britain took in saltwater and the lot was ruined! As someone interested in history I could cry...!!! Anyway, on a more cheerful note, I will get back to you as soon as possible with that other information, Keigwin etc you requested.

All the best,

PS What cricket? Here in Italy I have to explain to them that it isn't croquet and it isn't polo either.... barbarians....

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Malcolm - Glad to see you accepted my note in the way it was intended.

I was very tired when I composed it and after I sent it I wondered whether or not I seemed to have climbed aboard my 'high horse'.

Was not the case of course - meely laying the cards on the table.

The Cricket was a 20/20 match between Australia and an Australian All Stars team - set up as an introduction to the Australian Summer Circket Season and also done as a Charity thing.

BTW - the OPC is not necessarily wrong!
I would suggest that what they have transcribed is exactly what they saw in the Register and that it was, in fact, either an error made by the Clerk of the day or, more likely, that Eliza simply did not know her deceased father's name or that for some reason he had been affectionately known as John.

CT

[davidkingmartin]

"Rowe" researchers should be aware that the name has "appeared" on some Census returns as:
RAUSE, eg 1871 Census, at Mulfra ("my" William Rowe).
BOWE, eg 1851, ditto.....
(William Rowe, father of Lavinia W.Rowe 1852,Madron.

Someone on this Forum helpfully pointed this out to me about a year ago!

David.