John and Nancy Quick

[Deleted]

Here is a little conundrum for anybody interested to consider.

John Quick, son of Benedict Quick and Jane Stevens, was baptised about 1810 at St Ives and married in 1837 to Nancy Gyles Paynter of St Ives, daughter of William Paynter and Mary Gyles.

In the 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871 censuses Nancy Gyles Quick appears (birth date generally given as 1813), mostly without John who is away playing at being a Master Mariner.

To get a baptism date for Nancy I checked the St Ives baptism register and found two daughters of William and Mary with Gyles as a middle name - Nancy and Mary. But while the baptism date for Mary Gyles Paynter is 1813, ;D the date for Nancy Gyles Paynter is 1803.

In 1881 the wife of John is named as Mary Gyles Quick.

Something funny here

[gandolf]

Lannanta -

FreeBDMs has:
Deaths Mar 1/4 1887
Quick Nancy Gyles 73 Penzance 5c 209

This is consistant with the headstone details from Barnoon Cemetery:
John Quick master mariner 15/5/1886 75 also Nancy Gyles wife 17/2/1887 73 also daughter Elizabeth Quick Johns 25/5/1930 80 also Joseph her husband 19/12/1893 46 also Capt. Benedict Quick son drowned at sea 3/1867 26 also daughter Nancy 28/7/1906 67

Nancy's age at death is consistant with her quoted age on census records. I suspect that the 1881 census probably has a mis-transcription of Nancy's name as Mary?

That being said I don't have a good explanation for the discrepancy with the baptismal records. The only possibility that comes to mind is that Nancy Gyles Paynter (b 1803) died before 1813 and that Mary Gyles Paynter was also known as Nancy? This might also explain the 1881 census record.

[Deleted]

Gandolf

Exactly my thoughts. In the 1881 census it also appears as if the one daughter still at home, Mary, is also the daughter called Nancy in previous census.

CT made the point that a burial for a Nancy Gyles between 1803 and 1813 would be helpful. The sources I use do not show such a burial but maybe they are not complete.

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

Well troops fresh off my success with the POLGLASE/DUNSTAN thread (a slight hiccough with the BRYANT problem still ongoing : I have decided to try to help put you out of 'our' misery. ;D

I have, so far, followed this family through all Census years up until (and including) 1881.

As both John and Nancy died in the mid-1880's I can leave 1891 and 1901 for the time being.

I have also (apart from the two baptisms I had - for John and Mary) matched the births of the children from FreeBMD.

You should both have the list of children but just in case:-

John bp. 7th June 1838 St Ives
married 1. Grace WELCH in 1864
married 2. Hannah Jane Richards WELCH in 1877
John died 18th June 1916 and is buried at Barnoon

Nancy born 1839
She died 28th July 1906 and is buried at Barnoon

Benedict born 1840
drowned at sea in March 1867

Mary bp. 2nd September 1842

Jane born 1845

Wilmot born 1847

Elizabeth born 1850
married Joseph JOHNS in 1877
she died at St Ives 25th May 1930 and is buried at Barnoon

Margaret born 1851

Catherine born 1853

All events, unless specified otherwise, were at St Ives.

All children were at home for the Census except:-

1861 Benedict

1871 Benedict (d. 1867), Mary, Jane and Wilmot

1881 Nancy (recorded as Mary) is the only one left at home

That narrowed the search field down to a starting point of 1861 to try and find out what happened to each of the children.

Up until 1871 I need only concern myself with Mary, Jane and Wilmot so here are the results so far.

No death found for any of these girls so they have either married or have left the County/Country.

And success first up!

1865 Penzance R.D. June Qtr Vol 5c Page 541
Philip Bennets THOMAS
Mary QUICK

In the 1871 Philip and Mary were at Henley Cottages, Lyme Road, Axminster, Devon.

They had two children at that time - Thomas aged 5 and Benedict Q aged 2.

Strangely - Benedict Q was enumerated as a 'daughter' with the age in the male column having been crossed out.

I checked FreeBMD to confirm that this was Benedict QUICK THOMAS and it is obvious that the name was used to honor Mary's brother who had recently been lost at sea.

All were born at St Ives apart from Benedict who was born at Axminster.

And now I need to try and track down Jane so to avoid the risk of losing this message I will post my results in a following note.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Part the 2.

In my earlier post I had missed one note I had written.

I found a Jane QUICK (I believe is certainly 'our girl') working as a draper's assistant at Fareham, Hampshire.

Wilmot - I believe this will be her in the 1881 Census:-

Dwelling: Kingswood Hill Waits Lane
Census Place: Mangotsfield, Gloucester, England
Source: FHL Film 1341589 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 2446 Folio 3 Page 3
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
William J. ELLIOTT M 28 F Kingswood, Gloucester, England
Rel: Head
Occ: Cattle Dealer
Willmott ELLIOTT M 33 F St Ives, Cornwall, England
Rel: Wife
Annie W. ELLIOTT 2 F Kingswood, Gloucester, England
Rel: Daur
William J. ELLIOTT 9 m M Kingswood, Gloucester, England
Rel: Son
Annie SHAPCOTT 15 F London, Middlesex, England
Rel: Servant
Occ: General Servant


That was as a result of the following marriage:-

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1876 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ELLIOTT William John L Penzance 5c 477
HARRY Edwin Penzance 5c 477
HARRY Grace Penzance 5c 477
Quick Willmot Penzance 5c 477
Quick Wilmot Penzance 5c 477

I still cannot find her in 1871 even trying a blank name field with just a search for anyone born St Ives 1847 and then 1848.

But St Ives could be transcribed as S. NEES, of course.

Never mind, I think I have her placed correctly.

In the next post I hope to have checked the remaining Census and compiled a more complete list of children for Mary and Wilmot.

I also hope to have tracked Jane down again and it is also time to locate Margaret and Catherine.

More to follow.

[Cornish Terrier]

More success!

1872 Penzance December Qtr Vol 5c Page 511
Edwin Harvey BATEMAN
Jane QUICK

In the 1881 Census Jane and Edwin were living at High St, Selsey, Sussex along with Edwin's 12 year old neice Clara.

Jane was then 35 so it would appear that she had no children, at least none that survived.

Margaret - looks like she married James LANDER

1880 Penzance June Qtr Vol 5c Page 389
James LANDER
Margaret QUICK

1881 Census for St Ives

Dwelling: 16 Back Road
Census Place: St Ives, Cornwall, England
Source: FHL Film 1341562 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 2341 Folio 73 Page 4
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
James LANDER M 28 M St Ives, Cornwall, England
Rel: Head
Occ: Fisherman
Margrett LANDER M 29 F St Ives, Cornwall, England
Rel: Wife

Now there is just Catherine to deal with and then see if I can find any further children in the final couple of Census years.

[Cornish Terrier]

And the last of the marriages!

In all cases I have checked to ensure that I am not doubling up on marriages.
i.e. I have looked at each possibility and compared with my database and then checked details in the Census so I am sure that the conclusions I have arrived at will 'stand the test'.

What is required to confirm the findings would be the actual marriage record or a transcription thereof but, unfortunately, it appears that most of these marriages probably occurred in the Registry Office - especially where both parties were St Ives people.

Here is Catherine:-

1880 Penzance R.D. January Qtr Vol 5c Page 369
Job STEVENS
Catherine QUICK

1881 Census at St Ives

Dwelling: 4 Back Road
Census Place: St Ives, Cornwall, England
Source: FHL Film 1341562 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 2341 Folio 72 Page 1
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Job (Jn.) STEVENS M 27 M St Ives, Cornwall, England
Rel: Head
Occ: Fisherman
Catherine STEVENS M 27 F St Ives, Cornwall, England
Rel: Wife
Job STEVENS 4 m M St Ives, Cornwall, England
Rel: Son

I am yet to identify Job STEVENS but that should not be difficult - I hope!

I already had this marriage in the database but had not worked out which families Job and Catherine belonged to.

I know of three further children in addition to Job:-

Catherine Quick STEVENS born 11th January 1883 and baptised 2nd September 1887 at St Ives

John Quick STEVENS born 16th July 1887 and baptised 2nd September 1887 at St Ives

Elizabeth Annie STEVENS born 18th February 1894 and baptised 20th April 1894 at St Ives

et voila! - just to check for any further children and, possibly, see if I have enough data available to find some burials.

More if I find it.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

This should be the final update on this subject for tonight.

The only addition after checking the 1891 Census is that James and Margaret LANDER had a daughter Margaret born about 1881 at St Ives.

Have not been able to find Mary, Jane or Wilmot but I did not vigorously puruse them.

Merely entered birthplace, year of birth and name for a quick search.

Best I have a look at a few other items for a while.

[Deleted]

CT

In that case I will give you something else to ponder on.

Charles Wedge Quick was married to Elizabeth Nicholas. In the 1851 census they were living at Dygey and Norway respectively. Charles was the son of George Quick and Mary Gregory which explains the use of the name Gregory as a second name for some of Charles's children.

In the 1841 census Charles appears to be living with John and Betsey Quick at the Wharf. Given that 1841 does not reveal relationships to the head of the household, and given that George had died just prior to the 1841 census, would you agree that this John is most likely to be the uncle of Charles, John Jenkyn Quick, bap 1783, son of Richard Quick and Honour Jenkyn?

In the 1851 census, John and Betsey have a grand daughter Claria Polmear living with them. Would it be fair to suggest that Betsey is Elizabeth Polmear, married to John in 1826, and more likely to have been a second marriage for Elizabeth?

Appreciate your thoughts.

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

Let's start with John Jenkyn Quick.

First question - did John Jenkyn Quick (bp. 1783) survive through 1851?

Deaths Sep 1844 (99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUICK John Jenkin Penzance 9 135


Deaths Jun 1883 (92%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUICK John Jenkyn 64 Penzance 5c 200

There were five QUICKs with the christian names of John Jenkyn who need to be considered (at least one other born and married later).

1. s/o Richard and Honour bp. 1783
2. s/o William and Elizabeth 1813-1815
3. s/o William and Elizabeth bp. 1819
4. s/o George and Mary bp. 1820
5. s/o John Jenkyn and Martha bp. 1844

And there are two marriages for John Jenkyn Quick that can be considered with the above.

The 1883 death must be either 3. or 4.

5. married Eliza Jane SISLEY at St Ives in 1870
4. married Martha STEVENS at St Ives in 1844

4. was still alive in 1881 but had died before the 1891 Census so it was he who died in 1883.

The 1844 death therefore is either no 1. or no 3.

I cannot find 3. in any Census but I have him labelled as a 'fisherman' which indicates I have further information on him somewhere.

At this point I am not prepared to say which of the two died in 1844 so I will now work on the details from the 1841 and 1851 Census.

In 1841 John and Betsy had Elizabeth POLMEAR, age 15, with them.

In 1851 they had grandaughter Clara POLMEAR, niece Mary Ann WOOLCOCK and grandsons Daniel and Henry D EDWARDS with them.

While I am still checking things - just take a look at this from the 1861 Census index on you-know-where:-

John Quick abt 1836 Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, St Ives Lodger St Ives, Cornwall
View Record

John Quick Thomas,
Alorvina abt 1852 Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, Zennor Son St Ives, Cornwall

I had a look at the original image and there is know son whatsoever of Schwarzburg-etc... on that page!

Thought that might amuse you during the interval ... ;D

Right - some conclusions.

First of all - I am not prepared to say definitely that John was actually John Jenkyn QUICK and therefore uncle of Charles and his brother Thomas who was also in the same abode in 1841.

Circumstantial evidence suggests that it is Charles' uncle but the absence of any record of him with the second name or even just second initial places doubt in my mind.

It looks like both John and Bestsy had died prior to the 1861 Census and although there are a number of John Quicks dying between 1851 and 1861 in the Penzance district none of them was recorded as John Jenkyn (or J) Quick.

We really only have that 1844 death for John Jenkin QUICK and I can still find no sign of the son of William and Elizabeth who was bp. in 1819.

Now the 1851 household included more relatives than you recorded in your query.

We had as follows:-

Clara POLMEAR, 19, grandaughter
Daniel EDWARDS, 18, grandson
Henry D EDWARDS, 15, grandson
Mary A WOOLCOCK, 19, niece

From these I was able to determine conclusively that John's wife was Elizabeth POLMEAR and that she was a widow when she married John QUICK.

Henry POLMEAR m. Elizabeth NOALL 18th August 1805 at St Ives

Children:-

Henry bp. 20th April 1806
Mary Ann bp. 15th January 1809
David bp. 8th May 1812
Betsey bp. 15th July 1814
John bp. 26th September 1823

Henry POLMEAR was buried at St Ives 31st December 1823 age 39.

Henry m. Clarinda FREEMAN 8th February 1829 at St Ives

Clara POLMEAR bp. 7th September 1831 St Ives

Mary Ann m. Daniel EDWARDS 18th August 1830 at St Ives

Daniel EDWARDS bp. 6th June 1834
Henry Daniel EDWARDS bp. 3rd January 1836

Those are the grandchildren and it is obvious they are all Elizabeth's grandchildren.

Mary Ann WOOLCOCK bp. 30th September 1831 at St Ives d/o Anthony and Margery WOOLCOCK.

Anthony WOOLCOCK m. Margery NOALL 26th December 1818 at St Ives

And there is the niece.

So Elizabeth and Margery NOALL were sisters and it appears they were the children of Peter and Mary NOALL.

** I need Cornishmaid to clarify this **

Peter NOALL m. Mary HARRY 4th August 1774 at St Ives

Amongst there children were:-

Elizabeth bp. 20th May 1781
Padgey bp. 1st December 1793

Padgey was, in fact, Margery and this seems to have been some sort of nickname for girls named Margery.

So there is everything I can tell you.

[Deleted]

CT

I am probably going to embarrass myself with this piece of analysis, but it wouldn't be the first mistake I have made. ;D

There are a number of Johns born between 1780 and 1790.

1. John Bap 15/7/1781 Zennor James
2. John Bap 8/7/1782 Zennor James
3. John Bap 9/3/1783 St Ives John & Joanna
4. John Jenkyn Bap 31/10/1783 St Ives Richard & Honour
5. John Bap 30/4/1784 Phillack John & Jane

Let us exclude the first John from Zennor as he was replaced by the second one.
Then exclude the third one because I have him as the husband of Mary and dying in 1826.

This leaves 2, 4, and 5.

In the 1841 and 1851 census there is a John Glasson at Zennor born about 1783. So let us exclude 2.

Of 4 and 5, one was born in St Ives and one in Phillack. In the 1841 census again there is only one John (Jenkyn), born 1784, and from St Ives.

So if this is our John Jenkyn, what happened to the John from Phillack? There is a burial in 1831, at St Ives, for a John Quick aged 47, making him born around 1784.

Conclusions:
It is not unusual for the census to only record the first name. There have been numerous times when I have only found the second name by looking at FreeBMD.
I do know who the John from Phillack was, being the son of John and Jane Barnicoat. I also know that these parents moved to St Ives after the birth of their first couple of kids. But, the probability of Charles Wedge (twin of John Jenkyn), and Thomas staying with a distant cousin as opposed to an uncle living in a house devoid of children would have to be remote.

Appreciate your thoughts

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

I am 'fairly happy' at this point that the John buried in 1831 is the fella from Phillack.

But I am still not happy that the John who married Elizabeth Polmear is John Jenkin Quick.

You quite rightly mention the lack of second names in the Census.

And then you are quite right when you mention having to search FreeBMD to pick up on a second name.

So you have basically just highlighted another of my concerns about the John in question being born as John Jenkin Quick.

We have a John Jenkin Quick dying in 1844 (as per FreeBMD) but there are no qualifiers during that period to aid with our identification.

There are two John Jenkin Quicks of whom we are uncertain - 1783/4 s/o Richard and Honour and 1819 s/o William and Elizabeth.

It appears a given that one of these was the man who died in 1844.

Equally difficult with this problem is that I can not positively identify either one of them in the 1841 Census.

Let me throw in another small spanner.

We cannot find a baptism for Sampson Quick c. 1793 ........ which I should think makes it possible that we might be missing one or more baptisms.

Also a little odd - If it was John Jenkin Quick who married Elizabeth Polmear then why was he not recorded so at that time?

All your reasoning is sound and most things point to you being correct but .....

I still have those lingering doubts that prevent me from signing off on this one.

Some more detail from the 1844 death record would certainly be of help - if we can get hold of it.

One other thing that could be of help would be to view the PR entry for the marriage to Elizabeth Polmear.

And I am frustrated here because I have burials and marriages (with witnesses) all around these two required events ... I just don't have the bits we need.

Been taking a look at some PHILLIPS stuff for Mike but I will drop that again for a short time and take another look through the 1841 Census to see if there is anything I might have missed.

I'd just like to be sure on this one.

[Deleted]

Yep, sound judgement.