Who is Carlotta Demory?

[gandolf]

I have a conundrum that I am hoping one of our Quick or Baragwanath family experts can resolve. What I have is as follows:

Wilmot Quick was chr. 5 Feb 1797 Zennor, dau of Wilmot Quick & William Quick (who were 3rd cousins)
Wilmot married 4 Apr 1820 to Richard Baragwanath (chr. 13 Jul 1785 Towednack)

Wilmot & Richard Baragwanath had 4 known children:
Wilmot Baragwanath born c.1821 Towednack
Mary Baragwanath born c.1822 Towednack
Matthew Baragwanath born c.1826 Towednack
James Baragwanath born c.1830 Towednack

Wilmot Baragwanath married 1862 Penzance Dist. to John Quick (b. c.1810 Lelant – relationship unknown). No known issue.

Mary Baragwanath married 1856 Truro Dist. to James Dunstan (b c.1821 Truro). Five known children.

Matthew Baragwanath married 1849 Penzance Dist. to Elizabeth (either Andrewartha or Stratton – not sure which). Only one known child.

According to the 1881 census James Baragwanath married a woman called Annie and had at least 3 children (possibly 4) children.


Now to the questions.

Question 1:
James & Annie Baragwanath/Bargwanath appear on the 1881 census at Briton Ferrry, Glamorgan, Wales and with their children:
Mary Wilmot Bargwanath born c.1860 at Bridgend, Glamorgan
James Wills Bargwanath born 1866 at Bridgend, Glamorgan
Edgar Bargwanath born 1876 at Bridgend, Glamorgan
Mother Annie is listed as born at Sancreed, Cornwall about 1831.

The only candidate record for Mary Wilmot Baragwanath’s birth that I can find so far is in the BDMs at Lambeth, Surrey, Mar ¼ 1860 – not quite sure that this is correct though?

Although I can’t find her on the 1881 census, I suspect that there was a fourth child given the lack of Baragwanath/Bargwanath families in Wales:
Edith Gertrude Bargwanath born 1864 Dec ¼ Bridgend District, Glamorgan.

I had been unable to locate a marriage for James & Annie Baragwanath in Cornwall, so in desperation I checked Wales. And what I found was:
Dec ¼ 1855 Bridgend Dist./ 11a / 626
James Baragwanath to Nancy Berryman.

The only Nancy Berryman I can find that would fit the age of James’ wife ‘Annie’ is James’ first cousin Nancy Quick Berryman. However, I believe that this must be her, given the second name of Wills for son James – Nancy’s grandmother’s maiden name was Wills, and her father was John Wills Berryman.

Can someone shed some light confirming/disagreeing with the above?



Question 2:
And this ones the big one.

Wilmot (nee Baragwanath) and John QUick are listed on the 1871 census with a boarder:
Carloha Demory age 16, born Natal, South Africa.

Carloha turns out to actually be Carlotta Lewis Demory, born about 1855 Natal, South Africa.

I didn’t think any more of this until I found Wilmot's parents Wilmot and Richard Baragwanath on the 1861 census.
Carlotta appears again with Wilmot & Richard, this time as a 6 year old born in Natal. The key difference is that she is recorded as Wilmot & Richard's granddaughter.

So if Carlotta is Richard and Wilmot’s granddaughter, which of their children is Carlotta’s parent??

Matthew would seem to be out of the equation, since he married 1849.

James would seem to be out of the equation (assuming the scenrio in question 1 is correct as I detailed it), since as he married in Jun ¼ 1855 in Wales, he is unlikely to have brought an infant daughter back from South Africa a couple of months earlier (Carlotta could not have been born any earlier than around 1854/55 based on recorded age in the census records)

My inclination was to discount either of the two daughters, Wilmot and Mary, since it seems less likely that either would travel as a single woman to South Africa. Not impossible certainly, and especially if working as a servant to someone who went to South Africa, but still I think less likely.

Wilmot would have to be out of consideration anyway, since otherwise Carlotta would be a daughter not a boarder on the 1871 census.

So, I am now forced to reconsider Mary as Carlotta's mother as I have no other viable alternatives.

So the question is, are there any other children of Richard and Wilmot Baragwanath that I might have missed, and does anyone have any thoughts or theories as to the parent of Carlotta Demory?

[gandolf]

Further to my previous question...

Carlotta Lewis Demory is apparently Carlotta Louise Demory - at least that is the name she married under.

Carlota Louise Demory married 1904 Cardiff District, to either
Daniel Keone or Henry Hosking.

Given the fact that James Baragwanath & family moved to Wales, this might actually suggest that Carlotta Demory is in fact the daughter of James?

[londoner]

1891 at 22 Halsetown, St Ives

Class: RG12; Piece: 1854; Folio 7; Page 8; GSU roll: 6096964

Carlota L Quick 36 daughter - dressmaker
Wilmot Quick 70 Head - Staymaker

1901 Class: RG13; Piece: 2249; Folio: 8; Page: 8.

Living at Halse Town, St Ives
Carlota Louise Demory 44 Head, Durban S.Africa Dressmaker
Wilmot Quick 80 Mother, Towednack

Looks like the answer!

And in 1881 she was working as a nurse in Penzance:

Class: RG11; Piece: 2345; Folio: 118; Page: 2; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341563.

Carlotta Lewis Demory 25
Sarah Ann Downing 31 (servant)
Alexander Jacob 75 (visitor)
Adolphus George Oppenheim 6
Albert Edward Oppenheim 7
Alice Maud Oppenheim 2
Annie Oppenheim 13
Etty Oppenheim 11
Harry Samuel Oppenheim 9
Israel Oppenheim 37 (Head)
Matilda Oppenheim 34
Purtheynia Ann Taylor 19 (servant)

Now all you need to know is what was Wilmot up to before she married? And why was Carlotta listed as boarder not daughter in 1871?

[gandolf]

Hi Londoner,

Thanks for the 1901 census info and the confirmation of the relationship with Carlotta as the daughter of Wilmot Baragwanath.

Since my posts last night, I had done some more looking into this corner of the family, and found Wilmot (nee Baragwanath) Quick on the 1891 census. While it too confirms the mother-daughter relationship, it explains why I could not find Carlotta in 1891 when I was looking for her yesterday.

Piece: RG12/1854, Folio: 7, Page: 8, Schedule: 46
QUICK Wilmot, Head, Widow, 70, Stay Maker, born Towednack
QUICK Carlotta S, Daughter, Single, 36, Dressmaker, Born Africa, Natal, Durban

Probably a misunderstanding, with the census taker just dittoing the surname down after hearing that Carlotta was a daughter?

As to why Carlotta was listed as a boarder on the 1871 census, I can only guess that the census taker spoke to Wilmot's husband John Quick, and because he wasn't her father described her relationship as boarder.

The more interesting point is that we have Wilmot Baragwanath travelling out to South Africa as a single lass. She must have gone out in the 1840's since she does not appear on the 1851 census of England. Given Carlotta's birth about 1855, that means Wilmot was out in South Africa for quite a number of years.

The other question that we will never be able to explain is the surnames Wilmot and Carlotta were using.

Carlotta is pretty consistently recorded in the records with the surname of Demory. This would suggest that this was the name she was born under in South Africa.

What is surprising is that when Wilmot returned to Cornwall, she continued to use her maiden name of Baragwanath Given that she was bringing a young child back with her, indeed one that she was acknowledging as her daughter, you would have thought that she would have called herself Demory also.

After all, if she had said that she was married, then widowed in South Africa, it is somewhat unlikely that anyone would have been able to dispute the fact. Unless there were others from the same corner of Cornwall also living and working in Durban who had already fed gossip back to the home village?

I also cannot find Wilmot's sister Mary on the 1851 census. Perhaps she also went out to South Africa?

[Cornish Terrier]

I will take a better look at this shortly - in the meantime:-

Mary Baragwanath married 1856 Truro Dist. to James Dunstan (b c.1821 Truro). Five known children.

Sorry old chum :-

James DUNSTAN
born 10th March 1821 Truro
baptised 22nd April 1821 Lelant
Parents - James DUNSTAN and Mary Nicholas OULD

Married 10th March 1852 Lelant

Mary THOMAS
baptised 25th February 1822 Towednack
Parents - Andrew THOMAS and Ann QUICK

Five children - Mary Thomas, Susanna, James, Andrew Thomas and William T.

There is another James DUNSTAN with a wife Mary in the 1861 Census and he was born at Stithians about 1824 while his wife was born at Wendron.
But I do not know if this was the couple in the marriage of 1856.

Even getting down to a search for 'Mary' (no surname) born Towednack 1821-5 I cannot find Mary Baragwanath in 1861 or 1851.

Hmmm - can't find her in 1841 either - yes I can - by searching on Wilmot born 1797 +/-5 and then trying Willmot I eventyally found them indexed as BARAGAVANETT.

Now Wilmot died in 1850 so I can't try that trick again.

By searching for Richard born about 1785 at Towednack I found the family as 'Barragwanalt' but Mary is not with them.

Don't know where to look now because the name is so long it is extremely difficult to use wildcards and the different ways people spelt it is totally unbelievable.

As far as I can tell Edith Gertrude was still alive and unmarried in 1884 - no sign of death or marriage in FreeBMD to that date.

Can't find any further record of her in FreeBMD at all.

And I just realised that you had missed another child for Richard and Wilmot - son Richard baptised at Towednack 4th January 1829.

BTW - in the 1861 Census Richard BARAGWANATH is aged 75 and a widower.
The Wilmot with him is his 40 year old unmarried daughter and then his grandaughter Carlotta.

That is about all I can do for you for the moment as I had not pursued this family in the past.

I have a box full of Baragwanath printout that I received from John Baragwanath a lot of years ago.
If I get the chance I will try and wade through it to see if I can find some answers.

CT

[gandolf]

CT,

On doing some more checking I guess your knowledge is based on the fact that from what I can see James and Mary (nee Thomas) Dunstan's daughter Mary Thomas Dunstan is the lass who married John Glasson Quick in 1881.

Given your research into the Quicks, I will happily bow to your better knowledge and 'let' James Dunstan remain married to Mary Thomas. That being said, it does raise the question of who was the Mary Baragwanath (or variant) who married a James Dunstan in 1856.

Based on the 1851 census, I can find only three possibilities:
BARAGWANATH Mary Grndau U F 11 Scholar Cornwall - Falmouth Budock
BARAGWANA Mary Dau M F 23 School Mistress Cornwall - Kea Gwennap
BARAGWANATH Mary Dau M F 25 Ship Master's Daur Cornwall - St Ives St. Ives

The first seems too young to be marrying 5 years later.
The third is married, and remains so in 1861.
The second is intriguing since her maiden name is Baragwana, yet she is recorded as married.
Since none of them are the daughter of Richard and Wilmot, I suppose it remains only of academic interest. ;D

Thanks for the info re Richard Baragwanath baptised 1829. I have so far been unable to find baptisms for the rest of Richard and Wilmot Baragwanath's children, and was relying on census records. As Richard does not appear on the census records, that is why I missed him.

As you seem to have access to the later Towednack PRs, are you able to supply baptismal dates for the rest of Richard & Wilmot's children?.

As I cannot find Richard Baragwanath (born 1829) on the 1841 census, it would seem that he probably died before then. If you also have burial records, could you perhaps also check for a burial? For that matter, also check to see whether Mary Baragwanath dies between 1841 & 1851.

Interested to note the variations you were seeing in census records. Presume that you weren't using FreeBDM, since the names are much more standardised there - Baragwanath in 1841, 1851 & 1861.

[gandolf]

Nov 1, 2008 1:47:29 GMT -5 gandolf said:

Question 1:
James & Annie Baragwanath/Bargwanath appear on the 1881 census at Briton Ferrry, Glamorgan, Wales and with their children:
Mary Wilmot Bargwanath born c.1860 at Bridgend, Glamorgan
James Wills Bargwanath born 1866 at Bridgend, Glamorgan
Edgar Bargwanath born 1876 at Bridgend, Glamorgan
Mother Annie is listed as born at Sancreed, Cornwall about 1831.

The only candidate record for Mary Wilmot Baragwanath’s birth that I can find so far is in the BDMs at Lambeth, Surrey, Mar ¼ 1860 – not quite sure that this is correct though?

Although I can’t find her on the 1881 census, I suspect that there was a fourth child given the lack of Baragwanath/Bargwanath families in Wales:
Edith Gertrude Bargwanath born 1864 Dec ¼ Bridgend District, Glamorgan.

I had been unable to locate a marriage for James & Annie Baragwanath in Cornwall, so in desperation I checked Wales. And what I found was:
Dec ¼ 1855 Bridgend Dist./ 11a / 626
James Baragwanath to Nancy Berryman.

The only Nancy Berryman I can find that would fit the age of James’ wife ‘Annie’ is James’ first cousin Nancy Quick Berryman. However, I believe that this must be her, given the second name of Wills for son James – Nancy’s grandmother’s maiden name was Wills, and her father was John Wills Berryman.

Still can't find anything on Edith other than the birth registration.
HOWEVER,

James and Nancy Bargwanath & family moved up to London, probably in the 1880's.
James Bargwanath died age 79 at Lewisham in 1910.
Nancy Bargwanath died age 60 at Woolwich in 1893.
(this would seem to confirm that she was Nancy Quick Berryman born 1832 as mentioned above)

James Wills Bargwanath married 1901 Woolwich to either Ethel Mary Davey or Gertrude Eleanor Leopard.
There is a Wilfred Bargwanath born 1904 at Woolwich, almost certainly their son.

Edgar Bargwanath appears to have married 1907 at Barton upon Irwell, Lancashire to either Mary (May?) Wilkinson or Mary Peers.

[Isambard]

Nov 1, 2008 21:07:06 GMT -5 Cornish Terrier said:

I will take a better look at this shortly - in the meantime:-

Mary Baragwanath married 1856 Truro Dist. to James Dunstan (b c.1821 Truro). Five known children.

Sorry old chum :-

James DUNSTAN
born 10th March 1821 Truro
baptised 22nd April 1821 Lelant
Parents - James DUNSTAN and Mary Nicholas OULD

Married 10th March 1852 Lelant

Mary THOMAS
baptised 25th February 1822 Towednack
Parents - Andrew THOMAS and Ann QUICK

Five children - Mary Thomas, Susanna, James, Andrew Thomas and William T.-------------------------CT

Thanks for saving me a trip down the garden path CT. I was about to find out about this "new" family of Dunstans.

But now that we're discussing Dunstans and James Dunstan b 10 March 1821 Truro; his father was John Dunstan b. abt 1744, Feock, Truro, who married Mary Randall b. abt 1746 St. Mary Truro, on 6 Feb 1775 in St. Mary Truro.

I have yet to find John Dunstan's parentage, also that of Mary Randall's father Thomas Rundle b. abt 1720 Truro, who married Rachel Crossman b. abt Nov 1724 Truro.

Can any alert readers wade in?

[Cornish Terrier]

Some more here that I will attempt to 'wade into' later tonight.

Meanwhile Gandolf - unfortunately I don't have any post-1812 burial records for Towednack.

The baptisms for children of Richard and Wilmot Baragwanath at Towednack:-

Wilmot BARAGWANATH bp. 28th April 1821 (farmer)
Mary BARAGWANATH bp. 10th August 1823 (farmer)
Matthew BARRAGWANATH bp. 29th April 1827 (farmer)
Richard BARRAGWANATH bp. 4th January 1829 (farmer)
James BARRAGWANATH bp. 1st May 1831 (farmer)

That's the lot.

CT

[gandolf]

Thanks for the baptisms CT, all helps fill in the gaps.

Have also realised why you were able to squash my incorrect assignment of James Dunstan's marriage so quickly. Discovered you were looking into the James Dunstan/Mary Thomas marriage earlier this year when I moved onto the next branch of the family

[Cornish Terrier]

But now that we're discussing Dunstans and James Dunstan b 10 March 1821 Truro; his father was John Dunstan b. abt 1744, Feock, Truro, who married Mary Randall b. abt 1746 St. Mary Truro, on 6 Feb 1775 in St. Mary Truro.

Just for clarification - I think there is a generation missing here.

James DUNSTAN born 1821 Truro was son of James DUNSTAN and Mary Nicholas (nee OULD).

James, in turn, was son of John DUNSTAN and Mary (nee RUNDLE).

So it is from here that some ancestry is required and I will take a look at it.

Also worth a mention here are the details of the marriage of John DUNSTAN to Mary RUNDLE.

IGI shows quite a number of entries for this marriage and they can almost equally be divided into two categories.

On the one hand there is the group stating the marriage occurred 6th February 1775

And then there is the group stating the marriage occurred 6th February 1778

There are only two other marriages I can find in IGI where a John DUNSTAN (var.) married someone named Mary.

17th April 1782 John DUNSTONE married Mary TONKIN at Budock

12th October 1794 John DUNSTAN married Mary HOCKING at Budock

As James DUNSTAN used RUNDLE as a middle name for two of h is children there seems to be no problem as which marriage is involved but these last two should perhaps be kept in mind.

I will pursue this in a separate posting to try and save some confusion.

[Cornish Terrier]

Continued.

There are only two other marriages I can find in IGI where a John DUNSTAN (var.) married someone named Mary.

17th April 1782 John DUNSTONE married Mary TONKIN at Budock

12th October 1794 John DUNSTAN married Mary HOCKING at Budock

I will begin with some comment on the two marriages above.

There is no indication in Phillimore that the two marriages might be that of the same John DUNSTAN - i.e. that he may have remarried as a widower.

The second of these can certainly be discounted as having anything to do with the family we are looking at as 1. it occurred only a week before the baptism of James DUNSTAN and 2. we know that James used the name RUNDLE amongst his children.

And I believe we might take the 1782 marriage completely out of contention also.

There is a baptism at Budock 2nd March 1783 for Mary Anne d/o John and Mary DUNSTONE and this is where the marriage to Mary TONKIN occurred.
There are several further baptisms at Budock also to John and Mary.

Based on this I have searched and now have a list of six possible children for John and Mary (nee RUNDLE) DUNSTAN including a baptism in 1783.

And I also think it probable that the marriage was 1778 and NOT 1775.

Here is my chronology:-

John DUNSTAN married Mary RUNDLE
6th February 1778

John DUNSTONE bp. 7th March 1779 Truro
Nicholas DUNSTONE bp. 20th August 1780 Truro
Jenney Tremelling DONSTONE bp. 9th February 1783 Truro
William DUNSTONE bp. 2nd June 1786 Truro
Edward DUNSTON bp. 18th September 1791 St Austell
James DUNSTAN bp. 19th October 1794 St Austell

There may be more children but this looks a reasonble list.

Now - IF I have everything here correct then we may just have a clue to help identify John.

The daughter Jenney Tremelling DONSTONE might be the help we have required.

ISAMBARD - I hope you are nice and relaxed (and tied to your chair ) because unless you have Wills or other evidence to prove me wrong I may be about to rearrange some identities for you. ;D

I decided to make use of the name 'Jenney Tremelling' to see if I could find some parents for John DUNSTAN and came up with something totally different.

My initial search was for a DUNSTAN/TREMELLING marriage and tried using the names John, Nicholas and William to no avail.

So I tried a search for marriages of Jane TREMELLIN ...... and came up with:-

Edward RUNDLE married Jane TREMELLIN 6th July 1740 Truro

In the list of children above you will find EDWARD baptised 1791 at St Austell.

And this might get even better - baptisms at Truro:-

28th November 1740 Susanna RUNDLE d/o Edward and Jane
15th February 1743 Anna Maria RUNDLE d/o Edward and Jane
4th March 1745 Ann RUNDLE d/o Edward and Jane
24th October 1748 Jane RUNDLE d/o Edward and Jane
21st July 1751 Edward RUNDLE s/o Edward and Jane
23rd September 1753 MARY RUNDLE d/o Edward and Jane
19th January 1756 Joanna RUNDLE d/o Edward and Jane
4th June 1759 Edward RUNDLE s/o Edward and Jane

I do believe it might be time to move Thomas and Rachel aside. ;D ;D

But I still haven't found parents for John DUNSTAN.

[Cornish Terrier]

Isambard - Maybe some more good news for you.

I think I may have identified John DUNSTAN for you.

Working from my last note I am now, more than ever, sure that I have the family of John and Mary pretty much settled.

If we look from the RUNDLE side it can be seen that John and Mary have named children after Mary's parents - Jenney Tremelling in 1783 and Edward in 1791.

It therefore follows that John's parents names would be included.
That there was only one daughter that I can find is a slight hindrance but my theory is that one of the other four sons was given the name of John's father.

We therefore have John, Nicholas, William and James (possibly Edward also?) from which to choose.

Further - it is more likely than not that either of the first two sons would have been given the name of John's father.

In that case we are looking at either John or Nicholas.

The first son was obviously named after John himself although that might also have been the name of John's father.

My thought is that John was the son of Nicholas DUNSTAN.

There were a number of John DUNSTANS born around the right time whose father was William or James but ....

And of those with a father John we are looking at Stithians (possible), Rame by Plymouth (doubtful), St Erth (possible), Falmouth (possible but right near Budock), or Perranaworthal (Hmmmmm.).

There was one at Feock but his father was Peter so I am prepared to discount him even though Feock is supposedly were John was from at the time of his marriage.

Of all the above I think Perranarworthal the more likely but one John was baptised in 1732 and the other in 1756.

But now let's look at NICHOLAS.

There are two possibilities:-

John DUNSTONE bp. 22nd June 1753 at Mawnan s/o Nicholas and Prudence (children also baptised at Wendron)

Mawnan is right down on the Lizard Peninsula (and I can find no marriage) and I think much less likely than this next one.

John DUNSTAN bp. 30th June 1751 at Perranarworthal s/o Nicholas and Elizabeth

I believe this is the man you are looking for and I think the following will support that.

Geographically we have Perranarworthal with Stithians immediately to the West and FEOCK immediately to the East so we are in the right territory.

Nicholas DUNSTONE married Elizabeth MARTIN 16th July 1744 at Stithians

According to IGI he was baptised at Stithians in 1719 s/o John and Mary but I still need to investigate that.

Children for Nicholas and Elizabeth:-

Blanch DONSTAN bp. 26th February 1745 Stithians (mother not named)
Mary DONSTONE bp. 26th December 1749 Stithians (mother not named)
JOHN DUNSTAN bp. 30th June 1751 Perranarworthal
James DUNSTONE bp. 25th June 1754 FEOCK
William DUNSTONE bp. 15th August 1756 FEOCK
Nicholas DUNSTONE bp. 10th June 1759 FEOCK

Without searching every surrounding Parish these are all I can find but, as you can see, they moved into FEOCK around 1750 and seemed to remain there.

And as John was of that Parish when he married (I presume that is the entry in the PR) then I believe this is the man who married Mary RUNDLE.

In IGI there seem to be only two realistic possibilities for this Nicholas:-

20th June 1710 Nicholes DUNSTONE s/o Anne baptised at Perranarworthal

15th September 1719 Nicklus DONSTON s/o John and Mary baptised at Stithians

A couple of entries in IGI show the 1744 marriage of Nicholas with the baptism date of 1719 but I do not know if that is based on any evidence other than the fact that it just happened to be the 'favoured' 25 years before the marriage!

On the other hand (and assuming the two baptisms at Stithians with no mother named belong to this Nicholas) the name Blanch can be found numerous times at Stithians in the early part of the 1700's and this includes a 1704 baptism of Blanch d/o John and Mary.

A couple of Wills would be very handy to help tie all this together but I am confident I have identified the family for you. ;D

BTW - I can find nothing at all in IGI that would help us any further with Edward RUNDLE.

Will await your comments with interest.

CT

[Isambard]

CT, many thanks! You've given me something to chew on later, after I decompress from watching the U.S. election results roll in. Go Obama go! Go McCain go! Much more interesting than our recent Canadian federal elections.

[Cornish Terrier]

You are welcome my friend.

Although not 100% certain of everything I am reasonably (but quietly) confident of my findings.

And I must say that I feel enormously satisfied with the results of my work.

Look forward to your next.

CT