William & Johanna Davies/Davis Help!!

[amyjopet]

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if anyone could help me out on a little problem I came across:

In my Davis/Davies Family tree chart, some of my information came from my own research, some came from a Trevor Davies (of St. Ives deceased father's research), some came for a John Davies of Truro, who is also now deceased and some came from a Harold Davis of Australia research. (who I believe is now also deceased.)

My problem lies with the family of William Davis and Johanna (Woolcock) Davis.
According the the information that I received from Harold, he has that William and Johanna had the following children:
William b. 1840 died young
John b. 1841
Johanna b. 1842
William b. 1845
Thomas b. 1847
Peter b. 1850
Anthony b. 1855
Robert b. 1859

Recently I was in touch with a descendant from the John b. 1841 line, but he wanted to know where I found my info in regards to John being part of William and Johanna's children, since he's been researching and has never came across anything to make this accurate.

When I double checked thru the charts that I received from my other two sources, they do not have the John b. in 1841 on their list. With Harold no longer being around, I have no way of finding out where he received this info.

I'm wondering if anyone can find anything in regards to this John b. 1841 either in Baptism records, Marriage records, Census records and wills in trying to make sure this entry is accurate.

I thank everyone in advance for any and all help in this problem of mine.
Thanks, Amy Vander Kelen

[trencrom]

Helo amy,
Which parish was the family resident in?

[amyjopet]

I believe just in St. Ives.

[Mal]

Re William Davies of Bosworgy d.1690. I have visited his tomb in St Erth and have some photos if you want. The arms are a chevron betwixt three mullets pierced. The chevron has a small crescent in the middle at the upper point. The blazon is divided in two with arms of Noye, three crosslets diagonal top left to bottom right. Their is a helmet and a lamb bearing a christian banner. This might indicate a connection to the mariner's right of freemasonry. There are no coloures but the blazon should be gules (red) on the Davies side and blue on the Noye side. The motto was, I believe, VIRTU FUNERA SUPERAT. I have noticed a similar blazon on a Davies shield of Robert Davies, Northants and also a Davie of Massachussets. This might indicate a connection.


Below is some early St Erth information I have gathered
The Saint Erth register commences in 1563 so much earlier than that will be tricky.
Edmond Davy baptised/b.9th Oct 1580 also given as Edward – son of Edmond.
Elenor (Ellinor) Davy c.10 Jan 1583 marries John James on 11 Feb 1612 at St Erth.
. Elenor is noted as daughter of Edmund Davie
These names seem to appear in the burial lists for St Erth in the 1600's.
A Michael Davie marries on the Nov 2 1595 at St Erth
An Anthonye Davie marries Agnes on 8 August 1563


St Erth Baptism
There is the baptism of Elnr(?) Davies daughter of Anthony in 1563 (last of Jan (?) and then an Elnor daughter of Edmond on the 10th Jan 1583. Perhaps they were cousins?
Scandal- Margaret Davie base child of Ellnor is baptised 14th Jan 1603.
Arthur Davie son of Edwarde is baptised June 2nd 1606
Thomas Davie son of Edwarde is baptised August 6th 1609
Jane Davie daughter of Edward is baptised 27th Feb 1613
Davie ??th (son) son Edward is baptised 6th March 1616.
Davye Thomas son of Edmond is baptised 21st Feb 1618
Davis Mary son of Edward is baptised 5th March 1620
Gilbert Davie son of Edward is baptised 30th May 1623
Elonder Davie daughter of Edward is baptised 12th August 1627

Davy Amye daughter of William is baptised 13th Jul 1634
At this point the name Edward/Edmond stops and William Davy apears as father on the St Erth lists.

There is a marriage between another Edmond Davie and Jane at Ludgvan 10 Sept 1568

Several Edmond Davies are mentioned in the Parish of St Erth. The dates are confusing and seem to overlap.
(Mrs) Edmond Davy female birth c.1558 St Erth
St Erth burial Edmunde Davie 05-Oct 1614
Edmond Davy
Gender: Male Birth: About 1554 Of, Saint Erth, Cornwall, England
Mrs. Edmond Davy
Gender: Female Birth: About 1558 Of, Saint Erth, Cornwall, England
Edmond Davy
Gender: Male Christening: 09 OCT 1580 Saint Erth, Cornwall, England

_____________

Hope some of that helps.

[donne]

Hi amy,
I can't find the family in the 1841 census, but they are easy to find on FreeCEN both for 1851 and 1861.

In 1861, William and Joanna DAVIS were living in Teetotal Row (great address!), St Ives, along with children William (16), Thomas (14), Anthony (5) and Robert (1). In 1851 they are listed as DAVIES at the same address with children Johanna (8), William (6), Thomas (4) and Peter (1). You would think that John would have been listed at least for 1851 when he would have been just 10 years old, although I have come across instances where children have been living with relatives if the family grows too large for their accommodation.

Does your correspondent have any alternative family line for John b. 1841?

[londoner]

If you like Teetotal St you'll love Salubrious Place, just round the corner from Virgin Street!

[Mal]

Aug 19, 2008 15:55:26 GMT -5 donne said:

Hi amy,
I can't find the family in the 1841 census, but they are easy to find on FreeCEN both for 1851 and 1861.

In 1861, William and Joanna DAVIS were living in Teetotal Row (great address!), St Ives, along with children William (16), Thomas (14), Anthony (5) and Robert (1). In 1851 they are listed as DAVIES at the same address with children Johanna (8), William (6), Thomas (4) and Peter (1). You would think that John would have been listed at least for 1851 when he would have been just 10 years old, although I have come across instances where children have been living with relatives if the family grows too large for their accommodation.

Does your correspondent have any alternative family line for John b. 1841?

Just a thought....
Is there any chance that someone along the line has mixed up Johanna with John... misprint, error of transcription. Johanna would have been born around 1842/3, which may have led to the confusion in the first place. On the other hand, is Johanna perhaps John? Hmmmm

[myghaelangof]

I have just searched ancestry for the 1851 and 1861 censii, looking for any John born 1838-1842 from Cornwall. Nothing that remotely resembles Davi(e)s. I always check the 'strange' names as well. For example, one John Bonse, turned out to be John Rouse.

Can anyone find John Davis on the gro for his birth?
Mike

[cornishmaid]

Well Malcolm, if somewhere along the line someone mixed up Johanna with John, then my 3rd great grandmother is now my 3rd great grandfather

Johanna was born on 5 June 1842 in St Ives. Although she does look rather manly, I'm qute sure she was a girly ;D

Still searching for John's birth on the GRO Indexes Mike. The census returns say he was born in the Penzance district, but we can't seem to find any births for him in that area in the right timescale. I will try and view the original index as soon as I can to try and find him... unless someone can find the elusive chappie beforehand.

[Cornish Terrier]

Well - I'm back just 5 minutes ( ) and I've already found them in the 1841 Census.

Problem is that I don't know whether this information will help or hinder the cause.

It 'may' help by process of elimination but ...

1841 Census
St Ives FOLIO 19 Page 2

Back Road

Hanna DAVIS, 20, In County
William do., 1, In County

That's all and there ain't no more!

Now - is this helpful or does it hinder us all just that little bit more.

We are trying to determine whether William and Johanna had a son named John so let's see what facts we have.

I have just checked online and now have the dates that all the Census from 1841 to 1891 were taken.

Circa 1839/40 - son William born (1841 Census age 1)

June 6th 1841 - Census taken

June 5th 1842 - daughter Johanna born at St Ives (Cornishmaid)

In FreeBMD the only John DAVIS born in the period 1840-1844 at Penzance RD was in the September Qtr of 1844.

The nearest John DAVIES in that period was born in the Redruth RD iin the March Qtr of 1840.

This last fellow can be discounted as a child of William and Johanna given the likely birth date of the first child William.

Likewise the 1844 fellow can probably be discounted because the second William was born about 1844/5 according to the 1851 Census.
In fact, according to FreeBMD, William was born in the September Qtr of 1844 also.

A Question - Could John and William have been twins?

Given the information already produced here I would say the answer is a definite NO.

By all accounts John was definitely born about 1841/2.

If he were a son of William and Johanna we know he could not have been born in 1842 because we know daughter Johanna's birthdate.
And he was not born before June of 1841 or he would have been in the Census with his mother given he could only have been a few months old.

Given William and Johanna were married in August of 1839 I should think John is hanging by a very thin (and rapidly weakening) thread. ;D

If William was born within a month or so of the marriage (not unusual) then we might just squeeze John in but .... he still does not appear in the Census!

The only way John could be part of this family and born about 1841 would be if he were born sometime after June 6th 1841 and (I should think) definitely no later than August of that same year.

Still searching for John's birth on the GRO Indexes Mike. The census returns say he was born in the Penzance district, but we can't seem to find any births for him in that area in the right timescale.

Guess what! - Can't find William in 1839 or 1840 either.

I suggest that if we have not found John (or William for that matter) yet with several of us having searched then it is probable we are not going to find a record of his birth in the GRO.

Do not be overly concerned about that as it was not unknown for this to happen.

I have a Christopher Trewhella for whom I could find no record of Birth. I knew approximately when and where he was born from the Census and other records but could not find a birth record.

What I did find was his Baptism.

So I would suggest some effort be put in to searching the Parish Registers for some record of him - and that may well mean searching all the little Chapel Registers as well.

One further point I will make.

Although the old and familiar 'naming pattern' was well and truly on the wane by this time - IF John were to be a son of William and Johanna he would have to have been the second child and that begs a question.

Who was he named for.

By my records there is no sign of a John in the family of William or of Johanna.

I think John is rapidly drifting away from the ship me hearties. ;D

Back to the Census for a moment.

As William was a 'fisherman' he was probably at sea at the time of the Census which would explain his non-appearance.

Amy and Cornishmaid - I copied that Census page to my hard drive so will send a copy to each of you as an email attachment.

CT

[cornishmaid]

I fully concur with your findings CT, and am also of the opinion that this particular John Davies, b. 1841c. is not the son of William Davies and (Jo)Hannah Woolcock.

I've listed below their children with relevant dates in case it helps:

William Davis, born c 1840, died 4th Qtr 1843
Johanna Davis, born 5 June 1842, married William Rowe in St Ives on 23 April 1860, died 22 February 1929
William Davis, born c. 1845, married Lizzie Couch, died in 1902
Thomas Davis, born c.1847, married Mary Ann Blair Cocking
Peter Davis, born 1850, died November 1851
Anthony Woolcock Davis, born 10 June 1855, married Fanny Quick on 12 May 1878, died 29 April 1946, Crystal Falls, MI
Robert Davis, born 1859, married Alice Perkin on 10 June 1878 in St Ives

More corroborative points to suggest John wasn't their child:

I have looked back through a few Davis generations and none of the children were named John.

John's marriage to Ellen Bramble in 1865 lists his father as William Davies, Labourer. Throughout all the births and marriages of his children, the William Davis in St Ives is listed as a Fisherman/Mariner.

All the census returns for John and Ellen states that John was born in Penzance and not St Ives.

Now we just have to find out who John's mother was, and when and where he was baptised. There is already a thread regarding John I think, so will update that with a few bits of information as soon as I can.