Possible Curnow/Rosewall connection

[gandolf]

While working through the Rosewall family (James Rosewall of Towednack c.1618 - 1680 and his children Andrew, James and Mary) I found a reference that is intriguing.

Andrew Rosewall married Mary Stevens 1761 at St. Ives. Amongst his children are:
Margery Rosewall chr. 1664 St. Ives, mar. 1689 Towednack to Michael Curnow.
Wllmot Rosewall chr. 1670 St. Ives, mar. 1693 Towednack to Robert Curnow.

Robert and Michael Curnow were brothers, the sons of Robert Curnow (c.1618 - 1685) and his wife Catherine Painter.

Robert Curnow (c.1618 - 1685) was as noted in other posts, the son of Thomas Curnow (c.1570 - 1643) and his wife Catherine. From what I have seen, no-one has as yet been able to identify who Catherine was.

The question for others to consider is this:

When Robert Curnow made his will in 1685, he names in his various bequests a couple items identifed with the Rosewall name - his son Michael receiving a "pan called Rosewall pan, crock called Rosewall's crock".

This would indicate that the items involved originally belonged to the Rosewall family.

Now, as the pan and crock were worthy of being bequeathed by Robert Curnow to his son, it seems to me that it would be equally reasonable that Robert might have received them as a bequest (either informally - gift from family member, or via a will).

There is clear evidence for the Rosewall family at Rosewall Hill near Towednack from the early 1600's with James Roswall born around 1618 almost certainly from that area. However I can't find anything about his parents at this time.

What I am wondering is whether Catherine, wife of Thomas Curnow might actually have been Catherine Rosewall. It would make sense, since if she inherited the pan and crock from her parents, and these were then passed to her son Robert they could well have become known as the Rosewall crock and pan.

Since Thomas and Catherine Curnow were having children between 1595 and 1620, IF the possibility of Catherine being a Rosewall is correct it would likely make her an aunt of James Rosewall (c.1618 - 1680).

The other reason that this theory might be plausible is that it would make Robert and Michael Curnow 1st cousins once removed to their respective spouses Margery and Willmot Rosewall. And of course, cousin marriages were not unusual at all. (Wrong - that should be 2nd cousins once removed!)

What do others think? Am I reading too much into a couple of words in one will?

Peter

[newlyn]

I'm not sure which Catherine you were meaning but Thomas Curnow, his Catherine was possibly Catherine Martin
b. 23/1/1588 in Blisland and d. 1635 in Towednack.

Catherine Painter from what I can gather was born in St Erth 22/6/1632.

Catherine Martin seems a bit young to be having children
in 1595.

Newlyn

[trencrom]

Some interesting observations here. I remember reading about Rosewall's crock and pan when persuing Robert's will.

Now bequests of pans and/or crocks were pretty typical of seventeenth century wills, so nothing unusual there, but giving them such names does strike me as unusual (do other posters agree??).

As far as I know the parentage of Catherine, wife of Thomas Curnow has not been ascertained, so Gandolf's suggestion could well be possible. Then again, the maiden name of the wife of Peter Painter (Robert's father-in-law) has not been identifued either. Could she have been a Rosewall? Or is the explanation for the names nothing to do with family connections? Did the Rosewalls simply sell some surplus kitchen items to their Curnow neighbours in Towednack? :-)

Are there any Rosewall wills from before 1685 which might mention, or hint at, a Curnow connection?

Trencrom

[trencrom]

A couple of other questions:
Newlyn: can you give us some more information as to on what grounds has Catherine (wife of Thomas) been proposed as a Martin? I ask this as I personally have not heard that suggestion hitherto.
I know that a later Thomas married a Joan Martin. Martins were living in Towednack and nearby in the mid-1600s. There is a thread on this surname elsewhere in the forum.
However I don't know of any evidence for her (Catherine wife of Thomas) having been married before 1595. So I don't see a problem with a circa 1588 christening regardless of who she was.

Trencrom

[newlyn]

I can give you no more information regarding Catherine Martin at present.

Blisland is approx. 5 miles from Bodmin, different area of Cornwall than Towednack, St Ives.

When and if I can find out any more information I will let you know.

Newlyn

[davidkingmartin]

Newlyn: There are Curnows associated with "my" Martin/Towednack line, but I find it all a little confusing. (See the Curnow threads on this Forum).
Thomas Curnow bap.24 Nov. 1588 St Keverne, died Nov.1643 Towednack, Married Catherine 1612, Towednack. I have her down as a possible Martin, b1592?, buried 7 May 1635 Towed.
One of the children: Thomas buried 26 Dec. 1686 Towed., m. 26 Oct. 1680, Towed. Joan died 1686.
Another child: Robert d.27 Jun. 1685, m. Catherine Painter (1632-1708).

Also: a Catherine Curnow 1679-1760 m. in 1702 John Martin. He died 3 Feb. 1730. Catherine is daughter of John 1603-`86 and of Mary Baragwanath (1608-`86 or `87). John is a brother of the aforementioned Thomas (d.1686).

I have an isolated "note" saying: Catherine Curnow b.1635 m. John Thomas 12.12.1658, Ludgvan .Catherine and John had 5 children.

David.

[newlyn]

Hello to Gandolf, Trencrom and David,

There isn't any more evidence of Catherine Martin being Thomas Curnows wife.
I have looked at a piece of writing by Bill Curnow who is the
co-ordinator of the Curnow Family Tree and it seems that they are still delving into Catherines surname.
The Curnow tree does have 35 thousand descendants of Thomas and Catherine and many other Curnows which may answer other queries about the name and throw up new ones!

Newlyn

[gandolf]

Oops, indeed double oops.

Not only did I overlook an obvious alternative scenario for a possible connection for transmission of the Rosewall crock etc into the Curnows, but unintentionally re-ignited a debate on Thomas Curnow and his wife Catherine (family still to be confirmed).

Although I have now caught up on the discussions in other threads, not having the background on the family to be able to offer useful additions, I will leave alone the debate about Catherine's family name and likely dates of birth for her and Thomas Curnow. All I will say is that I was basing my information about dates, etc on some work by Zenobia (who I have found to be consistantly reliable in her research) rather than my own research.

Trencom exposed my blindness as to another source for the Rosewall crock and pan, which on consideration is possibly more likely than my initial thoughts.

By the way, I agree that while crocks and pans are regularly mentioned as bequests in wills, it is rare for items such as these to be noted with qualifiers such as a family name - more usual to see a reference to "my best pan".

As Trencom pointed out, Robert Curnow's mother-in-law Jane, wife of Peter Painter has not yet had her family identified.

Zenobia records that Peter Painter/Paynter married 26 Nov 1631 at St. Erth to Jane (surname not recorded). Peter Painter died 1671 at Towednack, and Jane Painter died 1678 at Towednack.

Given a marriage in 1631, both Peter and Jane were likely born between 1600 and 1610.

Now, with James Rosewall of Towednack born circa 1618, this puts Peter Painter's wife Jane of about the same generation.

The possibility therefore exists that Jane was perhaps an older sister of James, possibly born around 10 years earlier (say between 1607 and 1610).

If this was the case, it will still allow for Robert Curnow to have aquired the Rosewall crock and pan via inheritance, although in this case through his wife Catherine Painter, via her mother.

The only issue at first glance is, if they came in via his wife, why is Robert dispersing the goods when his wife is still living? Property law would explain it.

Even though Catherine (Painter) Curnow died in 1708, twenty years after Rober Curnow, property law of the time would have allowed him to disperse the crock and pan, since anything belonging to a married woman became the property of her husband. (Some exceptions to this in the case of land, which often only was able to be used by the husband, while still remaining the wife's inheritance.)

Other than the discussion (dispute?) as to the origin of Thomas Curnow's wife Catherine, the reason I am now leaning to the connection perhaps being through Peter Painter's wife Jane, is that it actually neatens up the potential relationship of Robert Curnow's sons to the Rosewall daughters.

In my original post, I had Robert and Michael Curnow as potentially 1st cousins once removed to Willmot and Margery Rosewall. On rechecking the relationship I realise that the proposed relationship should have been 2nd cousins once removed.

IF (and it is still a big if at the moment), Peter Painter's wife Jane was a Rosewall, and likewise if she was a sibling of James Rosewall then the relationship of the Curnow boys to the Rosewall girls becomes much more straightforward.

The Curnow boys would have been straighforward 2nd cousins to the Rosewall girls, a not uncommon relationship in marriages of that (and indeed more recent) eras.

Again, as I said in my original post, a lot to read into two words in one will!

[gandolf]

On the subject of the origins of Catherine, wife of Thomas Curnow.

I note that there is a will (which I presume others were previously aware of) of a John Curnow of St. Martin-in-Menage who died 1606.

Although St. Martin is in Kerrier, his brother Thomas Curnow of Towednack - likely the Thomas above, husband of Catherine - obtains administraton of the estate.

This would seem to provide good support for placing Thomas' birth in that part of the world, and St. Keverne (which I have seen recorded as Thomas's birthplace) is only a couple of miles away to the east.

Of course it doesn't sort out Catherine, but having her born also in that part of the world is not out of the question.

[gandolf]

One last thought before calling it a night.

If indeed Thomas Curnow was from Kerrier, it is not unreasonable that his wife Catherine also originated there as suggested by others.

That being the case, it would strengthen the possibility that Jane, wife of Peter Painter was the potential Rosewall connection that passed down the Rosewall crock and pan through her daughter Catherine to son-in-law Robert Curnow.

[trencrom]

This all getting very intriguing! :-)

The Penwith Painters --assuming that they were all members of the one family -- were originally a St Erth family but they appear in Towednack from memory prior to Peter's marrying Jane, and while the first couple of Peter and Jane's children were christened in St Erth their family was later resident in Towednack. Was that because the wife's family was there, or was it the husband's? (If both then why a wedding at St Erth?)

Part of the problem is that we don't know exactly how Peter is related to the other contemporary Penwith Painters. If we did, that might clarify part of the situation for us.

If, as you suggest, the crock and pan came to Robert's family by inheritance, if Catherine came from Kerrier and not from the Towednack area then that would make Jane the most likely candidate for being the prior owner of these items.

Incidentally I agree that Thomas Curnow came from Kerrier. You might have seen my post from last year on the Curnow board dealing with the subject of his origins.

Trencrom

[gandolf]

Hi Trencom

Can't really offer anything on the Paynter/Painter family at this time, as my knowledge of it is limited to what I have found out while exploring the possibilities with the Rosewall's.

Maybe down the track if I get some time (wishfull thinking I know ;D ) I will have a look at them.

Or perhaps another member with more knowledge of the family can assist?

Meantime, I have been exploring the early Holla/Hollow family possibilities similar to that with the Rosewalls. Have a look at the relevant post in the "Uslea Cock w/o William Holla" thread on the Zennor board.

[gandolf]

As for the comment about Thomas Curnow being from Kerrier, yes it was probably from your post that I took that information.

Peter

[gandolf]

Now to add some further confusion to the Rosewall/Curnow/Pai(y)nter interconnections. ;D

While attempting to further sort out the Roswall family (see post Rosewall Family - More possible connections on the St. Ives board) I came across the following marriage:
Thomas Rosewall m.18 Nov 1674 St. Ives to Jone Paynter

We had been discussing the possibility of having a Rosewall/Pai(y)nter connection in that Jane Pai(y)nter, wife of Robert Curnow. Jane's parents were Peter Pai(y)nter and Jane. Because of the Rosewall crock and pan, I had suggested Peter Painter's wife Jane may have been a Rosewall.

Well there is a definate another connection between the two families, albeit a generation or two later. While no means conclusive, given the tendancy to keep marrying back into related families it lends a slight bit of support to the possibility of Peter Painter's wife Jane being a Rosewall.

[Cornish Terrier]

Old discussions being livened up again I see! ;D

My two bobs worth yet to be composed and published but I will offer a thought regarding the Paynters.

About 10 years ago I made a 'valiant' attempt to try and sort out the Painter/Paynter families and, in part, think I had some success. (But all of that for another day.)

At that time I came to the tentative conclusion that Peter Painter was probably the son of John PAYNTER and Mary (nee BORLASE) and then grandson of George CAMBORNE and Ann (nee ANTRON) as shown in the Paynter Pedigree.

I will need to dig out all my paperwork on that family and take another look at it so as to recall how I came to my conclusion.