Arthur or Martha ???

[Cornish Terrier]

Okay everyone let's all get confused together.

Whilst working on the Quick family of St Ives I have happened across a couple who don't seem to know whether they are 'Arthur or Martha'.

i.e. - recorded in one document as Male, in another as Female and in at least one where they begin being recorded as Female but that is crossed out to amend the record to Male.

I will start with a marriage at St Ives and work the scenario from there.

13 Dec 1868 by Licence
James Kernick 46 widower Commercial traveller of Horfield, County of Gloucester (Father: James Kernick, Mineral agent)
Michal Pearce Quick 42 widow of St. Ives (Father: William Tonkin, Shipwright)
Witnesses: Jas. S. Quick, Mary J. Hocking

A search of FreeBMD for the marriage of Michal Pearce Tonkin produced:-

Penzance R.D. December Qtr 1848 vol 9 page 299

William Richards QUICK
Michael Pearce TONKIN

(I will get to William Richards Quick a little later - and that is equally confusing )

1841 Census - St Ives

Fore Street
William TONKIN, 40, ship builder
Elizabeth do., 45
William do., 15, shipwright's apprentice
Elizabeth do., 15
Michael do., 14 ** (female crossed out and replaced as male)
Grace do., 10
John do., 2
Michael do., 65, ind. ** (female crossed out and replaced as male)

Michael TONKIN, 35, shipwright
Grace do., 35
Michael do., 12 (male)
Frances do., 10
Ann do., 7
William do., 5
Richard do., 1

1851 Census - St Ives

Fore Street
Wm TONKIN, head, mar, 53, shipwright, St Ives
Elizabeth do., wife, mar, 56, St Ives
Grace do., daur, daur, 20, St Ives
John S do., son, 12, St Ives

Skidden Hill
Michael P TONKIN, head, mar, 47, shipwright, St Ives
Grace do., wife, mar, 45, St Ives
Frances do., daur, 20, St Ives
Ann Try do., daur, 17, St Ives
William do., son, 14, scholar, St Ives
Richard S do., son, 11, scholar, St Ives
Edwin do., son, 8, scholar, St Ives
?? ?? do., son, 4, scholar, St Ives

Warren
Michael QUICK, head, wid., 24, seaman's widow, St Ives
Kate do., daur, 1, St Ives
Elizabeth TONKIN, sister, unm, 26, St Ives

1861 Census - St Ives

Chapel Lane, Fore Street
William TONKIN, head, mar, 63, ship carpenter, Portreath
Elizabeth do., wife, mar, 67, Portreath
John S do., son, unm, 21, ship carpenter, Portreath
Michal P QUICK, daur, wid, 34, dressmaker, Portreath
Kate do., g'daur, 11, Portreath
Grace S PENBERTHY, daur, mar, 30, sailor's wife, Portreath
Grace S do., g'daur, 8mths, Portreath
William STEVENS, lodger, widr., 65, superannuated Coast Guard, Portreath


Findings from IGI:-

William TONKIN, shipwright married Michael Pearce FRY at St Ives 25th September 1796 (Phillimore)

William s/o William and Michal Tonkin bp. 7th January 1798 St Ives
Michael Pearce d/o William and Michal Tonkin bp. 22nd April 1804 St Ives

Michael P Tonkin born about 1804 married Grace (possibly Stevens) and his age and birthplace coincide very, very neatly with the FEMALE Michael Pearce Tonkin bp. 1804 at St Ives.

Cannot seem to find Michael in 1861 but I am having all sorts of trouble again.

Nevertheless - that should probably suffice on the Tonkin side for now.

And now I come to WILLIAM RICHARDS QUICK.

This, in part, has a little bit to do with the mysterious James and Jane family.

I have four William Richards Quicks in my database.
There is at least one later on but he would take no part in this scenario.
And I do not know any earlier than the four I have:-

1. bp. 2nd July 1822 Mevagissey s/o Benedict and Kitty

2. bp. 3rd September 1828 St Ives s/o Paul and Hannah

3. bp. 7th July 1839 Paul s/o Richard and Lucy Ann

4. bp. 3rd November 1849 Paul s/o Richard and Lucy Ann

Obviously the last two are out of the marriage equation but they do play a small part in proceedings.

Deaths for William Richards Quick (from FreeBMD):-

1848 March Qtr Penzance Dist. vol 9 page 170

1854 September Qtr Penzance Dist. vol 5c page 175

The first of these cannot be the husband of Michal Pearce Tonkin as that marriage did not take place until the December Qtr.
And this particular William Richards Quick was the first of that name born to Richard and Lucy Ann Quick at Paul - he was buried at Paul at the age of 9. (Paul Online Parish Registers)

The second also cannot be the husband of Michal Pearce Tonkin because she was already a widow by the time of the 1851 Census.

He is also not the second son of that name to Richard and Lucy Ann Quick as that particular fellow appears with his parents in the 1861 Census.

The Questions:-

Just who was the William Richards Quick who married Michal Pearce Tonkin?

Will the PR give us any clues as to his identity?

Who was the William Richards Quick who died in 1854 and how old was he?

When and where did the mysterious Groom die? - I would think probably at sea and hence no Death Record.

Any questions or comments will be most welcome but what would be of even greater use to me is - HEEELLLLLPPPPP!!!!!

;D

[Deleted]

CT

With reference to William Richards Quick. I note that his widow Michael was living at Warren in the 1851 census with her daughter Kate. In the 1841 census William, son of Benedict Quick and Kitty RICHARDS was also living at Warren and he was recorded as being a sailor's apprentice. Would an educated guess suggest that this is the William Richards you are referring to?

In the 1868 marriage for Michael P Quick, widow, I note that one of the witnesses was James S Quick. Benedict and Kity also had a son called James (I think he married Mary NINNIS).

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

Some more findings.

Have checked IGI for anything about Michael Pearce FRY and found no result so tried searching for TRY.

Michael PEARSE or TRY bp. 21st March 1773 at St Ives daughter of Ann TRY

The marriage of William TONKIN to Michael Pearce FRY (as it appears in Phillimore) cannot be found in IGI.

In fact, no marriage for a William TONKIN appears in IGI for 1796.

Your reference to William Richards Quick at Warren is correct and he was the son of Benedict and Kitty as outlined in my first posting on this subject.

The query is, though, was it this fellow who married Michael Pearce Tonkin or was it the son of Paul and Hannah Quick.

Also, Benedict and Kitty did have a son named James who married Mary Ninnis but there is no indication anywhere to suggest he had a second Christian name.

The witness to the later marriage was James S Quick as you have noted.

This will be James Stevens Quick.

I have only found evidence of one person of this name so far and I believe this witness to have been the uncle of William Richards Quick and, therefore, brother of Benedict.

This being the case (I had not looked at this in its context) it would certainly suggest that the man who married Michal Pearce Tonkin was indeed the son of Benedict and Kitty.

I would like some further corroborative evidence to support this but will update my database accordingly.

Nice work mate.

[Cornish Terrier]

And just a little bit more to add to the scenario.

Ref the parents of Michael Pearce Tonkin - William and Elizabeth.

There is a suggestion now that Elizabeth may have been Elizabeth STEVENS.

I have checked for the birth of their youngest son and the result offers the clue.

In the 1841 Census he is recorded as John Tonkin age 2.

In the 1851 Census he is recorded as John S Tonkin age 12.

FreeBMD offers two candidates both born in 1839 - John SMITH Tonkin and John STEVENS Tonkin.

I have just found the marriage for John STEVENS Tonkin at St Ives in 1867 where he is recorded as son of William Tonkin, shipwright - so this is our man.

He married Jane Hodge Gyles (d/o John Gyles, master mariner) but I cannot, unfortunately, find out any more about her just now because everytime I try to access ancestry.co.uk to check the Census records it freezes on my and I can get no response. (This happened all day Friday as well.)

Well - it is locking up on the 1841 and 1851 Census anyway.
I just found her in 1861 as a Neice to John and Jane HAIN at St Ives.

Another hint that Elizabeth Tonkin may have been a Stevens can be found in the 1861 Census (as posted).

Daughter Grace is now Grace S PENBERTHY and the only Grace Tonkin I can find marryig a Penberthy prior to the 1861 Census is Grace Stevens Tonkin who married William Penberthy at Cardiff, Wales, in 1855.

Also in 1861 a William STEVENS, 65, widower, is 'lodging' with William and Elizabeth Tonkin and I would suggest the possibility that he was a brother to Elizabeth.

To the Stevens in a moment.

In 1868 (see previous) Michal Pearce QUICK, widow, married James KERNICK.

I have just found her death in FreeBMD:-

Deaths JUN 1880
Michael Pearce KERNICK 53 Bristol 6a 17

Now to see what I can find on STEVENS that might be of help.

As stated there are several indications that William Tonkin's wife may have been a STEVENS.

Elizabeth was age 67 in 1851 so therefore born about 1793 or 1794.
William (lodging in 1851) was then 65 and so born about 1795 or 1796.

Using those two indicators I can find only the following at St Ives which match the criteria:-

Elizabeth STEVENS bp. 13th July 1794 d/o John and Elizabeth
William STEVENS bp. 21st February 1796 s/o John and Elizabeth

Other possible inclusions in this family:-

James bp. 26th November 1780
Elizabeth bp. 25th May 1783
William bp. 1st May 1785
Mary bp. 16th March 1788
John bp. 6th March 1791 bu. 15th February 1799
Grace bp. 3rd July 1798

The two candidates for John and Elizabeth are:-

John STEPHENS, t., m. Elizabeth PENBERTHY 9th November 1773 St Ives

He was part of the Stevens family of Trevalgan, St Ives, and had five children that I am aware of up until 1785.

John STEVENS, cordwainer, m. Elizabeth PEARCE 14th February 1787 St Ives

This is the couple I believe are involved here and take particular notice of the fact there is a daughter named GRACE.

That's all for now folks.

[mikestrad]

I am a descended from Michael Pearce TONKIN b1829 St Ives. Not sure where this thread is/was going but for what it is worth these are some of my records relating to some of the names mentioned.

The "FRY" is as far as I have found is indeed "TRY" Unfortunate for web searches - I never realised how many times try comes up in text.

My first TRY is George TRY who married Prudence COADE 08 Sep 1707 in ST Ives They had 6 children one of whom was Thomas TRY who married Honor ? around 1746. They had 5 children one of whom was Ann TRY 17 Sep 1749. Ann had an illegitimate child Michal Pearce TRY. I have not identified the father and have not found any Bastardy Order, however the naming is unusual. The child was shown in the Parish Register as a male child (assume the vicar thought the name was Michael not Michal. The record was then corrected to show female ) I assumed therefore that the naming was an attempt to identify the father which seems likely to be a Michael PEAR(S)CE. The likely candidate is a St Ives man, Michael PEARCE b13 Jun 1747. I have NO proof of this but it is a reasonable working assumption unless anyone has any other leads.

Anyway Michal Pearce TRY b25 Mar 1773 married Willam TONKIN on 25 Sep 1796 in St Ives and they had 2 known children Michael Pearce TONKIN b22 Apr 1804 (the name michael pearce continuing down the line) and William Henry TONKIN b07 Jan 1798.

Michael Pearce TONKIN married Grace STEVENS 26 Jun 1828 in St Ives and they had 7 children including Michael Pearce TONKIN b06 Mar 1829. This Michael Pearce TONKIN was my great grandafther.

He, Michael Pearce TONKIN left St Ives in 1861 and was in Devonport in the 1861 census. He married there the same year and went to Deptford in London.

Going back to William Henry TONKIN b07 Jan 1798 - he married 22 Oct 1822 Elizabeth STEVENS dau of John STEVENS and Elizabeth PEARCE. They moved to Wales in the mid 1820s and had 5 children
The first was William Henry TONKIN b25 Apr 1823 in St Ives. Then Elizabeth b16 Feb 1825 b St Ives? Then Michal Pearce TONKIN (female !) b 1827 in Portreath, Wales where the family settled. Michal obviously went back to St Ives as she married William Richards QUICK in St Ives in 1848 and they had a daughter Kate QUICK

Hope some of this fits/helps. If anyone has any additional information /corrections please let me know.

The whole set of families with cross over names and interlinked families is very confusing but I am confident that what I have shown above ( E&OE from my typing) is as accurate as one can be when delving into old records

Regards
Mike

[newlyn]

www.lulu.com/content/716095

I have recently come across this link for the 'Tonkin family'

I believe there are family trees in the book which relate to all over Cornwall.

Newlyn

[Cornish Terrier]

Going back to William Henry TONKIN b07 Jan 1798 - he married 22 Oct 1822 Elizabeth STEVENS dau of John STEVENS and Elizabeth PEARCE. They moved to Wales in the mid 1820s and had 5 children
The first was William Henry TONKIN b25 Apr 1823 in St Ives. Then Elizabeth b16 Feb 1825 b St Ives? Then Michal Pearce TONKIN (female !) b 1827 in Portreath, Wales where the family settled. Michal obviously went back to St Ives as she married William Richards QUICK in St Ives in 1848 and they had a daughter Kate QUICK

In fact all five of the children of William and Elizabeth TONKIN were bon/baptised at St Ives.

William Henry bp. 16th May 1823
Elizabeth Stevens bp. 16th February 1825
Michael Pearce bp. 16th February 1827
Grace Stevens bp. 5th February 1831
John Stevens bp. 31st May 1839

Michael Pearce TONKIN
m1. William Richards QUICK in 1848 (marriage not found yet)
m2. James KERNICK 13th December 1868 at St Ives.

She died at Bristol in 1880

Grace Stevens TONKIN
m. William PENBERTHY at Cardiff R.D., Wales in 1855

John Stevens TONKIN
m. Jane Hodge GYLES at St Ives 31st January 1867

I have children for some of these but in the most part would only be one or two generations at present.

And thankyou for the TRY information which I will take a closer look at now.

BTW Ann TRY was buried at St Ives 1st December 1828 age 79.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

I have just been having another look at the TRY family and it seems we are going back into those 'murky waters' of ALIAS NAMES!

From around 1700 there is also a Richard TRY baptising children with at least one, Margaret, being recorded as Margaret TRY or MORRISH.

Even George TRY is recorded as George TRY or MORRISH s/o Thomas TRY or MORRISH.

Having been unable to find a baptism for Richard TRY I decided to see what I might find under MORRISH:-

Richard MORRISH or TREY bp. 10th November 1669 at St Ives s/o John MORRISH or TREY

There are several records of the name MORRISH or TREY (TRY and even TRERY) if you look at records prior to 1700 with many of the names familiar in the family of George TRY.

With George being recorded as son of Thomas TRY or MORRISH and also having looked at the pre-1700 entries for baptisms I woud sugget it extremely likey that the following marriage is that of the parents of George TRY:-

Thomas MORISH m. Jane COCKE 29th June 1674 at St Ives

Will await feedback on this prior to investigating further but it certainly looks a good possibility.

CT