Thomas Quick and Zenobia (Unknown)

[Isambard]

From information provided by Dr. William Quick, the earliest Quick in my ancestral line is Thomas Quick b. abt 1600, Zennor, d. bef 1664, Zennor, married bef 1619 to Zenobia (Sinoby) surname unknown, b. bef 1604, d. aft 1664.

Has a surname since been found for Zenobia?

Out of curiosity was/is Zenobia a not uncommon name in Cornwall?

From Britannica I see that Zenobia was a Syrian Queen of the 3rd century.

[Cornish Terrier]

To my knowledge no surname for Zenobia has yet been found and I am yet to find information for which I can be confident regarding the parents of Thomas Quick.

It does appear that he probably originated in the area of the Lizard Peninsula, probably St Keverne, St Martin in Meneage or Mawgan in Meneage.

I would suggest he was born before 1600 (Zenobia also) given we have a baptismal record for their daughter Phillipa at Zennor in 1619.

Zenobia was a name in fairly common use in Cornwall even into the 1800's and I have seen it numerous times whilst searching Cornish records.

And I do not think it was restricted to the West of Cornwall.

I pursue mostly families from Western Cornwall so cannot comment too much on other areas but I do know that names like 'Melchisadec' seemed to have some prominence for a time also.

And to throw in an odd one - BALDWIN Trewhella.

The first of this name was bapised at Towednack in 1700 as son of John Trewhella and Katherine (nee Hingston).

He died in 1741 aboard the ship 'Bathsua' and I have a copy of his Will.
His sister Prudence had an illegitimate son who was baptised and buried in 1726 and whom she named Baldwin also.

Another interesting name that came into this particular family was 'Malachy' and that name was used into the 1800's also.

That's about the best I can do for now without digging out books from boxes.

Ian

[Hardy]

Isambard - I note that there are at least 169 baptism records for the name Zenobia that have been recorded at www.cornwall-opc-database.org.

In respect of Zenobia Quick I also note that the OPC Transcribers have listed her name as Synobye (Phillipa's baptism 1625) and Sinoby (Anthony's baptism 1634).

Lastly some 11 years after your post it would still seem that we have no evidence of Zenobia's surname or for that matter a date or place of birth.

Peter

[Hardy]

Mar 11, 2008 10:21:45 GMT -5 Cornish Terrier said:

It does appear that he probably originated in the area of the Lizard Peninsula, probably St Keverne, St Martin in Meneage or Mawgan in Meneage.

I would suggest he was born before 1600 (Zenobia also) given we have a baptismal record for their daughter Phillipa at Zennor in 1619.

Your comment CT that Thomas Quick may have originated in the Lizard Peninsula area lead me to consider looking a bit closer through the Archersoftware for baptism records of Mawgan-in-Meneage and I've found a Zenobia Tryniman bap. 20 Feb 1598 - Father Thomas Tryniman. www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NGMF-YLB

This record also appears at Ancestry as well as Findmypast.

At 23 miles away from Zennor it's a bit of a way to travel in the early 1600's but the possible matching origins of the Lizard Peninsula is intriguing.

Any thoughts anyone??

Peter

[Cornish Terrier]

That comment was over 10 years ago and at a time I knew comparatively little about the Quicks. I really don't know at the moment what reason I might have had for suggesting Thomas Quick may have come from the Lizard area so I would suggest that nobody get too carried away with the comment.

CT

[Hardy]

Mar 10, 2008 17:28:36 GMT -5 Isambard said:

Zenobia (Sinoby) surname unknown, b. bef 1604, d. aft 1664.

Out of curiosity was/is Zenobia a not uncommon name in Cornwall?

From Britannica I see that Zenobia was a Syrian Queen of the 3rd century.

Of some interest to the origins of the name Zenobia is the following extract taken from Matthews “A history of the parishes of St. Ives, Lelant, Towednack and Zennnor” (1892):

“The name Zenobia, which has often been appealed to as favouring the theory of the Phoenicians coming to Cormwall for tin, in reality commemorates Saint Sinara, the patron of Zennor where this baptismal name chiefly prevails. The first extract which we have made from the parish registers relating to the Stevenses of Bregia, shows the form 'St Noby'. It was also written 'Sinoby' and 'Sinobia'. "

While we can also confirm that she was still alive in 1664 as Zenobia Quicke of Towednack is recorded in the Subsidy Roll of that year I think we might be able to push her death date to be after 1679 as there is a reference to "Zenobia Quicke, widowe" in the CRO as noted at  cornish-place-names.wikidot.com/nancledra-towednack

[Cornish Terrier]

Hmmmmmm ….. possibly!

In the Manor of Amell and Trilly, tenements now or late of Zenobia Quicke, widdowe, and James Trewheela and John Quicke.
CRO, GB/15/2, 1679 (*)

But you need to take note of the words 'now or late of'. I am reasonably sure both James Trewheela and John Quicke were still living at that time so I would consider the 'or late of' to be a probable reference to Zenobia.

CT

[Hardy]

It's interesting isn't it CT?  I did consider the "now or late of" and thought that in order Zenobia could possibly be "now" and John could be "late of" but really there is no confirmation either way is there?

What we do know firstly is that there could only have been one Zenobia Quicke, widow in Towednack in the 1664 - 1670's period.

We have a reference to James Trewheela in both the 1664 Subsidy Roll and the Cornish Records and we have a burial date of March 1697.

So this leaves us with John Quicke.

The 1664 Subsidy Roll includes Francis Quicke but no John.

So is this John possibly the son of Thomas & Zenobia b.1630? I have no death date for this particular John so can't confirm whether he was still alive in 1679.

I've been searching the CRO online records and it seems the above quoted record reference is contained within GB/15 - "Amylle-an Trylle manor, Towednack, Zennor, Ludgvan, Sennen and Lelant".

Of interest is another Reference GB/15/20 - "Lease, Nancledra, Towednack" dated 31 May 1658. This manuscript has the following description:

"Parties: 1) Eliab Harvey, esquire, London, Humphrey Noy, esquire, Carnanton 2) John Quick, miller and James Trewheela, yeoman, both of Towednack. 99 year lease, lives: James and John Trewheela, Elizabeth Warren, Consideration £110; rent 7 shillings. Land in the village of Nancledra, Towednack."

Now what's interesting is that this lease pre-dates the 1664 Subsidy Roll which tends to suggest one of three things:

    (i) that we could well be dealing with a different John Quick all together; or

    (ii) that we now have possible confirmation that John's wife Elizabeth was indeed Elizabeth Warren; or alternatively

    (iii) none of the above

So to further investigate this trail of thought will probably require a visit to the new Kresen Kernow in Redruth.

It's however a long way from Albury NSW to Cornwall so this will simply have to remain inconclusive me thinks.

[Hardy]

Jun 29, 2019 21:08:59 GMT -5 Hardy said:

What we do know firstly is that there could only have been one Zenobia Quicke, widow in Towednack in the 1664 - 1670's period.

Well here's the thing. There are indeed two Zenobia Quicks recorded in the 1664 Hearth Tax database at OPC.

The above mentioned in the Registration district of Towednack and another transcribed as  being within the Registration district of Zennor.

Is this the same person or were there two Zenobia's or if it is the same person did she own two properties???

curious indeed

[Cornish Terrier]

So is this John possibly the son of Thomas & Zenobia b.1630? I have no death date for this particular John so can't confirm whether he was still alive in 1679.

As I have said in various places on this forum in the past, I spent years working on these Quick families and whilst I do not have all the answers and do still have loose ends I came up with a logical and 'best case' scenario based on all the information I had been able to gather. At some stage I will return to the problem of those loose ends ………………..

Amongst those 'loose ends' is the very document you have quoted in which Elizabeth Warren is named as a life on property in Nancledra. I have certainly toyed with the idea that Elizabeth Warren may have become the wife of John Quick but until or unless I find something else to support the idea I am not prepared to make the link.

Before attacking the problem of John Quick I will address the earlier query regarding Zenobia Quick, John Quick and James Trewheela and the phrase 'now or late of'.

I think we are agreed that by 1679 Zenobia Quick would have been at the very least in her early 70s so she is obviously the more likely to have been 'late of'. BTs are available for the years 1663-1667 and 1673 and then 1681, 1684, 1685 and 1690 and there are some legible entries to be found in the Parish Register for 1670. Zenobia is not found in any of those and she is also not mentioned in the Wills of her sons Francis (1689) and Anthony (1698) which, had she been still living, might have been expected. Based on that I would conclude that she was very likely deceased by 1679.

James Trewheela/Trewhella - there were two of that name in 1679 who were of or had connections with the Towednack area. First was the husband of Blanch whose burial is recorded in the Parish Register for 1686 - this James is most likely the man buried at Towednack in 1697/8. The other was probably their son James Trewheela whose Will was proved on the Scilly Isles in 1700. I think it may have been the younger James who was involved in the Nancledra lease given some of the bequests in his Will.

So now to John Quick - based on all the bits and pieces of information I have been able to find over the years it appears unlikely there was any more than two John Quicks in the Towednack area born before about 1663 and who could have been involved in the Nancledra Lease. One of those was the son of James Quick and Jane Knight who by 1680 had married and become involved at Gulval and a few years later entrenched at St Ives so he can probably be ruled out.

There are another two John Quicks in my 'loose ends' pile though. The first was baptized at Gulval in 1663 Anthony Quick and the other in 1773 at Towednack to Israel Quick. The son of Anthony was mentioned in his father's Will in 1698 but Israel and his family seem to disappear and I have a suspicion they may have ended up in Ireland.

By process of elimination we are left with an unknown John Quick who I think can logically only have been a son of Thomas and Zenobia and I have also tentatively placed his birth at around 1630. Here is a list of 'facts' involving John Quick compiled from what you have recently discussed and information I have:-

1658 -

Of interest is another Reference GB/15/20 - "Lease, Nancledra, Towednack" dated 31 May 1658. This manuscript has the following description:

"Parties: 1) Eliab Harvey, esquire, London, Humphrey Noy, esquire, Carnanton 2) John Quick, miller and James Trewheela, yeoman, both of Towednack. 99 year lease, lives: James and John Trewheela, Elizabeth Warren, Consideration £110; rent 7 shillings. Land in the village of Nancledra, Towednack."

1664 - Thomas sonn of John Quick bap the 5 of March (Bishops Transcripts)

1679 -

In the Manor of Amell and Trilly, tenements now or late of Zenobia Quicke, widdowe, and James Trewheela and John Quicke.
CRO, GB/15/2, 1679 (*)

1680 - persons of interest giving evidence as part of the Rosewall Deposition (Matthews Histor of St Ives etc.)
Thomas Quick of Towednack age 34
James Trewhela of Towednack age 65
Willmott Harry wife of Richard Harry of Towednack, aged 47, Says that one John Quick had formerly indifferently divided the lands adjoining those of Deft. between other persons who held the same formerly.
Issraell Quicke of Morvay yeoman aged 36

1697 - Richard Quick married Ann Robins widow 1st June 1697 Towednack (I suspect him to be a son of John Quick)

1702 - Elizabeth wife of John Quick buried 8th April 1702 Towednack

1716 - John Quick buried 3rd February 1716 Towednack
1716 - John Quick jnr buried 2nd March 1716 Towednack

With the exception of the 1716 burials I suspect all references are to the same John Quick and that he was almost certainly a son of Thomas and Zenobia. And given the was the entries are written I think it most probable that the first of the two 1716 burials is also for that same John Quick.

The second John Quick buried 2nd March 1716 is probably one of the following:-

1. son of Anthony Quick baptized 4th October 1663 Gulval and named in his father's Will of 1698
2. son of Israel Quick baptized 8th December 1673 Towednack - I am doubtful about him given Israel Quick also disappears and suspect this family may possibly have ended up in Ireland.
3. son of Paul Quick baptized 4th July 1697 Towednack and named in his father's Will in 1710

More information is required before the question of that burial can be answered but at this stage I lean towards the son of Anthony.

CT

[Hardy]

Thanks for the detailed response CT. I can follow the logic and concur that in all likelihood this John is the son of Thomas & Zenobia.

I can see from other areas of the Forum that the naming of Elizabeth Warren in the 1658 lease has been the subject of some speculation. Indeed the thread "Cornish Deeds involving Trewhella" got a little heated it would seem, not only about Elizabeth but also the accuracy or otherwise of available transcriptions. I suspect questions regarding transcription may well explain the two 1664 Zenobias in the OPS database.

None the less, it certainly is the case that secondary sources, such as those held by CRO, if considered with a degree of caution, help paint a background picture to be able to thread together timelines such as the above.

I'm drawn somewhat to notion of Elizabeth Warren marrying John but like you I'll keep this to one side in my loose ends / red herrings box for the time being.

thanks again
Peter

[Cornish Terrier]

Well here's the thing. There are indeed two Zenobia Quicks recorded in the 1664 Hearth Tax database at OPC.

The above mentioned in the Registration district of Towednack and another transcribed as being within the Registration district of Zennor.

Is this the same person or were there two Zenobia's or if it is the same person did she own two properties???

curious indeed

Sorry Peter but I missed this comment earlier.

Zenobia does get a mention in both Zennor and Towednack but it appears she was actually residing at Towednack. She is not named in the actual list of owners at Zennor but rather at the bottom "Hearths not mentioned in the former returns - Zenobia Quicke o.t.o. 1"

So it appears there was one chargeable hearth belonging to Zenobia Quicke 'or the occupant' in which case Zenobia was not necessarily there. Over at Towednack she is charged on 3 hearths in 1662 but in 1664 only 2 hearths can be found.

There is no other known evidence to suggest a second Zenobia so I am of the opinion this is one and the same person.

Re Elizabeth Warren - we could speculate for ever and a day and still have only a 50-50 chance of being right about whether or not she became John Quick's wife. I don't know if the problem would be solved by having an opportunity to read the complete document involved but certainly it would be very nice to be able to see and read it to know exactly what was written and how.
What we have at the moment is merely an abstract of the contents so there is plenty of scope for error for anyone trying to interpret any meanings. Other words and/or phrases within the document might allow a more accurate interpretation.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

I've found a Zenobia Tryniman bap. 20 Feb 1598

While checking on something else I came across this from one of your recent posts. First thing to mention is that a bit of licence may be involved in the transcription of the name - in the original document it actually looks like TRYMMAN at first glance.

Anyway, my point in mentioning this is that I think it likely the next record involving Zenobia might be the following marriage at Mawgan in Meneage:-

30th November 1620 - Henrie John and Cenobie Trewman were married

CT