Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 12, 2007 13:46:31 GMT -5
C'mon members (and friends, and other contacts) If you have contacts with West Penwith there is a fair chance you will have some dealings with Ludgvan Parish. It is in the middle of a 'minefield' one might say as it borders numerous other Parishes and people from those other Parishes were often involved at Ludgvan. Look at Gulval, Madron, St Erth, Towednack, Lelant, St Ives, Marazion and St Hilary.
Please - get involved and we will help where help is needed!
Post by calswimmer on Apr 15, 2007 11:05:30 GMT -5
Yes, I have ancestor Richard Thomas born in Ludgvan about 1792. He died in St. Erth 1867 and I think his parents are John Thomas and Anne Nicholas. I would like to find out more about John and Anne and the Nicholas family in general. Richard Thomas was married to Charity Bawden.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 15, 2007 12:52:30 GMT -5
Hello Calswimmer and welcome aboard. I am not an expert on the Thomas or Bawden families but let me see what I can find.
Firstly - I have looked at the 1861 Census. Richard Thomas (68) and wife Charity (62) are living at Hayle Foundry, St Erth. Richard was a Coal Agent born at Ludgvan and Charity was born at Phillack. Unfortunately I do not have Ludgvan Baptismal Records available to me at the moment so cannot help too much with Richard in that regard.
Charity I may be able to help with - although her age in 1861 is given as 62 I suspect she may be the following:-
BAWDEN, Charity d/o Joseph and Ann bp. Phillack 17th September 1796.
Now, your Richard Thomas looks like this fellow:-
Richard Thomas, of Foundry Hill, St Erth, buried 27th January 1867, age 74.
In the 1871 Census I have found a Charity Thomas, widow, age 72, mother-in-law, in the household of Hannibal Gregory (17) and Ellen Gregory (16). This entry is a little confusing - It is West Terrace, Phillack but there appear to be to conjoining premises involved. 151 - we see William Trathen, Head, aged 54 (bn. Phillack) , with wife Ann aged 55 (bn. St Erth) and a lodger named John Angove. 152 - Hannabal Gregory, son, aged 17, (bn. Phillack), Ellen Gregory, daughter, aged 16, (bn. Phillack) and then Charity Thomas, mother-in-law, widow, aged 72 (bn. Phillack).
Looks like the possibility of two marriages here so I will look into it further.
In 1851 Richard and Charity are at Carnsew, St Erth with the following children:- Joseph (24), Nicholas (22), Henry (20), Edward (12), Eliza (28), Mary Jane (16), Elizabeth (14) and Emily (10) - all born St Erth.
Joseph bp. St Erth November 5th 1826. Nicholas bp. St Erth March 29th 1829.
I cannot find the others at the moment and cannot find the marriage just yet.
Let's work with that and please supply me with whatever other info you have that might help with this one.
Post by calswimmer on Apr 15, 2007 18:38:44 GMT -5
Wow! thank you. That is very nice of you to look into this family. I'm not entirely sure of what happened to Charity. I have seen a couple of BMD death records which could be hers. For Richard I can be sure he died in 1867 because it was listed as at Foundry Hill. I think Charity had already died, possibly in 1857. I have decided based on IGI records that Richard's parents are John Thomas and Anne Nicholas but beyond that I can't find anything yet. I think the Nicholas family came from elsewhere to Ludgvan. As far as Charity, there is plenty on her ancestry. The children of Charity and Richard knew Henry Irving well, and I'm wondering how they came to know him. I know he was living near them for a time as a child in Ventonleague. Thanks for your help!
Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 16, 2007 12:34:29 GMT -5
A dilemma here! Your latest says that you think Charity had 'already died, possibly in 1857.' But - IF I have found the correct family in the 1861 Census then this cannot be! (And from the information I have at the moment, both from yourself and what I have briefly checked, she must have still been living in 1861.)
I have now just looked at the 1841 Census for St Erth and found the following. (Bear in mind that the age was rounded to the nearest 5 years for anyone over (I think) the age of 14):-
Richard Thomas, 45, labourer Charity Thomas, 45 John Thomas, 20, labourer Eliza Thomas, 15 Richard Thomas, 15 Joseph Thomas, 14 Nicholas Thomas, 13 Henry Thomas, 11 Grace Thomas, 9 Henry Thomas, 7 Elizabeth Thomas, 5 Henry Thomas, 3 Emelley Thomas, 1
You will note that there are THREE children named Henry in this family!? This was all the one household but, unfortunately, the 1841 Census gave very minimal information. However, the children all appear to be of the same family.
It might be well worthwhile having our Administrator take a look at this Census entry and offer her thoughts but the Image is quite clear and I can make nothing other then 'Henry' for each of those three.
I cannot explain the 1871 Census entry as yet but I can offer the following:-
19th February 1876 Charity Thomas, abode Lelant, age 77 was buried at St Erth.
I cannot find another Charity Thomas in the 1871 Census who is anywhere near being a possibility so it looks 'probable' that this is the one you are looking for. (Do not take this for granted as there may be something not yet found - but it does look probable)
I suggest we now (Aussie Rules Football vernacular) handpass this to our Administrator for a look and some thoughts!
Post by calswimmer on Apr 16, 2007 16:22:52 GMT -5
Well, thanks! I'm sure you must be right. I do appreciate your checking for Charity. My ancestor from that family is Mary Jane, who was born in 1835, and I don't think she appears in the 1841 census at all. I've looked at the transcriptions and she just isn't there at that time. The children of Richard and Charity as I have them are John, Eliza, Joseph, Nicholas, Henry, Mary Jane, Elizabeth, Edward, Emily. Joseph became an engineer in the Lee Waterworks in London and I found that household in the 1881 census. lMary Jane married Stephen Penberthy (born 1830) and then she died in 1862. Stephen immediately remarried and completely disappeared by 1870. But who would you say is the son-in-law of Charity? Is the daughter Ann or Ellen? I think Ellen is too young.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 17, 2007 11:45:59 GMT -5
The last Henry (age 3) mentioned in the 1841 Census is probably Edward who is aged 12 in 1851. I would suggest that, in 1841, Mary Jane was possibly staying with her grandparents. (But paternal or maternal is uncertain.) Will try for more later.
Post by calswimmer on Apr 19, 2007 19:52:26 GMT -5
I've been checking my notes. I did have a note that Charity died 1857. The BMD for 1857 has Charity Bawden Thomas dead in that year in Penzance. It could be another Charity, I suppose, or it could be her. That is her name. "Thomas Charity Bawden Penzance 5c 217" (source: BMD) I have some other notes on the family, and will try to put the info together.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 20, 2007 13:15:48 GMT -5
Calswimmer - I think I have found the answer to your 1857 question.
I have checked the St Catherine's House BMD Index and found only one entry in the first quarter of 1857 (5c/217) for a Charity Thomas who died in the Penzance District. (Charity Bawden T) The only other Charity Thomas in the Index died in Plymouth so we have just the one to deal with.
I have checked my St Erth Burial Records and have found the following:-
Charity Barron Thomas Hayle 02-Jan 10 months
There, I think, lies the answer - this was a ten-month-old child so could not have been 'your' Charity. I know the second name is recorded here as 'Barron' and in the Death Index as 'Bawden' but I have not seen the original entry at St Erth.
I think the burial I mentioned in a previous posting will be the one you require.
Post by calswimmer on Apr 20, 2007 15:43:37 GMT -5
Thanks for checking that out! I had wondered if that 1857 BMD record might be a child's name. That means my ancestor Charity is probably the m-in-law in the 1871 census with the Gregory and Tralhan families. I can't find the exact connection, but by looking at previous census transcriptions, I see that a Gregory family lives near to Charity in 1851.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 21, 2007 13:10:38 GMT -5
Okay - maybe a little more information forthcoming re the 1871 Census with Hannibal and Ellen Gregory!
1861 Census:- Hayle, Phillack 80 - William Trathen, Head, Mar., age 45, engineer, bn. Phillack Ann Trathen, wife, Mar, age 45, bn. St Erth 81 - Richard Gregory, Head, Mar, age 44, Master Mariner, bn. Gwithian Ann Gregory, wife, Mar, age 44, bn. Gwinear Elizabeth A, daur, age 19, bn. Phillack Emily, daur, age 18, bn. Phillack Richard, son, age 16, Blacksmiths ap., bn. Phillack John, son, age 15, Mariner, bn. Phillack George, son, age 13, Blacksmiths ap., bn. Phillack William, son, age 11, Scholar, bn. Phillack HANNIBAL, son, age 7, Scholar, bn. Phillack ELLEN, daur, age 5, Scholar, bn. Phillack
Now for some Baptisms at Phillack:- (ch. of Richard and Ann Gregory) 24 May 1840 - Richard (abode Penpoll) 28 Jul 1853 - William Henry (abode Hayle Terrace) 28Jul 1853 - Nicholas (abode Hayle Terrace)
Burials at Phillack:- 27 Aug 1840 - Richard (abode Penpoll) age 7 months 09 May 1841 - James (abode Penpoll) age 1 month 07 Feb 1844 - Thomas (abode St Erth)
That is about the best I can do for the time being and some of the above may not belong. I cannot find baptisms for any more at either St Erth or Phillack.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 22, 2007 14:28:48 GMT -5
Dear Friend - your last may have just provided one of the clues for which we seek! ;D
September 29th 1816 at PHILLACK was baptised ANN daughter of RICHARD and CHARITY THOMAS!
Next step will be to try and find a marriage for Ann to William Trathen.
After that we need to look at the Gregory Family who were right next door in the Census of 1861. Then it is a task to sort out the GREGORY connection!
But I am suspecting that the term 'mother-in-law' may be one of those items that has been discussed on another part of this Board. It is 'possible' that, in this case, it may actually mean 'grandmother'.