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Post by chrisdearnley on Mar 8, 2023 9:53:46 GMT -5
I am trying to find out whether William Henry Collect, son of Thomas Collect and Joyce Bawden and baptised at St Erth on 15th Oct 1837, is the same person as Henry Collect, son of Thomas Collect, who married Christian James, daughter of Peter James, Farmer, in Crowan Parish Church, on 3rd October 1857.
William Henry had a brother, William (born 1833), so it may be that he was called by his second name for obvious reasons.
I know the names Collect/Collict/Collick are often used within the same family and William Henry Collect is also known as William Henry Collick.
I have found numerous instances where researchers on other sites have made the connection between the two but I haven't seen any 'evidence', other than similar names. Of course, there may not be any!
William Henry Collick may have married 3 times in total - to the above Christian (possibly also Kitty, maybe short for Kettuca? as it appears on an 1851 census return, naming Peter James, Farmer of 43 acres, as Father and Christiana James as Mother); Mary Jane James, possibly Christian's sister? (there is a Mary Jane James on the same 1851 census return); and Rufina Rogers.
If anyone can shine a brighter light on this, I would be extremely grateful!
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Post by donne on Mar 8, 2023 14:48:27 GMT -5
One piece of evidence could be that both bride and groom in the 1857 COLLICK/JAMES marriage were described as 'minors'. That would mean that Henry would have been born after 3 Oct 1836. We only have a baptism date of 15 Oct 1837 for the William Henry, but he certainly could be the groom assuming his baptism took place within weeks of his birth.
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Post by zibetha on Mar 8, 2023 16:53:17 GMT -5
Hi, approaching this from a different direction, my vote for William Henry's wife is d) none of the above. I have him married to Mary Jane Berryman in 1860, Penzance registration district. She survived him and died in 1917 in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
Brother Uriah married Honor Semmens Ward whose mother Jennifer Semmons was my third great-grandfather Henry's sister. They had a daughter, Choice Annie (Joyce Ann) and are the only couple who I've found so far that used the name Joyce. Uriah and Honor settled in New Zealand.
William Henry and Mary Jane named a son Uriah. They also had a son Thomas John ("John") whose wife was Mary Elizabeth Pellow. I have traced her back (correctly, I hope!) to Robert Hampton and Ann Cock, daughter of Christopher Cock the Elder and Jane Penhellick.
Zib
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Post by chrisdearnley on Mar 8, 2023 17:23:04 GMT -5
One piece of evidence could be that both bride and groom in the 1857 COLLICK/JAMES marriage were described as 'minors'. That would mean that Henry would have been born after 3 Oct 1836. We only have a baptism date of 15 Oct 1837 for the William Henry, but he certainly could be the groom assuming his baptism took place within weeks of his birth. Hi there! Thanks for coming back to me. I too had noticed the 'minor' tag and followed a similar logic. I just wondered if there was anything more specific. As William Henry and Henry appear to be interchangeable in several other places on the internet, I thought that there might be something I had missed! Cheers, Chris |
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Post by chrisdearnley on Mar 8, 2023 17:40:07 GMT -5
Hi, approaching this from a different direction, my vote for William Henry's wife is d) none of the above. I have him married to Mary Jane Berryman in 1860, Penzance registration district. She survived him and died in 1917 in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Brother Uriah married Honor Semmens Ward whose mother Jennifer Semmons was my third great-grandfather Henry's sister. They had a daughter, Choice Annie (Joyce Ann) and are the only couple who I've found so far that used the name Joyce. Uriah and Honor settled in New Zealand. William Henry and Mary Jane named a son Uriah. They also had a son Thomas John ("John") whose wife was Mary Elizabeth Pellow. I have traced her back (correctly, I hope!) to Robert Hampton and Ann Cock, daughter of Christopher Cock the Elder and Jane Penhellick. Zib Hi there! On my record, there are actually 2 Williams, sons of John Collect and Joyce Bawden - Plain 'William', born in 1833, who indeed married Mary Jane Berryman; and also 'William Henry', born 1836/7. Given his brother was also William, I wondered if William Henry might have been called Henry, hence my post... In my tree I have 11 Williams and 9 William Henrys, so at times, confusion reigns! I also have 4 Thomas Johns...! Cheers, Chris |
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Post by zibetha on Mar 8, 2023 19:22:51 GMT -5
It's not a lot to go on, but I have William H Collick 1862 figured as a "Jr"-- he listed his father as William/Wm. H in both of his marriage records. Sister Mary Collick Stephens' death record also includes "H" as a middle initial for her father. The only potential baptism record I found for the elder William s/o Thomas and Joyce who is on the 1841 and 1851 Census records with the family was 1828 in St Erth, but mother was listed as "Julia" ? but then his sister Elizabeth's record has her mother as "Jane"  My guess is that William 1828 may have gone abroad, and William Henry's age is ovestimated on the census or he may have been baptized late. www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FZ9X-29B William H Jr's first marriage www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NQ9K-C16 " second marriage www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FHZW-GRX Mary Collick Stephens' death I don't envy you having to work with all the repeated names in this family! Zib |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 9, 2023 3:45:20 GMT -5
Hmmm! looks like a lot of circle-swimming involved here and not everyone in the same circle!  I have had the Collick/Berryman marriage in my database for about five years but have not done anything with these families since then. However, I have noted that in the 1871 Census William Collick stated he was born at St Erth about 1832/3 so he is almost certainly not William Henry Collick of 1837. At this moment I have not had time to take a look at the 1841 and 1851 Census records but I have checked the OPC for baptisms of children to Thomas and Joyce Collick and found just five with none of them being a William in 1833. My question, prior to checking further, is 'where does this information regarding an earlier William come from?'  Could it be from the 1841 Census perhaps?  (I know I will find the answer to that when I check the Census but I wanted to throw it in anyway for a particular reason ........... If that information does come from the Census then the question becomes - Has anyone considered the possibility that William of 1833 may have been a nephew to Thomas and Joyce???  It is not unusual to find families in the 1841 Census with a lot of kids including some (who are not twins) being the same age. I have actually seen this many times and on further investigation found that there were 1 and sometimes several more children in the household who were actually nephews and nieces. Sometimes they are listed in age order with the actual children of the head of house in which case it appears they are all of the same family. Other times they might be listed in a separate group but neither scenario is very helpful when you consider that in 1841 many enumerators listed male and female children in separate groups!  Anyway, that is one thing I will be looking at very shortly. And I consider it a very interesting question as well given in 1833 at Germoe a son William was baptised to Richard and Elizabeth Collick. More interesting when you consider that Thomas Collick had an elder brother named Richard.  One way or another I will advise the results of my upcoming searches once completed. CT |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 9, 2023 3:49:36 GMT -5
1841 Census and already a problem! - I now see that William was apparently not born about 1833 at all but at age 13 would have been born about 1827 or 1828. That now gives me three Williams to chase down. CT |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 9, 2023 4:56:10 GMT -5
I now see that on 2nd November 1828 at St Erth William son of Thomas and JULIA Collick was baptised but now another anomaly appears - Thomas Collick is now recorded as a 'mason' by trade!! In 1823 at the baptism of son Richard Thomas was simply a labourer and for the other four baptisms he was a 'miner'. Perhaps he was merely a 'mason's labourer' rather than a trained mason. Either way it does appear he belongs to the family and I have been unable to find a burial. I also just looked at 1841 again and see there were also two daughters in the household - Maria age 10 and Elizabeth age 1!! At the baptism of Maria her mother's name is recorded as Anne.  I can understand that one a little better than Julia because I think Joyce Bawden's mother was named Ann. Perhaps people were confused about whose mother's name the Vicar required for the baptism record! And now we have daughter Elizabeth who was age 1 in 1841 - well she is different again!! This time the mother's name is recorded as JANE!! It took some doing but I finally found the family in 1851 - transcribed as COLLICOTT. I presume others have also found this but the actual spelling of the surname in this Census is 'COLLICTT' and Joyce is written as 'Joice' but transcribed as JAICE. (Corrections have already been submitted but standard search terms made it no easier to find the family. ) The combined Census records prove that William (1828) and (William) Henry (1837) were brothers so perhaps 'William Henry' in the 1837 baptism record was an error given that child appears only as 'Henry' afterwards. (Unless there is another later record I have not yet seen that shows him as William Henry again.) In my opinion and to add to the responses regarding your first question - (William) Henry Collick/Collect baptised 1837 at St Erth was definitely the man who married Christian James at Crowan in 1857. As for the other two Williams in the mix:- William (1828) son of Thomas and Joyce - Here is where I may have something a little more worthwhile!! :-) I think I have now been able to eliminate the William Collick/Collect boys baptised at Germoe in 1831 and 1833 and another baptised in 1836 was a little late to figure in proceedings given details I have just looked at in the 1861 Census. The two Williams baptised at Germoe in 1831 and 1833 were to the same parents - William of 1831 was buried soon after and William of 1833 married Elizabeth Jane Roscollar at Germoe in 1857. Soooooooooooo!!! We come to a William Collick/Collect who, as time wore on, appears to have had trouble remembering just how old he was! The upshot of it is that William son of Thomas and 'Julia' Collick of Crowan, mason, baptised at St Erth 2nd November 1828 is actually the William Collick who married Mary Jane Berryman in 1860!!  In other words William who married Mary Jane Berryman and Henry who married Christian James were brothers! In 1841 William was age 13 so born about 1827/28 In 1851 William was age 21 so born about 1829/30 In 1861 William was age 30 so born about 1830/31 In 1871 William was age 38 so born about 1832/33 Isn't it great to be able to become a year or two younger every ten years! In the space of 30 years William became 5 years younger!! CT |
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Post by Captain on Mar 9, 2023 6:43:53 GMT -5
I would concur that William Collick 1828 Married Mary Jane Berryman
Henry Collick the brother married Christian James.
The reference to Henry being christened as William Henry 1837 is confusing however may have been an error on the parish records. It clearly is shown as William Henry on the original but at no stage on any records is there a reference to him being William Henry after the christening. 41/51/61/71/81/91/01 he is Henry. He did marry 3 times and each time he is Henry In 1857 to Christian James then in 1875 to Mary Jane James (the sister of Christian/Kitty) then again in 1900 in Falmouth to Ruffina Rogers. He also died as Henry 1906 Falmouth. The only other change being is Collick became Collict. Whilst I normally maintain my records on what they were called at birth/christening this one might be the exception.
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Post by chrisdearnley on Mar 9, 2023 7:50:00 GMT -5
Hi there CT! Glad to have you in on this one. We corresponded recently on Urens and Berrymans. Yes, there are two William Collicks, both born in 1833. William 1 This William, born to Richard and Elizabeth (née Stephens), is my Gt Gt Grandfather. William married Elizabeth J Roschollar on 26 Dec 1857, their son William Henry, having been born 3 years earler in 1854. (Interestingly, banns for William and Elizabeth (Scholar) were read twice in Germoe Parish Church. Three times in 1854, prior to the birth of their son and again, three times in 1857, the last being 14 days before their wedding.) William Henry was to be killed in a shooting accident in DeLamar, Idaho, in 1898, leaving a wife and six children behind in Cornwall. I have a lot of information about this if anyone is interested. William and Elizabeth J had another son, Richard James Collick, born in 1865. In my research I have also found out a lot about Richard, who made his way to the US, via Canada, where he signed on for the Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF) in 1917. Richard’s US destination was Ironwood, Michigan, which became home to many Cornish folk. Richard’s Death Certificate is interesting, quoting his dob as Dec 7 1874. He seems to have re-invented himself, not uncommon as we know but the information I have in various stages of his life, all point to one Richard, not two. However, I have digressed! William 2 The parents of this 1833 William are unclear at the moment. You make an interesting point about a possible nephew – I hadn’t thought of that! There may be other Berryman/Collick connections… As Zib has said, there is a Baptism record for a William Collick on 2 Nov 1828 at St Erth. However, this gives the parents as Thomas and Julia not Jane. (Not sure if Julia and Jane were interchangeable names?) Thomas’s occupation is given as ‘Mason’. William 2 married Mary Jane Berryman, the marriage registered between Jan – March 1860. The 1871 Census shows William and Mary Collick (from Towdenack) with 5 children - William (1860), Thomas Jno (1861), Anne (1862), Ellen (1864) and Mary (1869). The 1881 census shows a Mary Collect (from St Ives) as Head of the family. Included in this family is a John (1861), possibly the Thomas Jno of 10 years earlier(?), Mary (1869), Uriah (1873) and another Thomas (1875). By 1891, there is a Mary J Collict, now 50, (from Towdenack), with three sons - William H (1862), Uriah (1873) and Thomas (1875). One of my particular interests is just how many of my Collick forebears travelled to the US. William H (1862), Mary (1869) and Uriah (1873) – children of William and Mary Jane – all moved to the US, to be followed by their widowed mother. (There is a Mary J Colllick who immigrated via Quebec, Hardin, Iowa on 24 May 1898. Her estimated birth year is noted as 1845.) Mary Jane Collick appears in the 1910 US Census in Allegan County, Michigan, in the home of her son William Henry Collick, her birth year estimated as 1843. Needless to say, William Henry (1862) also had a son William Henry Jr, born in 1897! (This William Henry was also to go on to have a son, William Henry Collick III. Unfortunately, the birth and death of William Henry III was recorded in 1923.) William Henry (1862) was to marry three times. His first wife Carrie Jane Dunstone, born in England, died in Ishpeming, Michigan, on Aug 18 1897 of typhus fever. Their son William Henry had been born just a couple of months earlier on June 17 1897. This may have prompted Mary Jane to travel to the US in 1898. William Henry (1862) married Mable S Pierce in 1909 but she died 9 years later, aged 47. William Henry (1862) married a third time, to Anna Kirscheman, in 1923. There is a death Certificate in the name of Mary Jane Collick recorded at Kalamazoo, Michigan in 1917: michiganology.org/uncategorized/IO_4bfd81c3-413e-43e5-9dfd-0aa499bf4424 Her date of birth is May 1838 and her father’s name looks like John Benien – could be Berryman? William Henry (1862) died on 29 Nov 1931, aged almost 70: michiganology.org/uncategorized/IO_e8f75ce9-d5f5-49fc-8440-eae1d32906baWilliam Henry Jnr (1897), died in Kalamazoo, on 10 July, 1964. Crumbs, re-reading this, I seem to have travelled quite a distance from my initial query regarding William Henry (1837), however, I hope it fills in some of your gaps…if the information is not too muddy! Look forward to any thoughts you may have. Best regards, Chris |
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Post by chrisdearnley on Mar 9, 2023 7:54:45 GMT -5
Aha...as I posted this, I see 2 more replies have come in. What an intriguing problem this has turned out to be!
Thanks so much everyone, for your support and contributions!
Chris
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 10, 2023 0:58:07 GMT -5
Chris - where did you find information that William was supposed to have been born in 1833???
From what I have seen it may have been from a Census but, as I have pointed out, William's age 'shrunk' with each Census and in at least one Census record he certainly does appear to have been born around 1833.
Next point is regarding the mother's name - note that in my response overnight I mentioned sisters Maria and Elizabeth who both appeared in the 1841 Census. The baptism record for Maria show's her mother as ANNE and for Elizabeth her mother is shown as JANE!!!
I did check and there is no marriage for anyone of the Collect/Collick name to anyone named 'Julia' but William in 1841 was age 13 which matches the 1828 baptism of William to Thomas and JULIA.
My opinion is that all of these are definitely the same family but I have no solid theory on the recording of a different mother for these children.
If you can confirm the source of your 1833 birth for William it may help but I am pretty much convinced he was actually baptized in 1828.
CT
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Post by chrisdearnley on Mar 10, 2023 3:52:43 GMT -5
CT,
At the time I wrote my long response, I hadn't seen your earlier long reply, so although it seems as though my response followed yours 3 hours later, it actually crossed with yours coming in! I have been having problems with my internet connection, so I put my thoughts down in 'Word' before copying and pasting into the forum. I didn't want to lose my thoughts! As I connected and posted, your update came in, which is why I wrote my thanks immediately after.
I follow your logic and concur with your reasoning, so thank you so much for your efforts!
Re 1833, yes, this came from a Census record and I had struggled to connect this with the 1828 William. I have a note in my file "Age on census return suggests that William may have born in 1833, so I am unsure if the Baptism record above [1828] is the same person. Also, father’s occupation is ‘Mason’."
My original query had been about William Henry (1837) who, following responses, is now almost certain to be aka 'Henry' Collick, who married 3 times in his life. I am grateful that this has now sorted out a blockage in my research!
Cheers,
Chris
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 10, 2023 5:29:30 GMT -5
Hi Chris - glad that this seems to get us on the same page. It can certainly be frustrating when messages cross, as in your case, are delayed and it is not the first time it has caused a dilemma. As I explained in an earlier note the term 'mason' used for father's occupation in the baptism you refer to had me a little concerned as well and the fact the mother's name was recorded as 'Julia' seemed to throw a rather large spanner into the works. That is why I spent some time checking on possible marriages as well as other possible baptisms where the bride/mother may have been named Julia. It was only after those searches found nothing that I conceded we had to be dealing with the same family. (Same dilemma and same approach to the two daughters where the mother was named as Anne in one and Jane in the other baptism.) Should there be further queries on this family I will be happy to lend a hand again but for now it is back to to work on the Harvey families from another thread. CT |
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Could it be from the 1841 Census perhaps? 
(I know I will find the answer to that when I check the Census but I wanted to throw it in anyway for a particular reason ...........
I can understand that one a little better than Julia because I think Joyce Bawden's mother was named Ann. Perhaps people were confused about whose mother's name the Vicar required for the baptism record! 
