Family of John Hill Moyle - HELP!!!

[greyroamer]

Hi Everyone,

I'm seeking details on the family of John Hill MOYLE, born (I believe) in 1848 in Wendron, Cornwall. I have done some research and to tell the truth, I'm getting more and more confused the deeper I go.

"My" John Hill MOYLE was the son of Peter MOYLE (1816-1893) and Elizabeth HILL (1819-1863). As was common at the time, several of the children carried the mother's maiden name as a middle name. Two of John's siblings were Thomas Hill (b. 1842) and Samuel Hill (b. 1857). This John died in Adelaide, South Australia on 10 Jan 1927 and was buried on 12 Jan 1927 with his wife, Sarah Ann FULLER (1846-1924)

The confusion seem to arise because of the "other" John Hill MOYLE, who was born to Peter MOYLE (1772-dec) and Mary HILL (1773-1815) in 1800 in Wendron. Again, several of the children carried the middle name of Hill. Two of this John's siblings were Samuel Hill (b. 1795) and Thomas Hill (b. 1802). You can start to see where confusion may arise. This John Hill married Frances MOYLE (more kissin' cousins?) in 1822 and died in Adelaide in 1853 and is buried in West Terrace Cemetery.

What further confuses the research is that there were three marriages of a Peter Moyle and an Elizabeth in Wendron around the same time. [1] Peter & Elizabeth PERRY in 1830, [2] Peter and Elizabeth PASCOE in 1832 and [3] Peter and Elizabeth HILL in 1840. When searching the baptism records, only the mother's forename is used, so there were overlaps with the names in the baptism database. The only record I can find for a John born to a Peter and Elizabeth is in 1838 (I've sighted the actual record) and this would seem to me to be the son of either [1] or [2] (Unless of course my John Hill was born 10 years "premature". LOL)

The only John I can find baptised in 1848 in Wendron is to a John MOYLE and Elizabeth Jane (BOLITHO I think), so a middle name of Hill would not have been likely.

Now it gets really weird. According to WTC records, My John's mother Elizabeth is buried in Sec. 3, Path 2, Plot 42, next to her husband Peter in Plot 43. She is buried with Florence Jane MOYLE (1878-1878), who would seem to be her granddaughter by her son Peter AND THE OTHER JOHN HILL MOYLE ! ! ! (died 1853). I thought at first that this might be her grandson (yet another John Hill MOYLE) but he died in 1923 and is buried in Sec. Sturt, Path 9, Plot 22. Why would she be buried with what would appear to be a stranger with the same name as her son? His headstone clearly shows "death 1853 aged 53 years" (i.e. birth date of 1800).

The 1841 and 1851 census for Wendron show a John son of Peter and Elizabeth aged 3 and 13 respectively (i.e. birth date of 1838), but the ages of the parents don't match, being born c. 1891 and 1806 respectively and the siblings' names don't match with my research - but the 1851 census also shows a John son of Peter and Elizabeth aged 3 (i.e. birth date of 1848) with appropriate ages for parents and siblings' names match with my records.

I think I have gone about as far as I can go with searching public records, so now I need a family link to see if I can set the record straight. I found an excellent genealogy by Christine Uphill on freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry, but this is all about the 1800 John Hill.

Is there a Moyle descendant out there who can help? I need to verify the birth/baptism date of the John Hill Moyle who married Sarah Ann Fuller and died in 1827

Thanks,
Mike

[Cornish Terrier]

Mike - I have spent hours working on this problem and have found even more confusion with the possible parents of Peter Moyle and although I seem to have partially solved it there is still a lot of work to do.
You mentioned three Peter Moyle marriages where the wife was Elizabeth but in fact there is actually another that needs to be considered - Peter Moyle and Betsy Pascoe who married at Wendron in 1821. I mention this because all for families can be found in the 1851 Census with even Betsy Pascoe named as Elizabeth!
Now, I have actually narrowed things down and located the correct parents for your John Moyle and there are Peter Moyle and Elizabeth Hill as you thought. The baptism of John can be found in the Helston Wesleyan Circuit registers:-

John son of Peter and Elizabeth Moyle of Wendron born 27th February 1848 and baptised 25th June 1848 Helston Wesleyan Methodist Circuit

Peter Moyle and Betsy Pascoe seem to have had no children but the presence of their marriage and of them in the Census did serve to confuse things very nicely!
Peter Moyle who married Elizabeth Pascoe was born about 1789/90 and had nine children from 1832 to 1849. In fact his first son was illegitimate - Peter Moyle Pascoe baptised 6th October 1831 Wendron son of Elizabeth Pascoe, single woman - with his parents marrying the following year.
And Peter Moyle who married Elizabeth Perry was baptised at Wendron in 1807 to Peter and Mary Moyle.

Your Peter was baptised at Wendron 13th August 1816 to John and Ann Moyle and that is where the problem currently lies. Peter was of Glebe when he married so I have determined the identities of at least three siblings:-

1841 Census - Glebe, Wendron
Ann Moyle age 50
Thomas Moyle age 21
William Moyle age 17
Jane Moyle age 15

My problem is that these and another nine children were all baptised at Wendron to John and Ann Moyle of Wendron with the father a miner in each case. There are two possible marriages involved - 1. John Moyle and Ann Treloar in 1808 and 2. John Moyle and Ann Chesterfield in 1810. At the moment I favour the latter to be the parents of your Peter but I really can't be sure.

CT

[greyroamer]

May 6, 2016 9:25:55 GMT -5 Cornish Terrier said:

Now, I have actually narrowed things down and located the correct parents for your John Moyle and there are Peter Moyle and Elizabeth Hill as you thought. The baptism of John can be found in the Helston Wesleyan Circuit registers:-

John son of Peter and Elizabeth Moyle of Wendron born 27th February 1848 and baptised 25th June 1848 Helston Wesleyan Methodist Circuit.

Hi CT,

AHA! it would appear that not all of the non-conformist baptism registers have yet been transcribed to OPC. I did search OPC in the non-conformist baptisms, but got nothing. There only appear to be records from 1820 to 1837 transcribed. How on earth did you manage to track that reference down? (I ask in case I need to do a similar search in the future). I also couldn't find anything in FamilySearch collection of non-conformist baptisms.

Nice catch with Elizabeth/Betsy Pascoe, I didn't think to put variations or diminutives of the forename into the search engine, But where would you stop? Elizabeth/Eliza/Betsy/Betty/Beth/Liza/Bess are all variations on Elizabeth, and possibly more! I think that Peter/Betsy in 1821, like the two in 1830 and 1832 would be a bit early, as "my" John Hill's siblings didn't start appearing until 1842. I can't imagine a couple waiting at least 10 years, or in Betsy's case, 21 years, to start having a family.

Anyhoo, It would appear that you have found "my" John Hill Moyle's baptism, which was what I was really after. Now all I have to do is figure out the connection with the "other" JH (1800-1853) and how he turned up in "my" JH's mother Elizabeth Hill's grave??? I have a third cousin in Adelaide who descended from the Moyle branch of our family (JH's grandson Ernest, married my G-Grandmother's sister Ada Victoria Page) and she may have some family record of a connection.

I thought at first that perhaps the two Hill brides, Elizabeth and Mary may have been sisters or cousins, but their dob's would seem to indicate not. Elizabeth was born in 1819 to Thomas (? -dec'd) and Elizabeth (?Davy?) (?-dec'd) and Mary was born in 1773 to Samuel Hill (1738-1816) and Ann Treloar (1743-1835). What is interesting is that Mary had a brother, Thomas, born in 1775, who, if you hold your mouth just right and squint a bit with your left eye, could possibly be Elizabeth's father, making Mary, Elizabeth's aunt. Interesting that Mary's mother was Ann Treloar b. 1743 and Peter's mother was Ann Treloar b. 1785 - Are we sure we're talking about Cornwall and not Tasmania here?

You'll note that I favour Moyle-Treloar rather than Moyle-Chesterfield as Peter's parents, although either is possible. That is what FamilySearch gave me and who am I to argue. A minor point, but OPC shows the Moyle-Treloar marriage as 8-Nov-1806, not 1808 as you mentioned above. (or do you have an alternate record?)

Thanks for all the hard work, CT. I only wanted to verify JH's birth as 1848, but as usual, digging around in genealogy has opened up the proverbial can of worms.

Cheers,
Mike

[greyroamer]

May 6, 2016 9:25:55 GMT -5 Cornish Terrier said:

Your Peter was baptised at Wendron 13th August 1816 to John and Ann Moyle and that is where the problem currently lies. Peter was of Glebe when he married so I have determined the identities of at least three siblings:-

1841 Census - Glebe, Wendron
Ann Moyle age 50
Thomas Moyle age 21
William Moyle age 17
Jane Moyle age 15

CT, my research indicates that Peter had 10 siblings:-

Elizabeth b. 1807
John b. 1808
Richard b. 1811
Peter b. 1812 - d. 1813
Simon b. 1814
Edward b. 1817 d. 1901
Thomas b. 1819
Ann b. 1821 d. 1822
William b. 1824 d. 1876
Jane b. 1825

The last three fit your census citation and we can presume that the others had left home by that time (or were deceased as is the case of Peter jnr and Ann) and made their own way in the world. I feel sure that if anyone were to take the trouble (not this little black duck) we might find the others scattered around on the census, unless, of course, they emigrated.

The birth of children in 1807 and 1808, I feel, supports the parents marrying in 1806 (Moyle-Treloar) rather than 1810 (Moyle-Chesterfield) although who knows?

Mike

[greyroamer]

Regarding Peter MOYLE and Elizabeth PERRY above, this Peter was the son of Peter MOYLE (b. 1772) and Mary HILL and was born on 27 Apr 1807 in Wendron and was a brother of the "other" John Hill.

[Cornish Terrier]

How on earth did you manage to track that reference down?

Mike - I am fortunate enough to have copies of a lot of the Legacy CDs containing transcripts of Non-conformist registers and the Helston WM records is among them. These are in PDF format so are easy to search using CTRL+F.

I didn't think to put variations or diminutives of the forename into the search engine

With the OPC site it is quite easy to search for different names. In the case of Elizabeth you could simply search using the first letter of any variant names with 'E', 'B' and 'L' covering probably all known variations - Elizabeth, Eliz, Bessie, Betsy, Lizzie etc.
Alternately you can search on partial names using % as the wildcard - e.g. Be%y or Be%ie for Betsy, Bessie etc. or %liz should bring up all Eliz/Eliza/Elizabeth/Lizzie and so on.
You can use the wildcard (%) in any part of the name and one instance will cater for multiple characters.
Another alternative is to determine an approximate date range and search on all instances of the surname and in the case of Moyle you would need to search for 'mo%l' which covers Moyl, Moyle, Moil, Moile.

Now all I have to do is figure out the connection with the "other" JH (1800-1853) and how he turned up in "my" JH's mother Elizabeth Hill's grave???

I have other projects to work on but I will spend a little time to see if I can find an answer to this problem for you.

That is what FamilySearch gave me and who am I to argue.

- I am surprised and very disappointed with that remark! That is like taking the advice of someone who tells you to put on your shorts and thongs because it is 40 degrees and bright sunshine outside and then you walk the door to find three feet of snow!!!

In the case of John and Ann Moyle you need to stop and think for a few minutes! In Wendron the name John Moyle is just about as common as spuds on a potato farm and here we are dealing with TWO John Moyles in Wendron who each marry someone named ANN in Wendron within four years of each other and then there is a procession of children at Wendron baptised to parents JOHN and ANN! And two of those children are baptised in January and July of 1811 which is a fair indication they may not belong to the same family!!

This requires a lot more thought and work then simply believing everything thrown at you by FamilySearch which in my opinion is nothing more than a genealogical tool.

If you are happy to keep on believing FamilySearch then it seems a lot of my time may have been wasted. On the other hand this exercise has reminded me that I do eventually need to identify a John Moyle born at Wendron around 1810 as he married into a branch of my Trewhella family. That means that I need to try and sort out this particular problem in any case so anything I find that may be useful will be passed on.

Now that my periodical message about FamilySearch has been aired let's continue ..............

Moyle-Treloar marriage as 8-Nov-1806, not 1808 as you mentioned above. (or do you have an alternate record?)
Sorry, that is a typo on my part and should read 1806.

Are we sure we're talking about Cornwall and not Tasmania here?

Tasmania has nothing on Cornwall as far as instances of first-cousin marriages! I have an instance of four consecutive generations involving first-cousins marrying and in on generation three siblings of one family married three siblings of another with all being first-cousins.

AS regards the marriage of John Moyle to Ann Chesterfield - I believe I have found at least three descendants in Victoria. Of the many children baptised at Wendron to John and Ann Moyle there is a John baptised in 1815 and I believe it is probably this John Moyle who married Jane Ham at Redruth in 1835.
I have found seven children for this couple and of those I have found four, and possibly five, in Victoria.

In the OPC records there is the baptism of a Joseph Ham Christopher Moyle at Redruth in 1843. The name also appears exactly the same in the Bawden Transcripts of Redruth registers. However ...... BOTH ARE WRONG!!!

Although the handwriting is rather scrawly both the Redruth Parish Register and FreeBMD show the name as Joseph Ham CHESTERFIELD Moyle. The children for John and Jane are:-

1. John Edward bp. 18th May 1836 Redruth
(Jno Moyle age 59 died Tallangatta, Victoria 1895 - parents Jno Moyle and Jane Ham)
2. William bp. 3rd September 1835 Redruth
3. Mary Ann bp. 29th July 1838 Redruth
(married Thomas Hodge 1859)
4. Edward bp. 22nd March 1840 Redruth
(an Edward Moyle age 25, born England, parents unknown died Victoria 1866)
5. Joseph Ham Chesterfield Moyle bp. 15th October 1843 Redruth
(Joseph Moyle age 34, born Redruth, parents John Moyle and Jane Ham, died 1877 Victoria)
6. James Richard Ham Moyle bp. 16th September 1844 Redruth
7. Eliza Jane Ann bp. 3rd December 1848 Redruth
(Eliza Jane HAM Moyle, born Cornwall, married John Dale, born Cornwall, 1872 Victoria)

I will add another post shortly with a few remarks about the group of children baptised to John and Ann Moyle.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

CT, my research indicates that Peter had 10 siblings:-

Elizabeth b. 1807
John b. 1808
Richard b. 1811
Peter b. 1812 - d. 1813
Simon b. 1814
Edward b. 1817 d. 1901
Thomas b. 1819
Ann b. 1821 d. 1822
William b. 1824 d. 1876
Jane b. 1825

The last three fit your census citation and we can presume that the others had left home by that time (or were deceased as is the case of Peter jnr and Ann) and made their own way in the world. I feel sure that if anyone were to take the trouble (not this little black duck) we might find the others scattered around on the census, unless, of course, they emigrated.

The birth of children in 1807 and 1808, I feel, supports the parents marrying in 1806 (Moyle-Treloar) rather than 1810 (Moyle-Chesterfield) although who knows?

That there were children to John and Ann Moyle in 1807 and 1808 merely supports the fact that John Moyle and Ann Treloar had children and what you seem to be failing to comprehend is that any children baptised after 8th September 1810 when John Moyle and Ann Chesterfield were married could belong to EITHER of the two couples!
A further complication arises with the 1826 marriage of John Moyle and Ann Knuckey however that one is a little easier to resolve with children of theirs also found in Victoria.

As your Peter Moyle was born after both the 1806 and 1810 marriages his mother could be either Ann Treloar OR Ann Chesterfield and at the moment the only relationships that might be reasonably assumed are via the connections with Glebe in Wendron.

Some notes on the possible children:-
Elizabeth bp. 18th May 1807
- parents named only as 'John Moyle and his wife' so although she is the first Moyle who might belong to John Moyle and Ann Treloar there is no mother named in the record and at least 8 prior Wendron Marriages to which she could belong.

John bp. 27th December 1808
- he is almost certainly son of Ann Treloar but at the moment I have nothing further on him

Richard bp. 24th January 1811
- could belong to either Ann Treloar or Ann Chesterfield

William bp. 28th July 1811
- could also belong to either Ann Treloar or Ann Chesterfield

Peter bp. 17th December 1812
- probably a late baptism as he appears to be the Peter buried 26th December 1813 at Wendron age 2

Ann bp. 25th July 1813
- you have not mentioned her but she also could belong to either family. So far I have found no burial or marriage for her.

Simon bp. 17th November 1814
- he most likely belongs to Ann Treloar as the following child (below) is baptised just four months later and there is evidence to possibly link him to Ann Chesterfield

John bp. 27th March 1815
- possibly married Jane Ham at Redruth in 1835 and named son Joseph Ham Chesterfield Moyle so most likely son of Ann Chesterfield

Peter bp. 13th August 1816
- 'of Glebe' when he married so whilst he could belong to either family he is almost certainly linked with some of the children following

Edward bp. 21st September 1817
-

Thomas bp. 31st March 1819
- at Glebe in 1841 and 'of Glebe' when he married Mary Mankey at Wendron in 1844

Ann bp. 28th May 1821
- you claim Ann was buried in 1822 and of course there certainly is the burial of an Ann Moyle age 1 at Wendron in 1822. However you fail to note that there was also an Ann Moyle baptised in December 1821 at Wendron to Edward and Jane Moyle. That she was baptised in December does not mean she was born then so she could have been age 1 at the time of the burial. Also worth noting is that in 1823 an Edward and Jane Moyle of Wendron baptised another daughter named Ann at Stithians! From marriage records it appears that both these children probably belong to Edward Moyle and Jane Knuckey who married at Wendron in 1814. As with Ann in 1813 this Ann could belong to either family.

William bp. 6th May 1823
- at Glebe in 1841

Jane bp. 17th July 1825
- at Glebe in 1841

1841 Census
Glebe, Wendron
Ann Moyle 50
Thomas Moyle 21
William Moyle 17
Jane Moyle 15

Note that this Ann Moyle was age 50 in 1841. If her age was rounded down to the nearest five then she could have been born anytime from about 1786 to 1791 which would mean that if she were Ann Treloar she would have been age 15-20 at the time of marriage in 1806! I am therefore more inclined at this stage to consider that this was actually Ann Chesterfield.

I will leave you to ponder those thoughts for now and in the meantime I will try to find more information on the children that might help identify everyone correctly. If I get the chance I might also do some more work on another project I have been working on.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

I am at the point now where I am going round in circles and getting nowhere so I think it is time to take a rest from the Moyle saga for a while.

Before I take that break I will leave a couple of things for further consideration that I suspect are part of the overall problem.

South Australian and Victorian records show that children of John Moyle and Jane Ham came to Australia and that the name Chesterfield was used when naming some of their own children. This indicates the probability that they were descendants of John Moyle and Ann Chesterfield.
John Moyle and Jane Ham were both 'of Redruth' when they married there in 1835 and all their children were born in that same Parish. The fact there appears to have been no return to Wendron to baptise any children suggests John may have been living at Redruth for some time so the following items are interesting:-

1841 Census
Fore Street Redruth
John MOYLE, 50, copper miner
Ann MOYLE, 55

From Bawden's Transcripts
John Moyle of Pearce's Court age 58 buried 31st July 1845 Redruth

From FreeBMD
1847 - June Qtr
Vol 9 Page 155
Ann MOYLE

(Redruth R.D. covers much more than just Redruth but this is the only Death for an Ann Moyle after 1841 who could be the lady in that Census record. Unfortunately it is too early for her age to be recorded and I could find no record in the West Briton.)

Based on my tracking of the Chesterfield name it would suggest that the couple in the 1841 Census 'may be' John Moyle and Ann Chesterfield but there is simply not enough evidence to be certain. And without a baptism record for Ann Chesterfield it is even more difficult.

Back over at Wendron I found the following which 'could be' John Moyle and Ann Treloar but, once again, there is not sufficient supporting evidence to be certain.

John Moyle of Trenear age 47 buried 6th November 1827 Wendron
John Moyle of Garlidna age 52 buried 28th October 1840 Wendron

Of these I am more in favour of the early burial being the man we want as Garlidna seems more associated with other Moyles at the time.

Anne Moyle of Church Town Stamps Wendron age 57 buried 1st May 1844 Wendron

This is the only Ann Moyle buried at Wendron between 1841 and 1851 who could be the lady at Glebe in 1841.

There is still a lot of work to be done before any of these people might be positively identified but at least I think the field might have been narrowed a little. Each individual John Moyle born within a period from around 1770 to 1792 needs to be investigated and eliminated until the two we are looking for can be identified.

CT

[greyroamer]

CT, thanks for all the hard work.
Mike

[Cornish Terrier]

That's okay Mike. I have not given up on this altogether but I do need a break and have other things I am working on and I also still need to identify which John Moyle married into the Trewhella family!.

Ancestry Family Trees - Warning! - Last night I decided to have a look at some of the Ancestry Family Trees to see if I might find any more clues to identifying any of the John Moyles and also Ann Treloar and Ann Chamberlain. What I found, rather than clues, is a horrifying display of utter rubbish! As usual, most are copied from one unidentifiable source and some have their own embellishments but one consistent theme is that the John Moyle who married Ann Chesterfield was widowed and then married a Jane Moyle in 1817.
Now the one thing that could make me suspect this might have been the case is that the sign made by John Moyle when he married Ann Chesterfield in 1810 and the sign made by the John Moyle who married Jane Moyle in 1817 are remarkably similar albeit slightly different. What none of these family trees takes into account is 1. there is NO BURIAL for any Ann Moyle who might have been Ann Chesterfield and 2. the fact that there is evidence in the Census suggesting both Ann Treloar and Ann Chesterfield were still living in 1841.

My advice - if you have not already done so then certainly DO NOT bother looking at this conglomeration of unadulterated rubbish or you will end up much more confused than you might already be! Let's stick to what facts are available and see what we can make of those.

CT