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Post by penny72 on May 19, 2015 5:12:42 GMT -5
Hello,
My name is Penny and I'm descended from the Bryants of Lelant, John Grenfell and Margaret Bray (two of my great grandparents descend from this couple), Pascoe Grenfell and Cordelia Giles (who I understand descend from Hercules Glanfield and Jane Busvargus) and William Trembath and Agnes Hagar Victor. Other names in my tree include Webber and Trezise. My grandmother was Marjorie Trezise, daughter of Albert Richard E Trezise and Beatrice Clatworthy and my grandfather was Joseph Bryant, son of Joseph Bryant and Mary Grenfell.
I have seen stated that John Ots (Oates) who married Mary Cock, descends from grandparents John Otts and Margaret Grenville. I wondered if anyone can confirm that.
Would love to hear from anyone else who has information on the family trees I've mentioned.
Kind regards,
Penny
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Post by gandolf on May 19, 2015 7:49:47 GMT -5
Hi Penny
Welcome to the site from a (somewhat distant) cousin.
I suspect we share considerable overlap in ancestry, since I am also descended from John Grenfell/Grenfield and wife Alice Oats through Pascoe's sister, Mary Grenfield. Mary married John Trembath/Trenbath of St. Just in Penwith, so there is further scope for crossover there.
As to whether John Ots/Oates (husband of Mary Cock) is descended from John Otts and Margaret Grenvill...
As it happens, in just the last few months I was in contact with John Tanner, who did much original research on the early Grenfell/Grenville family in Cornwall and possible connections with the Ots/Oates family. John provided me a copy of his original thesis from a decade ago, and it is clear that this document is the source of various online trees that in one form or another make various attempts to connect the Grenfield and Ots/Oates families.
While still remaining a little cautious not to state his data as definitively proven, John Tanner's research makes a very strong case (and I personally think close to undoubted) to believe that Hercules Grenfield (husband of Jane Busvargus) is the great-grandson of Richard Grenville, son of Degory Grenville as follows: Richard Grenville & Margaret Williams (mistress not wife) Margaret Grenville & John Otes John Otes/Grenfell & Margaret Udye Hercules Grenfield (Grenfell) & Jane Busvargus
The question of the origin of John Ots(Otes) who married married Mary Cock is a little more up in the air.
At first glance John Ots looks like he might be the same person as the husband of Margaret Udye and father of Hercules. However there is a burial in 1623 which appears to be that John buried as a Grenf___d so that would seem to eliminate him. Even if the burial was not him, it would not explain why he had two separate families, the first as Grenfell/Grenfield and the second as Ots (a name he seemed to be giving up). The John Otes, son of the Hercules Otes who married Jane Trelill is an outside candidate, but Hercules appears to have married too late (1616) to have a son who in turn married in 1629.
So the origin of John Ots would seem to be up in the air at the momement.
John's wife Mary Cock is a more interesting proposition however. I believe Mary Cock is almost certainly the daughter of Thomas Cock and Margaret Williams who married at St. Just in 1599. Which raises the question is whether there is any connection (same person perhaps?) between this Margaret Williams, and the Margaret/Margery Williams [wife of Richard Grenville] that John Tanner mentions in his thesis as the sister of Bastian Williams.
While it seems that John Otts and Mary Cock (like many Cornish families) did not follow a traditional naming pattern, in the light of John Tanner's thesis and the names of known Grenville/Grenfell descendants, it is interesting to note the names John Ots and Mary Cock's children: Richard 1630 Margaret 1632 Ann 1635 Julian/Juliana 1637 (wife of Pascow Grenfell, son of Hercules) Prudence 1638 John 1639 Thomas 1642 Matthias 1645 James 1648 (A granddaughter of Richard (1630) later married the grandson of Juliana & Pascow.)
The names Richard, Margaret & Julian/Juliana suggest a strong possibility of a connection back to the Grenville/Oats/Williams intersection in the Granville/Grenfell tree.
While I have no proof at this time, I suspect the Margaret Williams who married Thomas Cock could well be related to the Margaret Williams or Bastian Williams connected with the Granvilles/Grenfells?
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Post by penny72 on May 21, 2015 11:43:47 GMT -5
Many thanks for your reply.
Kind regards,
Penny
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Post by penny72 on May 25, 2015 5:23:46 GMT -5
Just to add that John Tanner states that John Oats/Otts worked for William Carnsew and that Carnsew is described as a close friend of the Grenvilles. They were more than close friends, through Digorie's wife Mary Cavell, Richard Grenville (Digorie's son) was a cousin of William Carnsew. Mary Cavell being the sister of Isabel Cavell who married William Carnsew Senior.
Penny
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Post by penny72 on May 25, 2015 14:29:05 GMT -5
The Otts, Cocks and Grenvilles / Granvilles are also connected through the Godolphin family. Sir Francis Godolphin, mentioned in the will of John Otts (Oats)Senior, was nephew of Elizabeth Godolphin. Mary Cock (wife of John Ots b. 1550)was Elizabeth Godolphin's G.G. granddaughter. In addition, Sir Francis Godolphin's second wife was Alice Skerret, widow of John Granville M.P.
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Post by gandolf on May 27, 2015 7:20:54 GMT -5
Hi Penny
I have to admit that having been sidetracked onto other lines just after my contact with John Tanner, I therefore didn't do a huge amount of further deep research at the time, but as a result of your posts have gone back to take a closer look.
The records show that Mary Cavell was not actually the sister of Isabel Cavell, but rather Mary was the great-niece of Isabel.
While there were indeed connections between the families of Grenville, Cavell and Carnesew, like so many Cornish families it is "complicated". Pulling together the hints from various lineages in the Visitations of Cornwall, I see the connections as follows (you may need to show full screen to see chart correctly):
Thomas Roscarrock ? - aft.1434 | ________________ | | Thomas Katherine == Nicholas Cavell ==(2 Alice Trecarren 1)== Richard Carnesew Roscarrock Roscarrock | | | c.1397 - ? | | | | Isabel Cavell Henry Cavell William Carnesew == Isabel Cavell John Roscarrock (wife of Wm ? - 1485 | (see at left) c.1448 - ? Carnesew at right) | | | | Eliz'th ==(2 William Carnesew 1)== Jane Shereton | | Trengose | ? - aft.1485 | John Roscarrock Nicholas Cavell | Sheriff Cornwall 1478 | | 1475 - aft.1524 Sir Thos |_____________ Jane Carnesew | | Grenville | (m. Richard Langdon) |___________________ | _____|_________________ |____ (see chart below) | | | | | Agnes Greville ==(1 John 2)==(1 Mary 2)==(1 Digory 2)== Phillipa Agnes == John William Carnesew (dau of Sir Thos, Rescarrock | Cavell Grenville | Gough Grenville | Fites ? - 1530 sister of Digory ? - 1587 | | | | & Agnes at right) | | | | Richard Grenville Honor Fitz (Fites) == William Carnesew | |
This comment rather intrigued me since I had previously hit a brick wall on the Cock family.
On following up on your comment, I can find online trees that seem to show what you are talking about, with a lineage that seems to run: Sir William Godolphin Elizabeth Godolphin (c.1510-1550) mar. John Langdon Margaret Langdon (c.1536-1571) mar. John Cock (c.1534-1601) John Cock (c.1550-1601) (spouse unknown) Thomas Cock (c.1585-?) mar. 1599 Margaret Williams Mary Cock (c.1604-1664) mar. 1628 John Otes (c.1600-1665)
While I can find partial support for some of the above lineage, it looks to me suspiciously like there is a spurious generation (the John with unknown spouse) that has been added in. I cannot so far find any evidence to directly support his existence. There is support from Visitations for the lineage (without dates) down to Margaret Langdon married to John Cock. And there is a will dated 1601 for a John Cock with son Thomas, who might plausibly have been born around 60 years earlier. That would then potentially make son Thomas born say 1570's and about the right age to be marrying in 1599.
So I see the line as potentially being similar to the following, which has partial support.
Sir William Godolphin ? - 1570 | _____________________________________________ | | William == Blanch John == Elizabeth Godolphin | Langdon Langdon | Godolphin | (sister of John) (bro. of Blanch) | | 1508 - ? | | ___________________________ | | Jane Carnesew == Richard Langdon Margaret Langdon == John Cock (see tree above) c.1540 - ? | c.1540 - 1601 | Margaret Williams == Thomas Cock | John Otes == MaryCock
I should add that despite most of this information being based on the Visitations of Cornwall, they are far from being 100% reliable and have known errors in them. In the case of the two partial trees shown above, there is is at least one possible anomaly that needs further checking.
In the first tree above (based largely on the Carnesew tree in Visitations), the Jane Carnesew who marries Richard Langdon was likely born in the late 1400's, possibly no later than say 1485. Yet the second tree (based on the Langdon tree in Visitations) states fairly clearly that Richard Langdon's father was born about 1508 (aged 40 in 1548 when his own father died). Clearly if Richard Langdon was not born until 1525-1530 at the earliest, then he is very unlikely to be fathering children on a woman born up to 50 years before his own birth!
Assuming Jane's father was indeed William Carnesew (as seems likely) then she was probably the daughter either of the William Carnesew who died in 1530 (shown above as her half brother) or perhaps that William's son William (who married Agnes Fites).
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Post by gandolf on May 29, 2015 9:01:32 GMT -5
Well I think I can answer your original question now Penny. As best I can determine, given the scarcity of early St. Just in Penwith baptisms, I believe the answer is almost certainly YES, that is that the John Otts who married Mary Cock is almost certainly a grandchild of John Otts & Margaret Grenville. The link is, I think, the will of John Otts (husband of Margaret Grenville) dated 1608. which names a number of his children directly. Towards the end of the will there is a further bequest to one James Otts alias Winter. While it is only a small bequest in relation to the other family members, it would seem likely that James must be a relative. Now there is a James Otts who married two years earlier in St. Just who is likely the same person, and putting it all together suggests a high likelihood that James Otts alias Winter is a younger son of John Otts (d. 1608/9) the maker of the will. While four of his children appear in the baptismal records between 1613 and 1620, James undoubtedly had more children between 1606 and 1613. As he is the only viable candidate to be the father of the John Otts who married Mary Cock, and married the right time for his eldest son to be the John who married Mary, and it is probable that this is indeed the case - not 100% proven, but in the absence of available records plausible and reasonable. Below is how I currently see the family connections, coming down several generations into my line. Margaret Greville== John Otes alias Watts | ? - 1608/9 ____________|______________ | | Margaret Udye == John Otes/Grenfell James Otts (alias Winter) == Christian Pascow | ? - 1623 ? - 1653 | ? - 1670 | | Hercules Grenfield == Jane Busvargus Mary Cock == John Otts ? - aft.1637 | ? - 1637 c.1604 - 1664 | c.1607 - 1665 | _________________|_____ | | | Paskow Grenfield == Julian (Juliana) Otts Richard Oates == Alse (Alice) Worden c.1636 - 1664/5 | c.1637 - 1714 c.1630 - 1662 | c.1633 - 1711 | ______________|_____ | | | Mary Gilbert == John Grenfield Prudence Adams == Richard Oates Anthony Oates == Jane Bennet c.1665 - 1731 | c.1662 - 1729 c.1661 - 1743 | c.1658 - 1707 c.1659 - 1714 | c.1667 - 1711 | | |______ _______| ________________________| Edmund Nicholas == Margaret Daniel | | | ______________|_____ | | | | | | John Grenfield == Alice Oates Richard Treeve== Elizabeth Nicholas Margaret Nicholas == James Oates c.1700 - 1750 | c.1699-1754 c.1718 - 1779 | c.1719 - 1794 c1712 - 1760 | c.1709 - 1763 | |_____________ ______| | | | Mary Grenfield == John Trembath Margaret Treeve == Richard Oates c.1729 - ? | c.1738 - ? c.1750 - 1805 | c.1750 - 1820 | | Ann Trembath == Richard Eddy ________________________| c.1762 - 1800 | c.1751 - 1816 | | | Edward Eddy == Margaret Oates 1791 - 1861 | c.1789 - 1875 |
Probably what is most surprising about the tree above (even to me) is the astonishing level of close family marriages. Even by the standards of Cornish practice of "keeping it in the family" this is still pretty impressive
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Post by gandolf on May 29, 2015 18:11:06 GMT -5
Further support for James Otts alias Winter being a son of John Otts alias Watts and wife Margaret Grennville is in the Easter Book of St. Just. John Otes of Bosswen is listed almost every year between 1588-1596. This is undoubtedly John Otts alias Watts since he mentions "The rest of all the goods in Beswedden or elsewhere" being divided between his main beneficiaries, wife Margaret and son John. Beswedden is surely the same place as Bosswen.
The Easter Book entry for 1590 shows James Otts of Bosswen paying 2d at the same time as John Otts of Bosswen pays 4d
One further observation (or perhaps note of caution) regarding the above post regarding James Otts alias Winter being the probable father of John Otts (husband of Mary Cock).
Although not included in his tree outline by John Tanner in his thesis, those same transcripts from the Easter Book of St. Just do show the existence of an adult Richard Otts/Otes in St. Just in Penwith at the end of the 16th century. -Richard Otes of Bosswen pays 2d in 1589 -Richard Otes of Bosswen pays 4d in 1593 -Richard Otes of Bolohall pays 4d in 1594 -Richard Otes of Keniggiack pays 4d in 1596
The fact that Richard Otes was at Bosswen, would indicated that he is another son of John Otts alias Watts.
There is a burial of what appears to be an adult Richard Otes (no qualifications as to son) at St. Just in Penwith in 1614. Although possibly completely unrelated, there is a marriage given as 1613/14 of a "Catherine Otts or Saundry" to John Phillips. There is an outside chance - depending on exact dates involved (more checking required) - that Catherine was the widow of Richard.
Although I have not located a marriage (possibly due to gaps in the early St. Just records), the movement of Richard Otes from Bosswen between 1593 and 1594 might well indicate that he married at that time. If so (and it remains unproven) this Richard Otes could just possibly be the father of John Otts (husband of Mary Cock).
In the absence of supporting evidence for his marriage, Richard Otts remains the less likely candidate compared to his presumed brother James Otts alias Winter. However even if Richard does eventually prove a better candidate, the main thrust would remain unchanged in that both Richard and James are almost certainly brothers and therefore both sons of John Otts alias Watts and wife Margaret Grenville.
However, I still feel that the more likely connection is as previously posted - i.e. that James (not Richard) is John Otts father. The names of the children of John Otts and Mary Cock provide indirect support, in that they could possibly be explained as follows (given the relatively high status of the Grenville connections), although of course there may well be other reasons for the names. Richard - after Richard Grenville (great-grandfather of John Otts) Margaret - after Margaret Grenville (grandmother of John Otts) or Margaret Langdon (great-grandmother of Mary Cock) Ann - ?? Julian/Juliana - after Julian Grenville (great-aunt of John Otts, sister of Margeret Grenville) Prudence - ?? John - after John Otes als Watts (grandfather of John Otts), or after John himself Thomas - ?? (a big stretch, but perhaps after Thomas Grenville, great-great uncle of John Otts?) Matthias - ?? James - after James Otts als Winter, father of John Otts (i.e. this James' grandfather)
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Post by lipkatatar on May 30, 2015 15:56:26 GMT -5
I think it is extremely unlikely that either the James or the Richard Otes mentioned in the St Just Easter Books were the sons of John and Margaret. In 1589 Richard and in 1590 James are recorded as being widowers: paying 2d meant that the individual was a head of household who was a widow or widower. In 1593 Richard is paying 4d which means he has by then remarried, but he is recorded as being an employee, earning 20s a year. It is unlikely, though not impossible, that this James was the same one who married in 1606. Possibly, this Richard and James may have been brothers of John.
What is the source that has John's wife Margaret as a Grenville?
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Post by gandolf on May 30, 2015 19:00:12 GMT -5
Hi lipkatatar
Thanks for the correction. Not having access to the actual book I wasn't aware of the specific differences between the payments of 4d and 2d - namely that the 2d payment indicated a widow/widower. I was working with the transcript in John Tanner's thesis "Early Grenfells In West Cornwall". which as mentioned above is the reason for matching John Otts alias Watts with Margaret Grenville. The records I was working for were his transcripts for the Oats/Otes name and didn't mention the specific difference, at that point in the document, instead referring to an earlier section. And for some reason (perhaps due to jumping backwards and forwards in the document?) I had missed the line that Tanner had included in the earlier section on the Grenfield/Grenfell transcript from the Easter Books which specified the payments as:
"The money due was 1d for unmarried adults, 2d for widowers and widows, and 4d for married couples. The transcript gives the amount only when it is 2d or 4d".
Since the Easter Books indicate James Otes was a widower in 1590, it does suggest that my original thoughts on him being potentially the son of John Otts alias Watts and wife Margaret are very suspect, and that he was more plausibly a brother of John Otts. While it is possible that he was the same James Otes who married Christian Pascow in 1606, it is far less likely that (though still not completely impossible chronologically) they are the same person.
As best I can determine, the James Otts who married Christian Pascow in 1606 was buried in 1653. To be a widower in 1590 would mean he was born by say 1574 at the very latest and quite possibly a decade or more earlier. For the two James Otts to actually be the same person would mean that James was at least eighty years or even much older at death - not impossible but sufficiently unusual to require a second look.
So it does raise the question - which James Otts (widower in 1590, married in 1606, or are they the same person) is the James Otts alias Winter mentioned in the will of John Otes alias Winter in 1608?
Because Tanner's focus was more toward explaining the origins of all the Grenfield/Greenfield/Grenfell and variant families in West Penwith he touched on the Otts/Otes/Oates family only because he believes (and I feel makes a very strong case) that the Grenfell etc families are descended from John Otes alias Watts and wife Margaret, who John believes to be the illegitimate but acknowledge daughter of Richard Grenville via a mistress (rather than Richard's wife Florence Kellaway).
Having just come across your post from last year saying you had aquired a copy of the transcript of the St. Just Easter Books. And I see from a reference you posted to an example page that the Easter books apparently often included the names of many more adult members of the household other than just the people paying the Easter tithe.
lipkatatar, given you have a copy of the Easter Book transcripts, can I ask whether there are others listed for the locales where the Otes name is recorded and if so who they are and whether relationships are detailed (This may assist with sorting out the whole mess)
For the Otes (& variants) name, John Tanner listed only the names of those paying the tithe: Bolohall 1594 Richard Otes 4d Bosswen 1588 missing 1589 John Otes 4d Richard Otes 2d 1590 John Otes 4d James Otes 2d 1591 John Otes 4d 1592 John Otes 4d 1593 John Otes 4d Richard Otes 4d (wages 20s) 1594 John Otes 4d 1595 missing 1596 John Otes 4d Keniggiack 1592 John Grainfield 4d 1596 Richard Otes 4d
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Post by lipkatatar on May 31, 2015 7:02:36 GMT -5
There is some inconsistency in the way that individuals in a paricular locality are recorded in the Easter Books.
Sometimes there is a single column listing all individuals in a locality and other times there is a breakdown within localities based on what appear to be household or family units.
I have given the details for the Otes Cock and Grainfield/Glanfield based on these smaller units.
The author of the transcription notes that he has omitted the 1d payment for those not paying 2d or 4d.
Otes
Bosween
1589 John Otes 4d Richard Otes 2d Robarte Thomas Marian, maid servant John Adam, Scholar
1590 John Otes 4d James Otes 2d Margaret Tremear
1591 John Otes 4d Marian Williams (wages 12s.)
1592 John Otes 4d Jane Ambrose
1593 John Otes 4d Jenny Heire Richard Otes 4d
1594 John Otes 4d Jenny Heire
1596 John Otes 4d Jenny Heire
Bollohall
1594 Marga. Carallack William Carallack his brother Thomas Richard Otes 4d Robarte Stautiforth 2d Jone Serle Anes Serle vid. 2d
Keniggiack
1596 Margaret Ambrose Jane Ambrose Benett the Miller 4d Phillipp his brother Richard Otes 4d
Cock
Beskassell
1589 John Cock 4d Thomas Matthewe 4d (cliff fish.) Alson Cock Thomas Cock Nicholas Cock John Walden vid. 2d.
1590 John Cock 4d Thomas Matthewe 4d (cliff fish.) Alson Cock Thomas Cock Nicholas Cock Jo. Walden vid. 2d.
1591 John Cock 4d Thomas Matthewe 4d Alson Cock Thomas Cock Nicholas Cock Jo. Walden vid. 2d.
1592 John Cock 4d John Walden vid. 2d Thomas Cock Katherin, servant maid (wages 13s.4d.) Nicholas Cock Thomas Matthewe 4d (cliff fish.)
1593 John Cock 4d John Walden vid. 2d Thomas Cock Nicholas Cock Thomas Matthewe 4d (cliff fish.) Elizabeth, servant maid
1594 Jo. Walden vid. 2d John Cock 4d Thomas Cock Nicholas Cock Alson, filia vid. 2d Thomas Matthewe 4d (cliff fish.)
1596 John Walden vid. 2d John Cock 4d Nicholas Cock 4d Thomas Cock Alson Cock, vid. (mar, at Synen) Thomas Matthewe 4d Ebby, servant
Grainfield/Glanfield
Treofall
The sub-groupings within the entry for Treoffall seem to change from year to year. Martin Glanfield is always associated with a Bastian William, his widowed mother, Margaret and their servant, John Veean. From 1587-1593 Martin is single and in 1592 is referred to as a "boardman"- that is someone living and working like a family menber without formal wages. In 1595 Martin is paying the 4d rate of a married man.
John Grainfield appears to be associated with Bastian William in 1588, 1589 (as a boardman), 1590 as a married man, and 1592 as a single man (possibly a transcription eror). In 1591, 1593 and 1595 he does not share the Bastian William grouping but is recorded as paying 4d.
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Post by lipkatatar on May 31, 2015 10:10:07 GMT -5
Marg. vid. of Treoffall may well be a Margery rather than a Margaret, which could possibly make her the Margery Trengove referred to in the Visitations who married a Giles/George Grenvile.
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Post by lipkatatar on Jun 1, 2015 5:39:33 GMT -5
I came across the quotation below on a Grenfell family history website. If the deed of 1583 referred to below can be verified then it clearly identifies the "Marg. vid." of the Easter Books. as a Glandfelde/Grenfield, either by birth or marriage. In the Visitations of Cornwall, Vivian gives his source for a Trengove-Grenfield marriage as a "fine" (property transaction) from 1&2 Philip and Mary (1554-56). Margery of the 1583 deed could possibly be the Margery who married a Trengove, or possibly her daughter or daughter-in-law. I am not sure of the relation ship between Margery, Bastian William and John Glandfelde - possibly the deed of 1583 would clarify this point. Perhaps John Tanner's research could help us? " Prior to this, in 1583, there is said to have been a Deed in which John Nance of Illogan conveyed to Bastian Williams, Margerye Glandfelde and John Glandfelde a tenement at Truthwell. Some have believed that Margerye was indeed Margery Trengove, a cousin of John Nance, who married into the Grenville family. In the pedigree of the Grenville family in Vivian's Visitation of the Heralds of 1620, Marga Trengove was shown to be married to George Grenville of Penheale. However the pedigree of the Trengrove family says that Margaret Trengrove married Giles Grenville, from another branch of the family. Recently, John Tanner (see below) has discovered that the original Foot of Fine quoted as a source confirms that it was Giles, not George that Margaret married. Both branches, however, are descended from Sir Thomas Grenville (1460-1513) of Stowe." www.grenfellhistory.co.uk/origins.php
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Post by gandolf on Jun 2, 2015 7:41:34 GMT -5
Firstly, my thanks to lipkatatar for the transcripts from the Easter Books, which have proved both promising and also frustrating. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I have assumed that the abbreviation vid. in the various records is short for the Latin words viduus (male) or vidua (female) - typically translated as meaning widow or widower. I'll start with the promising group - those dealing with the Cock family.......... There is a partial transcript (apparently the original is poor quality) on the West Penwith Resources website of the the Will of John Cock of St. Just in Penwith which was written/proved in 1601. In that will John Cock names the following people: - his son Thomas Cock - his son Nicholas Cock - his daughter Alson - his daughter (unnamed) married to Thomas Matthew - his granddaughter Matthew (unnamed dau of Thomas Matthew) - the wife of James Harrys(?) - presumably another daughter of John Cock - a godson John Harry(?) - probably the son of James Harrys - another godson John --etten(?) (relationship if any unclear) - Martyn Edwarde (relationship if any unclear) The Easter book transcripts above from lipkatatar are clearly for the above family. Using the first 1589 entry as an example: John Cock 4d | Maker of the 1601 will | Thomas Matthewe 4d (cliff fish.) | son-in-law of John Cock | Alson Cock | daughter of John Cock | Thomas Cock | son of John Cock | Nicholas Cock | son of John Cock | John Walden vid. 2d. | ?? |
It is just possible that John Walden is the father of the second godson (John --etten), allowing for possible mis-transcriptions of a hard to read surname on the will. What is less clear is whether John Walden is another son-in-law of John Cock. Although it is tempting to assume so (and may well be the case), a note of caution is necessary given the presence of servants in later years. However John Walden is listed every single year, inclining me towards thinking he is probably an (unproven) son-in-law to John Cock The Easter Book records also fit well with the proposed Cock tree that I posted above. As Thomas Cock, son of John Cock is is named in 1589, this would indicate that he was an adult by that year, as indeed presumably are his brother and sister Nicholas and Alson. And since adult typically meant 21 or over, this would seem to indicate that Thomas and his siblings were born by 1568 at the latest - thus making Thomas older than a lot of other researchers have assumed based only on his marriage in 1599. And if Thomas was born by the late 1560's this fits nicely with his parents being John Cock and Margaret Langdon, who (as per the tree above) were likely born in or around the 1530s. It would seem to utterly disprove the lineage proposed/recorded by some researchers that tries to squeeze an extra generation in by making each generation barely 15 years long!
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Post by gandolf on Jun 2, 2015 8:21:53 GMT -5
The frustrating group is the section of records relating to the Otes family at Bosween. There is almost nothing in the records that I can see to show any family relationships. The only one that could "perhaps" be implied is that Richard Otes and James Otes are possibly brothers of John Otes, based on the fact that the payment amounts indicate that Richard and James were both widowed by 1590. The lack of any indication of extended family (sons/daughters) for John Otes is probably due to the fact that his children (known and unknown) were still likely under 21 years of age at 1596. -------------- For the moment I have thrown open once more the parentage of the John Otts who married Mary Cock in 1628. As I currently see it, there are three possibilities at the moment (unknown others also perhaps?): 1. John Otts is the son of Richard Otes - possible brother of John Oates/GrenfellThis option is certainly possible, especially if you allow John Otts and Mary Cock to follow a more or less traditional naming pattern with their children (which was often not the case in Cornwall). If you follow this option the following is a plausible explanation of the children's names: Richard | after father's father? | Margaret | after mother's mother? | Ann | perhaps after unknown wife of Richard, i.e. father's mother | Julian/Juliana | perhaps after her otherwise unknown aunt?? | Prudence | perhaps after her otherwise unknown aunt?? | John | after father | Thomas | after his mother's father | Matthias | perhaps after his otherwise unknown uncle?? | James | perhaps after his otherwise unknown uncle?? |
The only question is why no child named after her mother - perhaps there is another we don't know about? 2. John Otts is a son of James Otes alias Winter - possible brother of John Oates/GrenfellSimilar possibility to option 1, but without the clear traditional naming pattern for the children. 3. John Otts is a younger son of John Otes/Grenfell and presumed wife Margaret UdyeThis is perhaps the less likely option, since John & Margaret are believed to be the parents of another son John - who was known as John Grenfell. However this was a period in time when it was not uncommon to have two children in the same family with the same name. Under this scenario, one son (perhaps the "younger"?) John takes the Grenfell name since his father was changing to that. However, the other son (perhaps because he was the "older"?) John reverts back to (or perhaps stays with) the Otts/Otes surname.
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