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Post by jennymee on Apr 13, 2015 3:02:07 GMT -5
I have just joined, after years of researching my forebears named above.
Whitford: my grandfather William Whitford emigrated to South Australia in late 1880s. His father was also William Whitford, married to Jane Berryman (second wife) from Newlyn East/Perranzabuloe.
Julian: my great great-grandfather Edward Julian emigrated with parents John Julian and Mary Ann nee Lanyon, from St Just I think. John J appears to be illegitimate, so I've only got his mother's side.
Vial and Mill: Eliza Vial (Vile on MC), born Crowan I think, married John Mill, of Illogan I think, in Liskeard. They emigrated to SA. Their daughter Eliza Jane Mill was my great grandmother. These Vials thought of themselves as having Spanish blood, as some Cornish apparently do. Eliza and her children were dark haired and a bit swarthy looking.
Any info, particularly of the earliest times, would be most welcome. Particularly trying to get back beyond Annanias Vioall and Grace (nee ?). I am in SA, but have visited Cornwall in the past. We have quite a big community of Cornish-background people here, and were raised making pasties etc. There is a Cornish festival annually in the 'Little Cornwall' area.
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Post by spikeharwood on Apr 13, 2015 6:31:09 GMT -5
Hi Jennymee
Welcome to the Penwith Board. I was interested in your family names. I too have Julians but it seems a different branch, the Hannibal Julian/Johns. There seems no obvious connection between yours and mine. My lot are from Mawgan and St Martin in Meneage. They all seemed to have arrived in SA within a few years of each other. I envy you going to Cornwall. The best I can do is watch Poldark, lol. My cousin is OS atm doing Ireland and Penzance - weird combination, but.
I too am in SA but was born in Broken Hill, with my mothers side all from Cornwall. I think the Cornish Festival is next month. I've not been before but I might get there this year.
I have access to a lot of SA records if you need anything in that department. There are a lot of people on here with detailed knowledge of all things Cornwall. If you have any info on dates, census, births etc post all of that and others can point you in the right direction to assist with your research.
Cheers
Spike
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Post by jennymee on May 30, 2015 0:52:51 GMT -5
Hi Spike, thanks for replying - I didn't even think to check.
It's annoying not being able to just drive over to the Cornish villages and spend the afternoon looking around, isn't it.
I'll keep an eye out for info. I do have one bit of guesswork I thought I'd like to pass by someone in this group - who does the checking and comments?
Warm regards, Jenny
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Post by jennymee on May 30, 2015 1:08:28 GMT -5
I would like to pass the following for the consideration of your checkers in this organisation.
As mentioned in my first post, I wanted to go back beyond Ananias Viall and his marriage to Grace, at Crowan on 13 Sep 1690.
Noting that their son Robert was baptised as Biner als Vial, I searched for possible Grace Biner as mother, since I noticed that both mother's and father's surnames often followed people at that time, and did not necessarily suggest illegitimacy as I first had thought.
I came up with Grace Baynard/Bynard bap 26 Oct 1672 in Sancreed, parents Robert and Thomasin.
This fits date-wise with Ananias' wife Grace, and there weren't any other Grace's at that time that did fit.
Then for Ananias, I took what is basically a guess, and gave him Hercules Vill as a father -there is no bap for Ananias, but Hercules did have an unnamed son at around the time Ananias would have been born, ie around 1671. William, Hercules, John and Thomas were the other children of Hercules and Ann (at Stithians), and by their baptisms, Vill was being spelt Veal/Veale.
Can someone please have a look and tell me what you think?
I am sure some other Ananias Viall-seekers would be interested too.
Thanks.
Jenny Mee
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 30, 2015 7:29:46 GMT -5
Sorry, but no cigar! There is just enough legible in that Stithians entry and although the left side of the page is torn and fragmented at that point the last letter of the forename is still visible ......... and the name ends with a ' d'. So it could be David, Edmond, Edward for example but certainly not Ananias. And just how do you know that about 1671 is about the time Ananias would have been born?  Not everyone married between 18 and 25 and many did not marry until their 30s or 40s. And have you considered that this may not have been a first marriage for Ananias? You should also be extremely careful how you go about selecting 'suitable' records that suit your purpose! This one I think was probably from FamilySearch/IGI so the first thing you need to do is try and get a look at the original document. And that particular record is available via the FamilySearch Cornwall collection where you can actually see an image of the original page. As for wife Grace - well once again this is obviously straw-clutching.  As I pointed out to another member recently, it is a good idea to familiarize yourself with the geography of Cornwall before trying to link a person from (e.g.) Sancreed to someone in (e.g.) Crowan. People certainly could be found a long way from 'home' even in those days but if you find someone of 'potential interest' there is a lot of work to be done before you start making links. You need to investigate the Parish of origin of that person and search to see if perhaps that person died young or married in or near their home parish. The biggest thing to be aware of is the availability of Parish Registers and other documents. For example, the earliest extant register for Crowan begins at 1691 with any earlier registers now lost. And that first volume is fragmented and water-damaged to a great extent and is most difficult to read with many, many entries totally illegible or lost. There are Bishops Transcripts from 1674 but they do not cover every year and there may be an earlier set of BTs held at Exeter but they also do not cover every year. Just because you cannot find what you want at Crowan it does not necessarily mean that the person you are looking for must have come from elsewhere. The most likely reason you cannot find them is that the records simply no longer exist. Have you tried searching for Wills for your family? Wills and Land records are often a great source of information that might help fill gaps created by missing registers. CT |
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Post by jennymee on May 31, 2015 3:43:47 GMT -5
Thanks, Cornish Terrier. I can cross Ananias off from Hercules as father then. I still think my guess about Grace Baynard might fit. You seem to be assuming that people haven't thought of some of things you mentioned, for example ages and possible first marriages etc. Not so. Likewise about familiarity with the region. No need to be condescending to people who are thousands of miles away - these are still our forebears, we were still raised as 'Cornish' and we are trying to find out about their lives. I have found sometimes that trying to go further back by 'clutching at straws' results in a successful identification through other sources - not always, but sometimes. Which is why I asked for someone to check. I didn't ask for all the rudeness that went along with your answer! Sincere thanks for your information anyway. You are indeed lucky to have access to it. Jenny Sorry, but no cigar! There is just enough legible in that Stithians entry and although the left side of the page is torn and fragmented at that point the last letter of the forename is still visible ......... and the name ends with a ' d'. So it could be David, Edmond, Edward for example but certainly not Ananias. And just how do you know that about 1671 is about the time Ananias would have been born? Not everyone married between 18 and 25 and many did not marry until their 30s or 40s. And have you considered that this may not have been a first marriage for Ananias? You should also be extremely careful how you go about selecting 'suitable' records that suit your purpose! This one I think was probably from FamilySearch/IGI so the first thing you need to do is try and get a look at the original document. And that particular record is available via the FamilySearch Cornwall collection where you can actually see an image of the original page. As for wife Grace - well once again this is obviously straw-clutching. As I pointed out to another member recently, it is a good idea to familiarize yourself with the geography of Cornwall before trying to link a person from (e.g.) Sancreed to someone in (e.g.) Crowan. People certainly could be found a long way from 'home' even in those days but if you find someone of 'potential interest' there is a lot of work to be done before you start making links. You need to investigate the Parish of origin of that person and search to see if perhaps that person died young or married in or near their home parish. The biggest thing to be aware of is the availability of Parish Registers and other documents. For example, the earliest extant register for Crowan begins at 1691 with any earlier registers now lost. And that first volume is fragmented and water-damaged to a great extent and is most difficult to read with many, many entries totally illegible or lost. There are Bishops Transcripts from 1674 but they do not cover every year and there may be an earlier set of BTs held at Exeter but they also do not cover every year. Just because you cannot find what you want at Crowan it does not necessarily mean that the person you are looking for must have come from elsewhere. The most likely reason you cannot find them is that the records simply no longer exist. Have you tried searching for Wills for your family? Wills and Land records are often a great source of information that might help fill gaps created by missing registers. CT |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 31, 2015 5:57:15 GMT -5
Jenny - I had no intention of seeming 'rude' so I apologise if my post came across that way. And for your information I am not all that close to Cornwall myself although I have spent around 6 months there in two trips. I actually live in Australia! As for the records I have, or have access to, well I can tell you that it is nothing to do with 'luck' as you put it. I actually spent around three years spending night after night downloading all of this information as it became available. With limited bandwidth available that meant I could only gather so much each month and consequently I missed out on a lot of information that was removed from view for various reasons. Because I spent so much time and energy gathering these resources and then spending more time checking CRO to compile lists of the still-existing registers for each and every Parish in Cornwall - more than 230!!!! - I am in a position to be able to help point people such as yourself in the right direction. So many people seem to 'assume' that because a baptism record cannot be found in (e.g.) IGI or on the OPC site for the parish they want then the baptism must have happened somewhere else. Many of these people find a record that matches what they 'think' should be right and then accept it, publish it and thereby perpetuate an error. People simply do not realize that Parish Registers have gone missing or suffered from irreparable damage over the approximately 450 years since they were first introduced! I should also add that many people seem to have it stuck in their minds that the groom was usually about 21-25 and the bride about 18-21 when they married. This seems to be something emanating from IGI and it is a total fallacy in my book. I find that it does not hurt to keep reminding people to think outside that tunnel. Your post bears similarities to many other requests for help that I have seen and dealt with over the last 7 or 8 years so I was merely, once again, trying to help.  I am not a psychic so I cannot simply look at a post and deduce that the person writing it has thought of all the things I suggested. If you had already thought of all those things then all I can say is 'very good' ...... BUT there are many others who read these posts as well and my responses are also designed to try and get a message to those people to also help them avoid some of the pitfalls!  But after all that you surprise my by this:- Seems to me that after having thought of everything yourself and then taking umbrage at my attempts to help you have still completely ignored the fact that many of the records that might hold the correct answer about Grace may no longer exist!!!  Of course your 'guess' 'might fit' but there is certainly no guarantee that it is the right answer!  I am always prepared to try and help people find the CORRECT answers and I spend many, many hours doing just that. And more than once I have spent over 48 hours straight with no sleep and only very short breaks for food or coffee trying to help a person. And by doing just that I have helped at least one person find the answer to a riddle that had eluded even professional, paid researchers for more than 30 years! To Quote from 'The Guns of Will Sonnett' - No brag, just fact!So it really annoys me when a person I am trying to help decides to 'shove it back in my face'!!  If you would still like more help then I am happy to give it but please understand that as I deal with each query I am also thinking of others with varying degrees of knowledge or experience who are going to be reading these posts.  CT |
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Post by jennymee on May 31, 2015 7:22:26 GMT -5
Thanks Cornish Terrier, yes I realise that the most likely records would have been in the same parish. There is a stage at which I should give up ie when no record exists anymore. For a long while, there were so few records available, then there was a flood of information. I guess giving up at 1690 isn't so bad. The thing about the Vials is that old story about the 'Spanish' blood of some Cornish families. My grandfather's mother was one of those, and we have always wondered where the distinctive swarthiness comes from. Hence the enthusiasm to go further and further back. Sorry I snapped at you - it really was great to find that Hercules' son's name wasn't Ananias - it put that one to bed. All the best, Jenny Jenny - I had no intention of seeming 'rude' so I apologise if my post came across that way. And for your information I am not all that close to Cornwall myself although I have spent around 6 months there in two trips. I actually live in Australia! As for the records I have, or have access to, well I can tell you that it is nothing to do with 'luck' as you put it. I actually spent around three years spending night after night downloading all of this information as it became available. With limited bandwidth available that meant I could only gather so much each month and consequently I missed out on a lot of information that was removed from view for various reasons. Because I spent so much time and energy gathering these resources and then spending more time checking CRO to compile lists of the still-existing registers for each and every Parish in Cornwall - more than 230!!!! - I am in a position to be able to help point people such as yourself in the right direction. So many people seem to 'assume' that because a baptism record cannot be found in (e.g.) IGI or on the OPC site for the parish they want then the baptism must have happened somewhere else. Many of these people find a record that matches what they 'think' should be right and then accept it, publish it and thereby perpetuate an error. People simply do not realize that Parish Registers have gone missing or suffered from irreparable damage over the approximately 450 years since they were first introduced! I should also add that many people seem to have it stuck in their minds that the groom was usually about 21-25 and the bride about 18-21 when they married. This seems to be something emanating from IGI and it is a total fallacy in my book. I find that it does not hurt to keep reminding people to think outside that tunnel. Your post bears similarities to many other requests for help that I have seen and dealt with over the last 7 or 8 years so I was merely, once again, trying to help. I am not a psychic so I cannot simply look at a post and deduce that the person writing it has thought of all the things I suggested. If you had already thought of all those things then all I can say is 'very good' ...... BUT there are many others who read these posts as well and my responses are also designed to try and get a message to those people to also help them avoid some of the pitfalls! But after all that you surprise my by this:- Seems to me that after having thought of everything yourself and then taking umbrage at my attempts to help you have still completely ignored the fact that many of the records that might hold the correct answer about Grace may no longer exist!!! Of course your 'guess' 'might fit' but there is certainly no guarantee that it is the right answer! I am always prepared to try and help people find the CORRECT answers and I spend many, many hours doing just that. And more than once I have spent over 48 hours straight with no sleep and only very short breaks for food or coffee trying to help a person. And by doing just that I have helped at least one person find the answer to a riddle that had eluded even professional, paid researchers for more than 30 years! To Quote from 'The Guns of Will Sonnett' - No brag, just fact!So it really annoys me when a person I am trying to help decides to 'shove it back in my face'!! If you would still like more help then I am happy to give it but please understand that as I deal with each query I am also thinking of others with varying degrees of knowledge or experience who are going to be reading these posts. CT |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 31, 2015 11:34:38 GMT -5
Apology accepted Jenny, thankyou. But just because you run out of extant Parish Registers is no reason to give up on a search totally. There are other ways of getting at least a little further such as Wills and Land Records that have already been mentioned. Searching the CRO Online Catalogue for items relating to particular families or even just items dealing with the Parish or Parishes where your ancestors lived can often turn up interesting items that help piece the puzzle together. CT |
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Not everyone married between 18 and 25 and many did not marry until their 30s or 40s. And have you considered that this may not have been a first marriage for Ananias?
As I pointed out to another member recently, it is a good idea to familiarize yourself with the geography of Cornwall before trying to link a person from (e.g.) Sancreed to someone in (e.g.) Crowan.
I am not a psychic so I cannot simply look at a post and deduce that the person writing it has thought of all the things I suggested. If you had already thought of all those things then all I can say is 'very good' ...... BUT there are many others who read these posts as well and my responses are also designed to try and get a message to those people to also help them avoid some of the pitfalls! 
Of course your 'guess' 'might fit' but there is certainly no guarantee that it is the right answer! 
