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Post by Cornish Terrier on Dec 15, 2013 19:53:08 GMT -5
 Too much Aussie Sun? Civil Registration began 1st July 1837 and the baptism you are quoting is 1838.  If a birth certificate were the source of 'Bussow' then I would have expected the birthdate to be quoted also but baptism records had provision for 'abode' from 1813. The problem with many baptism records is that the vicar merely entered the name of the Parish rather than the actual farm/hamlet/village. Keep digging and the answer will surface. CT
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Post by sue on Dec 16, 2013 8:09:52 GMT -5
I'd love that to be the case! Nope, I'd just got back from a horrendous 200mile round trip, so I recall the little brain thinking "too early for birth certs for Jane 1825 & Thomas 1827..." when of course it was William 1838 I should have been concerned with!! However, William 1838 Towednack my notes of the microfiched baptismal record 7 November 1838 Towednack say "of Penzance" (cousins had also been of Penzance at baptism around this time, they moved around, having lost/finished the family lease at Amalebrea, so place of birth Bussow is either a) birth cert. which seems unlikely since no actual DoB given b) fictitious/Chinese whispers from another relative's records/details c) information passed down the generations/provided by William/his siblings way back when. I am now reasonably satisfied William 1838 be he in S Aus with Jane Noye having 12 children & near brother Thomas, sister Catherine & we believe childless sister Mary/Mrs Gendall, with the St Ives burial 1861 Mary Curnow age 27 being daughter of Polly Jennings, & perhaps the 1861 26 year old servant Mary Curnow in St Ives born "Halsetown" possibly being a duplicate record for Mary Curnow soon to be Mrs Gendall (I've seen plenty of casual details on census entries for servants) but 1861 recorded at home Towednack age 25 with parents, occupation "maid" crossed out I recall, or that 26 year old servant more likely I now think being cousin Mary Ann Curnow 1834 of James Curnow & Margery Harry & was likely of Halsetown (was in 1851) when servant employment started, who perhaps goes on to marry Wm Sampson James Sep Q 1862. But regarding the subject, Mary Curnow wife of Francis Gendall, & then 2ndly apparent brother Wm Curnow husband of Jane Noye, I shall stay alert for further confirmatory or otherwise information.  (Could be after digging all the way through to Aus...) Thanks again. Sue |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Dec 16, 2013 20:36:08 GMT -5
Plenty of circumstantial evidence but nothing that is totally conclusive. We need to find what happened to Margaret (Trevorrow) who certainly appears to have made it to dry land in South Australia. Mary Gendall is slightly different as she appears to have lived beyond 1895 but if we could find her death/burial or some other mentions of her and Francis it would certainly be useful. I have entered the base information into the database and will also keep an eye out for anything helpful. CT |
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Post by foxgrapes on Jun 30, 2014 22:11:51 GMT -5
Hi All,
I happen to be researching the Thomas Curnow and Jane Grenfell line of children and was particularly interested in Sue's last reply and the following line -
"We know that 1841 the 2 eldest siblings Jane 1825 & Thomas 1827 were at Bussow as child servants to the Quicks..."
I have been unable to find this particular census online either at Ancestry or Family Search, and wonder if someone could give me a hint as to exactly what I might be looking for.
I also believe the same Jane Curnow born c1825 may have married William Sampson Allen 10 Oct 1851, although I have been unable to find a Marriage Index for them. There is a grandson, 9yr old Joseph Allen residing with Thomas Curnow & Jane (Grenfell) on the 1861 census. There is also a grandson Thomas Charley (Curnow?) residing with them in the 1851, although at this stage Jane is listed as unmarried. I have been unable to find a birth index for Thomas Charley.
There is a 1861 census for a William & Jane Allen listing a child, Thos C Allen, but the age does not completely pan out with Thomas Charley (but I think it is the same child)
In 1865 there is a ships listing on the barque Norman Morrison travelling to South Australia for a William Allen, his wife Jane, & sons Joseph & Thomas. Unfortunately I cannot find anything for this family after this.
Would be pleased to hear what other folk think. Thanks.
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Post by sue on Jul 1, 2014 14:30:00 GMT -5
Hi again Foxgrapes. I see I made a wee slip up in the post you quoted, sorry! The 2 children of Thomas Curnow 1802 & Jane Grenfell who were in 1841 servants at Bussow/Bussa in Towednack to the Quicks: they were Thomas 1827 & Elizabeth 1830. They can be found on Folio 8 Page 8 via Freecen www.freecen.org.uk/by searching for Thomas Curnow age 13 in Cornwall. Parents Thomas Curnow & Jane Grenfell are not far away, age 35, on Folio 6 Page 5 at Rosewall, with children Mary 5, William 3 & John 2. (Thomas & Jane had lost a previous Mary 1832 & John 1834). Thomas & Jane's oldest child, Jane 1825, may perhaps be the 14 year old servant to the Trewhellas at Amalebra Towednack in 1841. Don't know, haven't done an exhaustive elimination process for that Jane... “Whatever”, Jane is back at home 1851, Chylasson Towednack this time, prior to her marriage to William Allen, which can be found on the Online Parish Clerk website for Cornwall: www.cornwall-opc-database.org/. 10 October 1851 at Ludgvan. As to Thomas Charles age 3 months, grandson to Thomas Curnow~Jane Grenfell in 1851 via one of their daughters: I suspect access to the Towednack baptisms for the period might help, but they can I believe currently, for this time period, only be viewed on microfiche down in Cornwall, not online. Whether the 1861 entry for Wm Allen & wife Jane at St Just have with them the child Thomas Charles who was 3mths old in 1851, I don't know: in addition to saying age 7, it also says born St Just.... meanwhile Joseph Allen age 9 is present in Towednack 1861 as grandson to Thomas & Jane. The Ship's List 1865 for the Norman Morrison has I think a family of 5: William, Jane, Joseph, Thomas, and William Allen; this being the same shipping manifesto on which William Curnow 1838 of Thos Curnow~Jane Grenfell appears, with his wife Margaret Trevorrow. I note that the children of Wm Allen & his wife Jane are listed as Joseph age 13, Thomas age 10 & William age 2. I would thus be minded that at age 10, Thomas would not be the chap Thomas Charles age 3 mths in 1851..... (I note that FreeBMD has the birth of a Thomas Nichols Curnow in the Dec Q of 1850, he would have been c3 mths old in 1851 census: I do not yet have him placed with parents, but it is worth noting that Elizabeth Curnow 1830 of Thomas Curnow~Jane Grenfell goes on to marry Andrew Nicholls in 1852......)
I haven't looked further for the Allens in Southern Aus, although I wouldn't be surprised if they washed up in the same place as Jane's brothers Thomas & Wm Curnow, the Gendalls et al, in the Moonta surrounds.
Sorry that's probably not much help.
Sue
P.S. Sorry, can't seem to get rid of these italics!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 1, 2014 17:53:58 GMT -5
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 1, 2014 18:20:26 GMT -5
I see that Sue had already corrected the 1841 Curnow information but if you can use the link I provided you will see for yourself.
Not sure what is going on here. First of all the grandson in 1851 is THOMAS CHARLES (not Thomas Charley) and the way the name is written indicates that 'Charles' would be a surname. However I have searched PRs, Non-conformist registers and FreeBMD and can find no Thomas CHARLES born or baptised in late 1850 or early 1851. In fact I could find just three entries in FreeBMD that might be any sort of match:-
December Qtr 1850
Thomas Charles JAMES
Thomas Charles RICHARDS
March Qtr 1851
Thomas Charles WILLIAMS
If he were a son of Jane then to be born that early in the year he was obviously illegitimate but it now seems also possible from the above that the father was not William Allen.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 1, 2014 18:26:34 GMT -5
Hmmmm - trying to stretch it a bit here I think!  If he were born at the end of the December Qtr then yes, he would have been three months old as the Census was taken 30th March. BUT if THC were born at the start of that Quarter (i.e. early October) then he would have been 6 months old! In any case I suspect TNC might have been a son of John Curnow and his second wife Patience Nichols Craze. They have a gap from son Thomas (1850 St Ives) to son Henry (1859 Geelong, Victoria) so there appear to be missing children. And they also had three more sons born in Victoria including Thomas Newry (Nichols) Curnow born in 1855. CT |
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Post by sue on Jul 2, 2014 4:58:58 GMT -5
You are of course right CT!
Thomas Nichols Curnow Dec Q 1850 will very likely be the Thomas 4 mths old in 1851 census, mother Patience, who then appears on the Nov 1851 shipping list for the Lysander arriving Australia.
I stupidly/carelessly had morphed him into the colourful Thomas Newry Curnow (various newspaper appearances on Trove) despite what should have been an alarm bell of a younger birthdate appearing on an online tree, which I had dismissed with my Deep Scepticism on trees......
The identity of Thomas Charles, 3 mths, gson to Thos Curnow~Jane Grenfell in 1851 may remain a mystery, with the possibility of identifying his mother when I one day/next get to examine microfiche Towednack 1840~1859 baptisms......
Sue
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Post by foxgrapes on Jul 3, 2014 2:20:10 GMT -5
Thanks Everyone. Just another quick question. Is there a marriage for Elizabeth Curnow Born 1830? There seems to be a lot of trees that say she married Richard Leah Treadrea, but on looking at this marriage on the Cornish records site, her father (although named Thomas) is a farmer, not a miner, and she is listed as Eliza, so I don't think this marriage is correct?
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Post by sue on Jul 3, 2014 2:47:41 GMT -5
What's with looking at other people's trees for 3rd, no, maybe 20th hand "information"? Therein lies the path to ruin! Certainly not when there are pretty reliable online transcritions of original parish records available, and in some cases FamilySearch nowadays also has digital images of many Cornish parish records for you to virtually view the originals for yourself..... Census records + www.cornwall-opc-database.org for baptisms, marriages & burials will get you a long way.... Try OPC, and follow through/ eliminate all the other Elizabeth Curnow possibilities, not forgetting to look for Elizabeth in 1851 census. And re-read the posts in this thread in the last couple of days!! Sue |
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Post by foxgrapes on Jul 3, 2014 17:58:55 GMT -5
Ooh...sorry! Thought I had read everything....must be getting old.
Sue, I only usually look at others trees just out of interest, then I go and check for myself. It actually annoys me when I see folks just copying everybody else.
Thanks again for your help.
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Post by foxgrapes on Jul 3, 2014 21:23:21 GMT -5
I did find an entry for a 'Margaret' (no surname) who died 1 Jan 1866 at Adelaide. This could be Margaret Curnow (nee Trevorrow). The age is about right. William would have married Jane Noye 3mths later?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 3, 2014 22:29:56 GMT -5
The South Australian Deaths Registrations Index 1842-1915 shows that this was Margaret ROGERS age 23 who died at Adelaide 1st January 1866
CT
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Post by foxgrapes on Jul 4, 2014 12:48:40 GMT -5
OK...was just a thought
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Too much Aussie Sun? 
If a birth certificate were the source of 'Bussow' then I would have expected the birthdate to be quoted also but baptism records had provision for 'abode' from 1813. The problem with many baptism records is that the vicar merely entered the name of the Parish rather than the actual farm/hamlet/village.
(Could be after digging all the way through to Aus...)
If he were born at the end of the December Qtr then yes, he would have been three months old as the Census was taken 30th March. BUT if THC were born at the start of that Quarter (i.e. early October) then he would have been 6 months old!