acouple of missing Carpenters

[getafish460]

Hi All, ;Dsorry it's been a while but compiling al this stuff, along with work, holidays, you name it, takes its time.

Perhaps someone can assist

Frederick Martin Carpenter (b1888 in Llangyfelach, Glamorgan d.1942 in St Agnes) had four children: Jane (possibly Gertude Jane) Jack(?) Everall and finally Frederick Martin (Jnr, My late father)

I've laid my hands on the only photos of Janey and Jack (as my father only ever referred to them) but any other details elude me.

Everall and Fred were the only surviving children of Fred Snr, Janey and Jack having died (according to Dad) of "Consumption" (TB) (an affliction that rendered Fred Snr incapacitated later in his life)

The photos that I have show Janey as a young woman (perhaps in her mid to late teens) and Jack as a boy in the typical for the time "Sailors outfit"

The family originally came from the Illogan area and Fred Snr moved back to the area sometime before 1910,it is assumed.

does anyone know if either Jack or Janey had died prior to the return to Cornwall (possibly from the Salford area) or were they still alive at the time and are therefore buried in Cornwall.

i'd like to be able to shed some light on these two, who were, after all, my uncle and aunt, although they died many years before i was born. it is possible that they had a different mother to Everall and Fred Jnr and also possible that they were born and died outside of Cornwall, possibly S.Wales or even Lancashire, but i do not posess the facilities to search in too much depth.

any help, guidance or even clues would be gratefully received

Ted

[Cornish Terrier]

G'day Ted

It took me a little while but I have found answers to part of your problem.

The family was back in Cornwall by the early 1890s as daughter Annie was age 8 in the 1901 Census with her birthplace recorded as Redruth.

I first found the family in the 1891 Census although the transcribers have Frederick Martin born 1886 due to the legibility of his age.

1891 Llangyfelach, Glamorgan
William CARPENTER, head, mar, 49, mason labourer, Illugan Highway Cornwall
Grace do., wife, mar, 20(?), Cornwall (age could also be 50!)
William Chas do., son, 21, Cornwall
Ida Eliztth do., daur, 19, Cornwall
Richard J. do., son, 14, mason assistant, Lancashire Oldham
James Hy do., son, 8, Glamorgan Swansea
Grace Cornelius do., daur, 7, Glamorgan Swansea
Frederick Martin do., son, 3, Glamorgan Swansea
Caroline Jane do., daur, 4mths, Glamorgan Swansea

(The occupation of son William Charles is something to do with a Zinc Furnace)

Now then - in 1901 things changed a little and at least some of the children were known by their second names!

1901 Foxe's Plce, Redruth
Grace CARPENTER, head, widow, 51, Redruth
John do., son, single, 24, bricklayer, Lancs. Wigan
James do., son, single, 18, house painter, Glamorgan Swansea
Grace do., daur, single, 15, machine minder safety fuse factory, Glamorgan Swansea
Martin do., son, 13, Glamorgan Swansea
Carrie do., daur, 10, Glamorgan Swansea
Annie do., daur, 8, Redruth Cornwall

So the family returned sometime between 1891 and about 1893 which answers the first part of your query I think.

The next part is a little more difficult and it looks possible that Frederick Martin Carpenter 'may' have married a widow.

I cannot find any of the family in 1911 although it is possible indexing is not yet completed.
And the only possible marriage I can find is from FreeBMD:-

March Qtr 1913
Vol 5c Page 362
Redruth R.D.
Frederick M Carpenter
Mary A Craze

And the only children I can find to match your list are these three:-

Everell I P Carpenter
Dec Qtr 1913
Vol 5c Page 321
Redruth R.D.
Mother's maiden name - PRYOR

William J Carpenter - (Jack?)
March Qtr 1915
Vol 5c Page 310
Redruth R.D.
Mother's maiden name - PRYOR

Frederick M Carpenter
September Qtr 1918
Vol 5c Page 257
Redruth R.D.
Mother's maiden name - Pryor

No sign of any deaths for the missing children up to 1950 in the Redruth R.D.

That gives you a little to work with I think.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Something else from FreeBMD:-

Marriages

September Qtr 1906
Vol 5c Page 330
Redruth R.D.
BUDDELL Sarah
CRAZE Edward John
MITCHELL John
PRYOR Mary Ann

Deaths

December Qtr 1908
Vol 5c Page 131
Redruth R.D.
CRAZE Edward John age 26

I should think that leads to the marrige with Frederick Martin Carpenter. And I also noticed the death of an EVERILL CRAZE age 3 in 1907. Not a son of Mary Ann but still the name is interesting.

There was also a Florence JANE Craze born September 1908. Could this possibly be your missing 'Jane'?

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

I have just now found Grace at Whitworth in Lancashire with daughters Grace and Caroline in 1911. (Indexed as COrpenter!)

No sign of the other children as yet.

Although I may possibly have found Frederick a couple of nights ago. Given he is recorded as 'Martin' in 1901 he may well be the Martin Carpenter boarding with Elizabeth Collins at Falmouth Road, Redruth, in 1911. Age 24 and occupation 'carrier'.

Now let's return to Jack and Janey who are possibly Florence Jane Craze and William J Carpenter.

The photos that I have show Janey as a young woman (perhaps in her mid to late teens) and Jack as a boy in the typical for the time "Sailors outfit"

If 'Janey' were Florence Jane Craze then she was born in 1908 and William J Carpenter was born in 1915. There is a death for a William J Carpenter age 5 Rochdale R.D. in 1920.

Could that photo you mention have been taken about 1920 and soon before the child died? If so then 'Janey' would have been just 12 so your description of her would not quite fit.

However - there is a death for a Florence J Craze age 18 in 1927 also at Rochdale! That fits perfectly with your photo and also is a perfect match for the daughter of Mary A Craze from her first marriage.

I now see that you use the term 'photos' so am I to understand that you have separate photos of each of the children (Janey and Jack)? If so then I think I have identified the two deaths for you.

Of course that infers that Frederick Carpenter left Cornwall again and was resident in Lancashire by 1920!

CT

[getafish460]

CT:D I bow to your superior knowledge, skills and database.

That certainly puts some meat on the bones so to speak.

i recall my father talking about living in Rochdale as a young boy, somewhere called Facet (pronounced Face-it, but I've never been able to find the place on a map!), he mentioned Whitworth, I recall, but it never meant anything to me, and also that he finished his schooling in St Agnes. If he was, as he said, 14 when he left school, and was born in 1918, he would have left school about 1932/3 which would fit in with the familys return to Cornwall, which, I presume coincided with the death of Janey (Florence). I was told that my grandfather was told by the doctor to move back to Cornwall as the climate (and probably the pollution levels) was not conducive for his health, and that he had suffered with "Consumption". I was told that this is what killed both Jack (William) and Janey. Do you have any details on causes of death?
I have details in my files that showed Mary Ann had been married before and widowed, but did not know that Florence Jane was my father's half sister from that first marriage. Thanks for that.

My father always told me that his father was known as simply Martin, but it was assumed that was simply to differentiate him from my father, both of whom were baptised Frederick Martin.

Another curiosity, and food for thought, which we may never know the answer to- Grace was working in the fuse factory in 1901- According to the Bal-Maidens records Mary Ann Pryor was working in the fuse factory at the same time - I wonder if it is possible, being as they are about the same age, that they knew each other, or even worked alongside each other in the same factory. This would leave open the possiblity that Mary Ann and Frederick knew each other before her first marriage, through his sister, Grace. Food for thought? ?

Further to all that I recall visiting two "Aunts" in Rochdale as a child, named "Winnie" and "Ida" respectively, and being told later that they were "cousins" to my father. Is it possible that they were the children of one of Frederick (Snr)'s siblings, that remained in Lancashire after Fred and the remaining children left?

Lots to be getting on with

Thanks for all your help
Kind regards

Ted

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Ted - I can't answer all your questions, particularly about causes of death, because most of my information is from the Census and then FreeBMD. Unfortunately I don't have access to PRs for the events we need.

FACIT - according to the Census Facit is in Whitworth Parish so it is probably a small village or hamlet If you Google 'facit lancashire' you will find information in Wikipaedia along with other sources. And one of those indicates Facit as a chapelry of Rochdale.

It is possible that Mary Ann Pryor was known to Frederick earlier on and they may even have lived in the same village. Another possibility is that, as Mary Ann was widowed early, she may have been employed for a time in the Carpenter household.

I recall visiting two "Aunts" in Rochdale as a child, named "Winnie" and "Ida"

This could be tricky! Those names could be first names or perhaps second Christian names and then I presume it is not known whether they might have been daughters of a brother or of a sister!

And I just found out something that I believe you had not mentioned!

I took it on face value that Everall was a male name but I just discovered that Everall I P Carpenter married NORMAN C Cowl!

Guess that means that Everall was a female!

CT

[getafish460]

I remember my Aunt Everall well, as a child and spent many a summer at her cottage in St Agnes. She was married to Norman Cecil Cowl (known usually as just Cecil), the village baker (a master at the art of making Hovis bread, of which i have fond memories, still warm from the ovens!)
As for the possibility that Mary Ann had worked within the household- i think we can dismiss that idea on the grounds that i have no evidence to suggest that the Carpenter household had sufficient means, or status, to employ anyone "in service". i think my conjecture of her being known to Frederick through his sister is the most likely, but we shall probably never know (unless you can dig up something different!!)

It is my thought that Winnie and Ida were most probably the offspring of a sister to Frederick Snr, as they were a similar generation to my father (b.1918) and i vaguely remember them as a young child. As you quite rightly put, we have no idea whether those were their first names or, as we have discovered, possibly their middle names, but you now know as much as i do.

Thanks for your help

Ted

[Cornish Terrier]

No reason we can't find out who Winnie and Ida were, it just means it will be some extra work!

I'm working on a few other things at the moment but as I get the chance I will take another look and see if I might be able to identify them.

CT

[getafish460]

That would be great CT,
In the meantime I'm going to dig my way into the attic and try and locate anything that my parents might have stored away that will give me some leads on their identities.

regards,

Ted

[Cornish Terrier]

Okay Ted - I have not managed to get another look at this lot yet so if you can find anything at all that might help it would be great.

Otherwise it will be a case of one sibling at a time and checking each for as far as they can be checked.

CT

[getafish460]

;DG'day CT,

I've been delving around amongst my files and found the 1881 census entries shownig Grace living at 86a East End Back Lane, Redruth, (recorded as "Head") along with William C, 12 (already a Tin Miner!!) Ida E, 9, Richard I (J?), 4 and Joseph C aged 5 months (ALL of whom are recorded as being born in Redruth). No mention of William, the husband. It is, of course possible that he was in Oldham or Glamorgan at the time, as: Census 1891 shows them living in Llangyfelach (2 Davies St): William, 44, Grace, 40 (relegated from Head to Wife!!!) William, 21, Ida Elizabeth, 19, Richard J (poss. John?), 14, James Henry, 8, (no mention of him before!!)Grace Cornlius, 7, Frederick Martin (my Grandfather),3, and Caroline Jane aged 4 mnths.
However, this census records that only William and Ida were born in Cornwall and that Richard J was born in Oldham, Lancs, the others being born in Glamorganshire (Swansea)

My dilemmas are : as you discovered, in 1901 Grace had returned to Redruth (Foxes Place) along with John (Richard John?) James, Grace, Martin (Frederick?) Carrie (Caroline?) and Annie (?)
There seems to be the loss of young Joseph, who doesn't appear in the 1891 census or thereafter. I can't find a birth record for Annie, a death record for William, the father, and William C doesn't seem to have returned to Corwall after appearing in Llangyfelach in 1891, although at his age it is perfectly possible that he simply got married and set up home elsewhere (another branch of the family to trace

Noteworthy is that Ida Elizabeth didn't return to Cornwall either. If begs the question: is the remembered "Aunt" Ida the namesake of Ida Eliabeth and did Richard return north to the county of his birth and name is daughter after her. What is the connection with Lancashire? I'm a bit stumped, but I'm sure it will all fall into place.
Meanwhile -Back to the attic!!!

Thanks for your help thus far,

Ted

[Cornish Terrier]

Ted - if you are heading back to the attic then it means there must be more to find! i think I will hang on a little longer to see what more you can dig up.

CT

[getafish460]

CT,

Give me a couple of days, Who knows what I might find (who knows what I threw away!!!!!)

Ted

[getafish460]

Hi CT
Something else I've found whilst back checking my documents :

Quote

I have photocopies of the register entry for Frederick's birth as occurring Jan/Feb/Mar Qtr 1888 - Swansea - Vol 11a P.777

I also have the same for Mary Ann Pryor - Jan/Feb/Mar Qtr 1870 - Redruth - Vol 5c P.274

I've got the same for Fred's parents William (1846 Redruth Vol.IX P 243) & Grace Moore (1851 Redruth Vol.XX P.573)

It is my intention, at this juncture, to concentrate on my own line as, so far, I've only got back to a marriage in St Austell in June 1699 before I exhausted my database and hit a brick-wall :-[and I need to fill in a lot of details.

I appreciate your assistance with this. Buy you a beer sometime

Ted