William GRENFELL stated on the 1851 census that he was born in Madron.
Further to this some time ago, I did some research (which I didn't copy - Doh!) for my wife's cousin who was descended from one of William GRENFELL's other sons William Henry (I think). This member of the family moved up to Scotland to work and I think William his father went with him. I haven't got Ancestry access anymore but I 've just done a limited check and the name William GREENFIELD came up b about 1809 and living in West Lothian. I am almost sure that this is our William GRENFELL (I remember him being named a GREENFIELD and imagined the Scottish enumerator struggling with his accent). The family, as I remember married cousins up in Scotland (CARTERS from Newlyn, I think) and then eventually SEMMENS, from whom my wife's cousin descends. I don't know if anyone has access to Ancestry to check this out but it might tell more about our William's heritage.
With regards to Patience GRENFELL (nee LAWRY) this census extract fits the bill. 1841 Census Gulval HO107/142/1 ED25 Folio 21 Page 8 Chyandour Patience GRENFILL, 70, Independent, in county Sarah GRENFILL, 45, in county Sarah GRENFILL, 15, in county Mary GRENFILL, 10, in county
Going back to Eliza BADCOCK...Again we have a choice of two from Paul.
Eliza BADCOCK bap 20 Mar 1814 d/o William and Elizabeth
Elizabeth BADCOCK bap 5 Feb 1815 d/o John and Mary
The naming of Eliza's children are Richard (William's father?), William Henry (father or possibly Eliza's father or both), John (Elizabeth's father if we go with the 1815 baptism). It's not helping is it? And we haven't even started on the reason she named St Hilary as her birthplace on two separate censuses.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 31, 2012 2:38:24 GMT -5
I am interested in this discussion but from a different perspective altogether. There is a Richard Rowe Madron 1763/Margaret Grenfell (of St.Just) and a Richard Rowe of Madron married to a Jane Grenfell (of Gulval?).I thought that the latter pair were the parents of "my" William Rowe (ggg-father,1819,Madron) but the records clearly show the parents as Richard (no DOB) and Jenefer (Jennifer): Pallot "shows" the wife as a WHITE. There are so many ROWEs in the vicinity that I am not entirely convinced. Hence the search for "clues". Pallot shows Jane as a Grenfell. There are various spellings for these names the further back in time you go...Grenvill etc. David
David - once again you are confusing the issue by adding a query of your own that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
You have done this on so many occasions and in so many different threads that I now have no idea where your original discussion was.
In future please refrain from doing this and 'remind' people of your dilemma by reopening the original thread.
In this case I believe the query should probably be in the Madron section so please check there and I will have a little information for you!
Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 31, 2012 10:45:05 GMT -5
Re - Patience Grenfell in 1841 with Sarah and children.
John Grenfell married Sarah Tredrea 15th July 1821 at Gulval with witnesses A Tredrea snr and Grace Pauley
The first witness was Sarah's father Abraham and she was baptised at Madron 20th September 1795. Sarah died and was buried at Gulval 17th April 1843.
I have found marriages for the two daughters but have been unable to find either of them in the 1851 Census.
I also cannot find any trace of John Grenfell either in burial records. Richard and Patience did not have a son named John as far as I have been able to find so my best guess at the moment is that Patience may have been an Aunt to either John Grenfell or Sarah Tredrea.
John Grenfell was the son of Richard Grenfell and Patience Lawry. After the death of his first wife, Sarah Tredrea, he married Mary Ann Corin 29 mar 1845 at Gulval. She the daughter of Richard Corin. The only bapt.I can find is 21 sept.1794 at Gulval (looks like her) There is a load of information on this line on The Grenfell family history site, run by Arthur Grenfell Coomb. Roy
Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 1, 2012 12:00:06 GMT -5
Roy - that is precisely where I thought John Grenfell should belong but I could find no baptism to substantiate it. Since you posted this I have checked the marriage records and his signiature is near enough identical in each case. I also checked the 1851 Census and found him (as Grenfill) where he claims to have been age 57 and born at Madron. To me age 57 equates to a birth in 1793 or perhaps 1794 - if the age is accurate! And that is notable given the gap between 1789 and 1795 for the children of Richard and Patience. I could find nothing at Madron but then I looked at the other children of Richard and Patience and remembered that at least the first few were baptised at Zennor. A look at the CFHS Transcript for Zennor baptisms provided an answer!
John son of JOHN Grenfell baptised 13th May 1792 at Zennor
This is the only baptism for a child of a John Grenfell at Zennor prior to 1800 and he has always been a bit of a mystery. But the conclusion must now be that this is yet another case of incorrect information being recorded with the child's name also inserted as that of the father!
I suggest then that this is actually our 'missing' son of Richard and Patience Grenfell.
Just received death certificate of Eliza GRENFELL (nee BADCOCK?) which confirmed that this is indeed the death of our Eliza GRENFELL and not some other. Her age is given as 66 which is probably incorrect as Eliza herself declared she was 69 on the 1881 census one year earlier. Her own declaration corresponds with every other census she was on. The age 66 at death was probably just a guess by her son who we hope showed more accuracy when he became Borough Surveyor of St Ives nine years later. relevant detail is... 27 Mar 1882 at Market Strand, St Ives, Eliza GRENFELL, female, 66 years, widow of William GRENFELL, tin miner died of Cancer of liver and ? bronchitis. death registered by John GRENFELL, son of Chapel Street, St Ives
Last Edit: Apr 4, 2012 8:00:04 GMT -5 by graylight
Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 8, 2012 5:16:08 GMT -5
I have tried ooking at possible parents for William Grenfell again in order to eliminate as many as possible and at this point it is coming back to a choice between Thomas and Margery (of the Sancreed Thread) or Richard and Patience.
The burial at Madron in 1815 of William Grenfell of Penhale age 4 is obviously one of these two and initially I was leaning towards the son of Richard and Patience given Penhale is quite close to Carthew where the family was living when William was baptised in March 1815.
But looking from a slightly different perspective causes me to rethink that conclusion.
Thomas and Margery were consistently baptising children at Sancreed from 1803 through 1825 whereas Richard and Patience had children to 1806 and then a gap of almost nine years before William was baptised in 1815.
That gap of nine years between baptising children suggests that either 1. there are a number of children missing or (more likely) 2. that the baptism of William had been delayed for some time.
Unfortunately the William we are interested in survived long enough to be included in only two Census - 1841 and 1851 - but his age is more consistent with a birth around 1811 or 1812.
For that reason and also the fact he named a son Richard but no Thomas I think it more likely now that Richard and Patience were the parents. BUT there is always the possibility that he was illegitimate and baptised under a different surname!
Yes CT you can see why this branch of the Grenfells is so problematic when the rest seem so well-documented. I must admit that the naming of first son Richard does seem strange when there seems to be no precedent for it. I noted the proximity of Penhale with Carthew on an old map but the naming of Madron as his birthplace on the 1851 census would not seem consistent with the rest of Thomas and Margery's children after 1804.
The fact that Eliza Badcock could be one of six possibles is also a problem. It is annoying because I have got this family back down to William and Eliza but beyond that it is so vague in so many different ways...and I can't even begin to uncover why she named St Hilary as her birthplace on two censuses. It just seems a strange choice unless there is some kind of connection.