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Post by graylight on Mar 29, 2012 10:14:30 GMT -5
Below are the census returns involving Eliza(beth) GRENFELL who I have yet to find a record of marriage to husband William GRENFELL who I believe to be the son of Richard and Patience GRENFELL of Madron. William left home for Scotland, I belive to work in the Lanarkshire coalfields but that is another story.
1841 Census St Ives HO107/ ED8 Page 9/17 Trowan William GRENFELL, 25, Miner of tin, in county Eliza GRENFELL, 30, in county Richard GRENFELL, 4, in county William GRENFELL, 2, in county John GRENFELL, 1, in county (died before next census - this is not the John Grenfell of this bloodline)
1851 Census St Ives HO107/1917 ED21 Folio 513 Page 28 Fore Street 38 William GRENFELL, head, marr, 39, Miner, Madron, Cornwall Eliza GRENFELL, wife, marr, 40, Paul, Cornwall (only census this birthplace was ever mentioned Richard GRENFELL, son, 14, St Ives, Cornwall William Henry GRENFELL, son, 12, St Ives, Cornwall Peter R GRENFELL, son, 2, St Ives, Cornwall Jane ELLIS, lodger, unm, 23, Servant,St Ives, Cornwall
1861 Census St Ives RG9/1590 ED8 Folio 12 Page 22 Beach 123 Eliza GRENFELL, head, widow, 49, Miner's widow, pork and potato seller, St Hilary, Cornwall Peter GRENFELL, son, 12, Scholar, St Ives, Cornwall John GRENFELL, son, 9, Scholar, St Ives, Cornwall Frederick GRENFELL, son, 6, Scholar, St Ives, Cornwall Stephen MARTIN, lodger, unm, 22, Copper miner, Ireland John BRAY. lodger, unm, 21, Copper miner, Gwennap, Cornwall
1871 Census St Ives RG10/2334 ED6 Folio 4 Page 1 Market Strand 2 Elizabeth GRENFELL, head, widow, 58, Miner's widow, St Ives, Cornwall John GRENFELL, son, marr, 25, Miner, St Ives, Cornwall Catherine GRENFELL, dau-in-law, marr, 22, St Ives, Cornwall Frederick GRENFELL, son, unm, 16, Miner, St Ives, Cornwall Mary GRENFELL, g'dau, 1, St Ives, Cornwall
1881 Census St Ives RG11/2341 ED7 Folio 88 Page 1 Market Strand 2 Eliza GRENFELL, head, widow, 69, Lodging House Keeper, St Hilary, Cornwall
My problem is that for years I have assumed Eliza came from St Hilary (she does mention it a time or two!) and due to her son Peter being named ROWE as his middle name I assumed that was her maiden name. When I did discover an Eliza ROWE born in St Hilary around 1811, I was naturally overjoyed. This has since proved to be another Eliza ROWE who married a gentleman called PRISK. Dead end there then.
A later child was called Frederick Thomas Badcock GRENFELL so then (at CT's suggestion) I started following that particular lane of enquiry.
Now it seems there are two possible Elizabeth BADCOCK's who come from Paul (the other place suggested as a birthplace on the census). One baptised 20 Mar 1814 and the other 5 Feb 1815. There are also two from Penzance - 27 May 1810 and 27 Jan 1811 but since Penzance is not given a mention on the censuses, I tend to discount these. There is an earlier one at Paul 23 Feb 1806 but again I have discounted this.
I have discovered a marriage between an Eliza BADCOCK and James ROWE at Paul (27 Jul 1834) which could have pre-empted her marriage/liaison with William GRENFELL. If this is my Eliza then it might go someway to explaining why one of her children should be named ROWE as a middle name...but it doesn't answer my question - Why St Hilary?
I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 29, 2012 13:35:14 GMT -5
I don't recall if you had identified William Grenfell so I will throw something into the mix for you. I am still unable to find a marriage for William and Eliza however I wonder if perhaps the wrong tree is being barked at with some of our previous thinking. It suddenly dawned on me that everything was being concentrated on the identity of Eliza (still is I guess!) and so that is where the names Rowe and Badcock have also been concentrated .......... without success so far. I wonder now if maybe the Rowe name actually comes from the Grenfell side. By my reckoning William Grenfell is almost certainly the William baptised to John Grenfell at Zennor 23rd June 1811 and if I am correct then the parents were:- John Grenfell married Margaret ROWE 5th April 1800 at Madron I can find no Peter Rowe anywhere who seems likely to be connected although there was one at St Ives where most of William and Eliza's children were baptised. Son John was baptised at Bodmin 13th September 1840 (born 23rd August 1840) in case you were not aware of it. Best I can do right now but I am still thinking about the problem. CT
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Post by londoner on Mar 29, 2012 14:04:41 GMT -5
You can rule out the James Rowe- Eliza Badcock marriage as in 1851 they and a quantity of children are living at Paul with Eliza's father - William Badcock HO107; Piece: 1918; Folio: 325; Page: 8
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Post by graylight on Mar 29, 2012 14:18:48 GMT -5
In from leftfield that one CT but plausible as in 1841 the said family were living and working at Trowan which is a short distance from Zennor. I'm a bit perplexed by son John (the first of that name) being baptised in Bodmin. The family seem a little light on baptismal records (and marriage) which makes me wonder whether they were not churchgoers.
Thanks for that info Londoner...one less furrow to plough.
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Post by graylight on Mar 29, 2012 14:47:12 GMT -5
Hi CT, I've had another look at things and have noticed that my William GRENFELL named his first born son Richard which might back up the Madron birth. Below is the info I have on the family's children (births are approximate)
Children of William GRENFELL and Eliza BADCOCK?
1. Richard GRENFELL b 1836 at Trowan Farm 2. William Henry GRENFELL b 1838 at Trowan Farm 3. John GRENFELL (1) b 1840 at Trowan Farm 4. Unknown GRENFELL b 1847 d 1851 5. Peter Rowe GRENFELL b 1849 d 6 Oct 1918 at 30 Raploch Street, Larkhall, Scotland 6. John GRENFELL (2) b 1851 at St Ives d 8 Feb 1909 at 2 Bedford Road, St Ives 7. Frederick Thomas Badcock GRENFELL b 1855 d 1925 at St Ives
The second John GRENFELL is my wife's g-g grandfather who started his life as a tin miner (1871 census, age 20) but soon joined the St Ives Corporation in 1875 as a roadman. 1881 census has John as a Labourer (Common). Around this time he started to self-educate himself and through his hard work eventually was appointed Foreman of the Highways around 1880. In 1891 he was among six people from all over the country to be interviewed for the vacant Borough Surveyor and Inspector of Nuisances position at St Ives. He was successful and was paid around £75 p.a. He was soon to be involved in the building of the new sewerage system for St Ives and took complete responsibility for the construction of the town's new water works. He was highly respected for the quality of his work and in fact in 1896 the mayor of the town wrote a testimonial of his achievements. His career was cut short at the comparatively young age of 57 when he had to retire due to ill health in December.
John taught his wife Catherine (Sisley COWLING) to write. He left her the sum of £342.6s.6d
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 29, 2012 15:03:26 GMT -5
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. The Census tells us that William was born about 1811 and the only William Grenfell born around that time at Madron/Penzance was the son of Nicholas Grenfell and Mary (nee Murray). If you are looking for a William with father Richard then you need to look at the 1810 baptism of William son of Richard Grenfell and Catherine (nee Harry) at St Just. The William baptised at Zennor to John and Margaret I think is the more likely even though I might have expected the first son to be named for William's father or for William himself. But there are three things to consider here:- 1. John and Margaret also had a son named Richard 2. William's third son (after Richard and William Henry) was named John and then after he died another son was also named John. 3. Although baptised at Zennor William may well have been born at Madron where John and Margaret married and where their first four children were baptised. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 29, 2012 15:27:29 GMT -5
Well, I've just shot that theory out of the water! William Grenfell, farmer of Zennor, son of John Grenfell married Kezia Penrose at St Buryan 22nd October 1842 The 1851 Census confirms that he was born at Zennor about 1811 which means he could not be the man who married Eliza! At least that is one more crossed from the list. CT
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Post by graylight on Mar 29, 2012 16:04:58 GMT -5
I've got a William GRENFELL, baptised 12 Mar 1815 s/o Richard Grenfell Husbandman of Carthew and Patience (LAWRY) at Madron
Strange thing about this one is that they were married in 17 Oct 1788 and I can't find any children pre- 1800.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 29, 2012 16:53:21 GMT -5
Okay - I see who you are talking about but had not extended my search beyond 1812. Richard and Patience had the following children:- Richard bp. 1789 Zennor Thomas bp. 1795 Zennor Henry bp. 1798 Zennor Patience bp. 1802 Madron Margaret bp. 1804 Madron Elizabeth bp. 1806 Madron And then came William after a long gap. There is one thing in favour of this being the right William and that is that Patience Grenfell was buried at St Ives in 1847 age 81. My concern though is that there is a burial at Madron in 1815 for a William Grenfell age 4 months. That burial was in July and the above William was baptised in March - 4 months difference! BUT - there was also a William Grenfell baptised at Sancreed in March 1815 however that family appears to have remained at Sancreed. I need to do some more work to see if I can find any trace of this last William before I can determine if William of Madron survived. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 30, 2012 5:11:45 GMT -5
Having just spent quite a bit of time working on this problem I find that I can still not work out which William Grenfell married Eliza. As I mentioned previously there is a burial at Madron for a William Grenfell of Penhale at 5 months dated 17th July 1815. This would have him born probably in February 1815 and gives us two possibilities. William son of Thomas and Margery Grenfell of Sancreed bp. 5th March 1815 Sancreed William son of Richard and Patience Grenfell of Carthew bp. 12th March 1815 Madron My dilemma now is in the geography! Carthew is now part of Newbridge which is very close to the border with Sancreed. Penhale is probably about half a mile North of Newbridge which suggests that it is probably the son of Richard and Patience who was buried in 1815. But then I cannot find anything more about the son of Thomas and Margery and in the baptism records their abode was 'of Sancreed'. In 1841 Thomas and Margery were at Bojewyan, St Just and their eldest son, Thomas, was at Boswens which is a little over two miles Northwest of Newbridge. I suspect at the moment that it was William son of Richard and Patience buried in 1815. CT
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Post by londoner on Mar 30, 2012 8:35:30 GMT -5
Have we at any stage considered the marriage of William Grenfell to Josepha Elizabeth Thomas at Madron 25 Jun 1837. Josepha was baptised 3 Mar 1820 at Madron, daughter of William & Elizabeth. ( a little younger than Eliza I know) With a name like Josepha I think I'd opt to be called Eliza. Any thoughts my esteemed colleagues? I think I can answer that myself - in Madron in 1841 are a 20 yr old William and 10 yr old Josepha - think they rounded that one down a bit too far! Back to the drawing board!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 30, 2012 9:56:28 GMT -5
Yep - I had looked at that one a couple of times. In the end I was looking at it in 'vain hope'! CT
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Post by londoner on Mar 30, 2012 10:48:05 GMT -5
believe it or not I also looked at all the ELizas married at St Hilary 1830-37 and only one ( who married a Welshman) was not still in Cornwall by 1851
You can tell the sun is not shining today!
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Post by davidkingmartin on Mar 30, 2012 10:55:23 GMT -5
I am interested in this discussion but from a different perspective altogether. There is a Richard Rowe Madron 1763/Margaret Grenfell (of St.Just) and a Richard Rowe of Madron married to a Jane Grenfell (of Gulval?).I thought that the latter pair were the parents of "my" William Rowe (ggg-father,1819,Madron) but the records clearly show the parents as Richard (no DOB) and Jenefer (Jennifer): Pallot "shows" the wife as a WHITE. There are so many ROWEs in the vicinity that I am not entirely convinced. Hence the search for "clues". Pallot shows Jane as a Grenfell. There are various spellings for these names the further back in time you go...Grenvill etc. David
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Post by londoner on Mar 30, 2012 12:57:15 GMT -5
Jane Grenfell was a widow when she married Richard Rowe, widower on 27 Feb 1809 at Madron, both "of town of Penzance. Witnesses John Earls & M Wright. As you know Jane & Jennifer are interchangeble.
There are a few marriages of a Grenfell to Jane which might be her - are there any clues in the children's names to a possible maiden name for Jane?
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