Joseph Trewhella, Part 2

[Zenobia]

Since the other thread went off into Williamses, I thought I would get back to Joseph here.

To summarize, it was decided that the Joseph Trewhella who lived at Illogan, after a stint in En Zed, was the son of James and Catherine (Pidwell) Trewhella.

And the Joseph Trewhella who ended up in Coos Co., Oregon was assumed to be the son of Matthew and Sally (Williams) Trewhella.

Now, the problem is, Ian has referred to a 'third' Joseph Trewhella, ie: the man in Berks Co., Pa, in 1880.

Is it not possible that the Joseph in Berks Co. is the same man as the one who later appears in Oregon?

Let's look at what we know.

1. The Cornish records do not support three Joseph Trewhellas, only two.

2. Joseph in Berks is the same age as the Joseph who shows up later in Oregon.

3. He is in Penna. in 1880, the place where the Oregon Joseph's son Matthew is born some 10 years later (Berks and Schuylkill share a border).

4. The Berks Co. Joseph 'disappears' after 1880, as does his wife Elizabeth.

5. The Coos Co. Joseph 'appears' in Penna. ca. 1890, where his son Matthew is born.

6. The Berks Co. Joseph is listed as married in 1880, but Joseph of Oregon apparently married ca. 1890 to Margaret, since his son is b. ca. 1892-3, thus supporting two marriages of one man.

7. The Coos Co. Joseph immigrated in 1865, but cannot be found in the US in earlier census.

8. Joseph s/o Matthew and Sally had a brother living in New England by 1870, who was there earlier than that as his wife and children arrived in 1867.

9. The Berks Co. Joseph married Elizabeth Curnow in 1867 in New England.

So we have one fellow disappearing in Penna, 10 years before another one of the same name and age appears in Penna.

I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming for it being the same man, marrying twice.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Matthew and Julia even HAD a son named Joseph, born in Cornwall or elsewhere.

As for the two Curnow sisters marrying into two different Trewhella families, I don't see that as all that odd; the Cornish would tend to flock together in any community they shared, and might be even more likely to do so if they shared the same surname.

[Zenobia]

There is an Elizabeth Trewolla, age 31, b. Ireland, keeping a Restaurant in Baltimore in 1870. She is worth 7000 in real esate, a substantial amount in that day and age, so must have owned the restaurant, rather than renting. The 1870, unfortunately, gives no clue as to whether a person is married or single.

[Cornish Terrier]

I will, hopefully, take another look at this tomorrow but I will make at least one point.
The reference of three Joseph Trewhellas being not supported by Cornish records is a little irrelevant!
Firstly - The NZ Joseph has been successfully eliminated from calculations with some pretty fair proof.
We are then left with the possibility of another two of whom one is not substantiated by the Cornish Records.

Yes - it IS possible that the same man married twice and is the only bloke we need to chase down.

BUT - my initial argument did not deal with both these men being born in Cornwall.

Until proven otherwise (this is a challenge for you as well as for me) I am working on the theory that the man who married Elizabeth Curnow in 1867 was NOT born in Cornwall, England or anywhere else but probably the USA.

The family I have so far believed this Joseph belonged to moved to the US in about 1844/45 from what I can gather.
The last child of the family probably born in the UK was Ann - and it is she who I believe married Matthew Curnow at Chesire, CT in 1863.

Now, given that it was Matthew Curnow's sister Elizabeth who married Joseph Trewhella at Meriden, CT in 1867 it is logical to suspect that the Trewhella people were also siblings.

Also - given that this Trewhella family moved to the US in about 1845 and Joseph was born about 1847 then it follows that he (if he does indeed belong to this family) was born in the US.

So - we need to try to find some evidence to prove things one way or the other.

A good start may be to track down the actual marriage record of Joseph Trewhella and Elizabeth Curnow and see if it gives any details of where Joseph was born? - or details of his parents?

It might also be interesting to see if we can find evidence of more than one Joseph Trewhella of similar age in the same Census! ;D

Back to you - dear Sleuth!

[Zenobia]

ianjtrewhella said:

I will, hopefully, take another look at this tomorrow but I will make at least one point.
The reference of three Joseph Trewhellas being not supported by Cornish records is a little irrelevant!

Oh, now you are going to get yourself one heck of an argument here...

Firstly - The NZ Joseph has been successfully eliminated from calculations with some pretty fair proof.
We are then left with the possibility of another two of whom one is not substantiated by the Cornish Records.

Yes - it IS possible that the same man married twice and is the only bloke we need to chase down.

Yep, Zenobia's first law of genealogy - don't invent extra people....

BUT - my initial argument did not deal with both these men being born in Cornwall.

Until proven otherwise (this is a challenge for you as well as for me) I am working on the theory that the man who married Elizabeth Curnow in 1867 was NOT born in Cornwall, England or anywhere else but probably the USA.

The family I have so far believed this Joseph belonged to moved to the US in about 1844/45 from what I can gather.
The last child of the family probably born in the UK was Ann - and it is she who I believe married Matthew Curnow at Chesire, CT in 1863.

Also - given that this Trewhella family moved to the US in about 1845 and Joseph was born about 1847 then it follows that he (if he does indeed belong to this family) was born in the US.

So - we need to try to find some evidence to prove things one way or the other.

I thought that was determined by the 1880 census, which clearly shows a Joseph Trewhella, born in ENGLAND, married, with no wife present, living in PA. And we have his wife, Elizabeth Trewhella, in NJ, b. Ireland (sic - her siblings were), married, with no husband present.

A good start may be to track down the actual marriage record of Joseph Trewhella and Elizabeth Curnow and see if it gives any details of where Joseph was born? - or details of his parents?

Well, the Brits tended to be rather sloppy when it came to details in records (compared to the continent), and the Yanks, being a faster paced society, got even sloppier...so good luck. New England did keep very good records, on a town level, but no thrifty New England pastor ever saw the need to muddle a marriage record with details of the bride and grooms birth... wasted too much paper you see...

It might also be interesting to see if we can find evidence of more than one Joseph Trewhella of similar age in the same Census! ;D

Back to you - dear Sleuth!

Well, this slueth has turned the US census records backwards, sideways and inside out over the last couple of weeks and the Joseph in PA and the Joseph in Oregon is all you're gonna get.

Now, it is not unusual for someone to occasionally go missing on ONE census, but not year after year.

Now, given that it was Matthew Curnow's sister Elizabeth who married Joseph Trewhella at Meriden, CT in 1867 it is logical to suspect that the Trewhella people were also siblings.

Under normal circumstances I would agree with you on this one, but in this case, the evidence just seems against it. It comes down to inventing a child for Mathew and Julia that we have no evidence of...

If we could find some evidence of Mathew and Julia in the 1850 US census it would sure be helpful, but they just aren't there... I am very troubled that we cannot find them....

[Zenobia]

Here is a thought:

Did Matthew or Julia leave a will?

Where did they die again?

[Cornish Terrier]

I agree with you 'to a point' but there is still the possibility that we have another Joseph Trewhella lurking about.
That is why I will not dispense with the theory of the son of Matthew and Julia given the likely and apparent sibling Curnow marriages to Trewhellas in CT.

I know the New England area is not really that big but we have marriages in CT and then we have 'the other' Joseph Trewhella in VT and then moving West so 'it is possible' that these families never crossed paths.
Remember - one family was from Illogan (the Joseph bp. 1847 CON) and moved to the States in the 1860's
The other family was from Ludgvan and moved to the States in the 1840's.

So it is entirely possible that we have two different Joseph Trewhellas here even with New England as a common denominator.

And I think the Curnow side of things might be worth pursuing as it could help prove things one way or t'other!

Then, as far as I know, there is no law against two people named Joseph both marrying someone named Elizabeth.

The PA thing is logical given that Joseph's brother Matthew was there from about 1875/6 and died there sometime before 1920.

Becky can probably help here but here is a brief scenario regarding the sons of Matthew Trewhella and Sally (Williams).

John bp. 1835 Camborne, m. 1859 Truro R.D. to Jemima Rule had two known children who were both born in Cornwall. (Emma Jane in 1860 and John in 1863).

In 1870 John was in Vermont with his brother Matthew and Matthew's family.
In 1871 John's wife and two children are enumerated with Jemima's mother.
John obviously returned to Cornwall and brought his family back to the US.
They arrived in New York August 21st 1873 on the 'City of Montreal' from Liverpool and Queenstown.

Matthew married Eliza Jane Sparnon at Tuckingmill in 1861 and his first four children were born in Cornwall.
The fifth child, Mary, was born in VT November 11th, 1868 (IGI).
Alfred was born VT in 1870.
Charles was born in NY in 1873.
Sarah was born in NJ in 1874.
Frank was born in PA iin 1876.
Helen - unknown
Elizabeth - was born in PA in 1877.

It is possible for a CT connection with Joseph and Elizabeth (Curnow) but .....

I am still inclined to, for the moment, stick with my original idea on this until something more positive comes to the surface.

Now - the Census Records for which you so kindly posted a listing of availability (or existence) is another interesting point.
I believe I did reply with some thoughts on that given that many of today's States were then Territories and not entirely cognisant of their Federal duties. (Hence the sparseness of BDM's in some areas - as I discovered when I was in the US).
So I am not entirely surprised that we cannot find some of these people in the Census records even though, it appears, they must have been there.

As for WILLS - I simply do not know.

But Matthew Trewhella apparently died in CT March 20th 1865.
And Julia Trewhella supposedly also died in CT June 28th 1877.

This information was from Lisette Southard who was a descendant of Martin Trewhella and Sarah (nee Blight).
Martin was the brother of Matthew who married Juliana Lanyon.

Best I can do for now - so back to you!

[Cornish Terrier]

BTW - Our 'cousin' WJC' supplied the marriage information for the two Trewhella/Curnow Marriages in CT so there must be some sort of source somewhere.
I don't believe I have ever seen a Marriage Certificate from that area so do not know what might be recorded.

And - given the 'supposed' completeness of Census Records I find it very strange that we are still missing people who should be there. (refer to previous regarding Territories etc.)

There is much more to this than we can see!

[Zenobia]

ianjtrewhella said:

Then, as far as I know, there is no law against two people named Joseph both marrying someone named Elizabeth.

So you are conceeding the point then, that the man in PA on the 1880 census is married to the Elizabeth living in NJ, and it is the same man who later shows up in Oregon with a second wife?

But your contention is that this is some other Elizabeth, not Elizabeth Curnow?

And that the Joseph Trewhella who DID marry Elizabeth Curnow is lurking out there in 1880, somewhere unseen?

I am asking for this clarification, because it is getting a little confusing, and I just want to make certain of your point, before continuing the argument discussion...

[Cornish Terrier]

I am conceeding it as a 'possibility' only.

We may certainly still be looking at two different Joseph Trewhella's but we need something more than what we already have before either theory can be discounted.

And it is also possible that the Joseph (PA) and Elizabeth (NJ) in 1880 may not be connected at all.

And there is little point 'arguing' the Census thing just now because we know that there are still many missing who should be there if the Census is as complete as mentioned previously.

We need more information from other sources - if we can find it!

[Zenobia]

ianjtrewhella said:

BTW - Our 'cousin' WJC' supplied the marriage information for the two Trewhella/Curnow Marriages in CT so there must be some sort of source somewhere.
I don't believe I have ever seen a Marriage Certificate from that area so do not know what might be recorded.

Crash course in American Vital records (or lack thereof ) :

First of all, a marriage 'certificate' would be a parchment-type form (probably with some hearts or flowers on it) that the local ministers and JPs would keep handy, and which they would fill out in their loveliest handwriting, and present to the bride and groom at the conclusion of the ceremony. These were taken home, and usually kept in the family Bible. No copies were made or retained by the minister of JP (can you imagine the paper storage nightmare this would create? ). So no certificate would exist, unless the Trewhella descendants had preserved it...

This does not mean, however, that no records were kept, so here is a synopsis of vital records in the US.

First of all, vital records have never been (and are still not) kept on a federal level here. The records are maintained by the individual states, so what exists varies from state to state. Most states did not begin keeping state VR's until close to the turn of the last century. Penna. for instance, began in 1906, and Ohio in 1913.

Records were kept on a county level, by state mandate, in some locations.

To use Penna. and Ohio as examples:

In 1852, Penna ordered all counties to keep Vital Records. So few persons responsible (ministers, JPs, doctors etc) complied that in 1855 the state abandoned the project. The few extant records represent perhaps only 25% of the actual vitals for each county, with about half of the counties having lost or destroyed the records.

Beginning again in 1885, Penna. required all marriages to be kept on a county level, and this was complied with, probably about 95% of all actual marriages being recorded. These records are quite detailed, usually listing the place of birth of the parties, and the parents names.

Beginning again in 1893, Penna. required records of births and deaths to be kept in the counties. These records are less detailed than the marriage records. Then in 1906, the state began recording all Vitals.

Ohio counties began recording marriages as soon as each county was established, but the records give only the name of the parties and the date of marriage. In 1867, the counties were required to record births, deaths and marriages, and the records became somewhat more detailed.

Now Connecticut, where the Trewhella marriages took place, did not begin recording Vitals on a state level until 1897. Prior to that, all records (such as they were) for New England were kept on a town level. I have seen some NE Town Records, and the amount of detail depends on the Clerk who was keeping them.

So the Trewhella marriages probably come from the Meriden and Cheshire town records, which I am sure can be accessed on microfilm from the LDS. I doubt if they give the names of the parents, however, because if they did, I am sure your source would have noted that.

In areas where vital records on an official level did not exist, one must rely almost solely on church records.

[Zenobia]

Matthew Trewhella apparently died in CT March 20th 1865.
Julia Trewhella supposedly also died in CT June 28th 1877.

Ah, but the question is - where in CT? That little state has more than a dozen counties, and wills are filed on an county level. If we can find the county, I may be able to get a volunteer from RAOGK to check.

Now, if Matthew died in CT in 1865, and his daughter was married there in 1863, and Joseph (who you think may be his son) m. there in 1867 and Julia died there in 1877, then we should at least expect to find Julia on the 1870 census of CT... but where is she? This is so frustrating...

Has anyone found the family on a ship's list?

[Cornish Terrier]

You are so right with much of what you say - BUT - I think you are now picking up on one or two of my own earlier points about Census and other records in the US??

I will read through this note again later today (I hope) and try to be a little more coherent (AUSSIES one the CRICKET).

As for the CT Wills, Burials etc. - I would suggest starting with New Haven and Hartford Co.'s as that is where most of the relevent events seem to have occurred. (At least the ones I know of.)

But I would really love to hear from our old friend WJC and get him involved in this.

[Cornish Terrier]

Just working back to one of your earlier postings here regarding Elizabeth TREWOLLA in Baltimore.
I decided to have another glance through some of the earlier notes and found this one again and it may become a little interesting - maybe!

With most of this I can only work from the 'bare index' supplied for the use of non-subscribers so bear with me as I expound on what I have.

First problem is that we do not know if Elizabeth was married, single, widowed or if she had children so I will simply list what I have from here.

Nothing in 1880 (that I have found) and 1890 is virtually useless due to the destruction of records in the fire.

But iin 1900 we find something interesting (and it might be worth you taking a look to glean more detail ):-

At Baltimore City (Independent City), Maryland we have:-

Mary TREWOLLA, bn. abt. 1864
Annie TREWOLLA, bn. abt. 1888
Matilda TREWOLLA, bn. abt. 1894
John TREWOLLA, bn. abt. 1890
Lula TREWOLLA, bn. abt. 1898
August TREWOLLA, bn. abt. (no info - suggests born that year)

1910 - I found nothing.

1920 - found something

At Baltimore (Independent City), Maryland

Mary TREWOLLA, bn. abt. 1864
John TREWOLLA, bn. abt. 1890
Matilda TREWOLLA, bn. abt. 1895
Maria TREWOLLA, bn. abt. 1902
Elizabeth TREWOLLA, bn. abt. 1904
Lillian TREWOLLA, bn. abt. 1906

1930

At Baltimore (Independent City), Maryland

Mary TREWOLLA, bn. abt. 1865

Looks like a possible lineage with the 1870 Elizabeth possibly being the mother of Mary who survived until at least 1930.

It is from here that questions need to be asked, I think!

I do have some Trewolla information that I have found over the last six months so I will need to get time to search through it all to see if there might be anything to be added.

Meanwhile, back to you for info from the later Census Records and I will do my best with the rest.