Cornish Terrier.... OOPS!!!

[Mal]

This post is regarding a possible Eastern Cornish connection to my family.

A while back I posted a message about
Elizabeth Cornish who marries John Hodge at Stoke Damerel (Plymouth) in 1852.

Elizabeth is given as being the d/o of Alexander Cornish, TAILOR (not sailor as I had thought). Her age is given as 30, therefore her birth should be around 1821, not 1831- likewise John Hodge b1822 son of John Hodge (horsedriver).

CT I am afraid I am guilty of sending you on a wild goose chase- because I misread the cert- in defense the handwriting on the cert is a bit faded, but all the same- SORRY MATE!!!

Now my dilemna is this.
1: I am going to have to revise the Hodge family in Plymout (again), because I think I may have a few false positives there!

2: On the 1841 census I do find an Alexander Cornish at POUGHILL in NE Cornwall, aged 60-odd and recorded as being a tailor. He is still alive in 1851, along with his wife Mary Cornish nee Jewell.

The Alexander Cornish born 1814 appears to have been his son, and dies in 1893 in PLYMOUTH!!! - Possible connection.

I think I may be onto something here given that there are few Alexander Cornish's around on the 1841 census that fit, we have the same trade and a possible link with Plymouth.

Now for the problems...
I can't find a birth/baptism for Elizabeth that is consistant with her being born c1820, I find an 1815 birth that would have made her 35/36 at her marriage- I am pretty sure it gives age 30! Also I can't find her on the census, there is an Elizabeth Cornish recorded in 1841 as a house servant, but nothing to prove it's the right girl.

At her wedding she is recorded as being a "house servant" by profession and living in Plymouth at the time, the same address as her spouse John Hodge, also a servant at the time- might we presume that they were working together at this house?


ANYWAY!!!!!!!! If anyone has any connection/information to/about this family CORNISH at Poughill please let me know.

Also CT. Sorry about sending you on a wild goose chase! Just goes to show how easy it is to overlook/misread something and go off on a tangent!

Thanks
Malcolm

[Cornish Terrier]

Tut, tut Malcolm! - No need to apologise.

If you don't wander off on the odd wild goose chase occasionally you find that you never learn much!

Right - to business.

You now have Alexander Cornish, tailor, at Poughill in 1841 with wife Mary which, given so few of the name, may probably be a good start.

But then again .......

1851 Census

Charles the Martyr, Plymouth

Gasking(?) Place No 3

(John ?? and family, shipowner)
Ann Kellon(?), servant, unm., 36, servant, Cornwall, Tintagel
Elizabeth CORNISH, servant, unm., 28, servant, Cornwall, Stratton

1851 Census

Poughill

Alexander CORNISH, head, mar., 74, taylor & grocer, Cornwall, Poughill
Mary do., wife, mar., 74, Cornwall, St Breward

Now on the face of it, when combined with marriage details, this looks good.

We have unmarried Elizabeth, about the right age, working as a servant in Plymouth.

BUT - the following baptism tends to make life a little difficult again:-

Elizabeth d/o Mary CORNISH, widow, baptised 7th September 1823 at Stratton

(Stratton and Poughill are adjoining Parishes)

Although this Elizabeth looks a possibility I have just done some checking of baptisms in Stratton and it would appear that her father was actually Roger Cornish thereby eliminating her from the equation.

So back to the drawing board again.

Probably time for a question.

Malcolm - you say the Certificate is very difficult to read and you can therefore not confidently make out the age recorded for Elizabeth??

Do you have this document scanned into your computer??
If so, have you tried enhancing the image to try and get a better idea of what that age might be?

I think we really need to get a more accurate idea of Elizabeth's age because there is yet another potential problem here.

In the 1851 Census Mary Cornish appears to be 74.

That is okay because she would have been about 45 at the time Elizabeth was born and Elizabeth would have been the last (or near last) child.

But the 1841 Census puts a totally different light on matters!!

In 1841 Mary is recorded as 69 (and it is extremely clear on the original) which means she would have been 50 or more when Elizabeth was born.

Now that I have to dispute and would say that Elizabeth clearly could not have been born as late as 1821.

But then take a look at baptisms to Alexander and Mary:-

Amanda bp. 22nd October 1806 Stratton
Thomas bp. 4th July 1813 Poughill
Elizabeth bp. 19th November 1815 Poughill
Alexander bp. 19th June 1819 Poughill

Alexander Cornish married Mary Jewell of Jacobstow by Licence 22nd October 1806 at Stratton

So from the above list of children it would appear there should be more - especially between 1806 and 1813.

And also note there is no Mary which I find most odd given that Alexander's mother appears also to have been Mary.

Alexander s/o Alexander and Mary Cornish bp. 24th May 1777 Poughill

Alexander Cornish married Mary Greenaway 5th April 1774 Poughill

Another point of note from the ramblings above:-

The baptism of Amanda CORNISH at Stratton occurred on the same day that Alexander married Mary JEWELL at Stratton.

Where does 'Amanda' come from when Alexander's mother is Mary as is that of his wife??

Somehow I think we are on the same old merry-go-round despite the new data.

CT

[Mal]

Right! I can't scan the image but I went over it with a magnifying glass, this is what we have

7TH OCTOBER 1852

JOHN HODGE-30- BACHELOR-SERVANT-66 CHAPEL STREET-SON OF JOHN HODGE- HAIR-DRESSER (!!!!!!!!!!!! I had read this as horsedriver!!! The "s" is one of those "f" type ones!!!)

ELIZABETH CORNISH-31-SPINSTER- no rank/profession given-66 CHAPEL STREET-DAUGHTER OF ALEXANDER CORNISH-TAILOR

nb- neither father deceased. Both live at same address in Plymouth- unusual for the time if unmarried therefore I presume that Elizabeth must have been a servant at that same address.

CofE Marriage at Parish Church of Stoke Damerel.
Witnesses RICHARD HODGE & WILLIAM SYMONS (could be Symmons-very faded!!!)

That's all I have....!

What I do notice is that there are very few Alexander Cornish's in the whole of Britain and also that they seem to have handed the name down from father to son...!

Anything we can come up with here I wonder?

[Cornish Terrier]

Thanks Malcolm.

I need to ask another question - is there any possible chance that '31' could turn out to be '37'?

I am clutching at a small straw in a big pond in the hope that the document is more than it looks even through a magnifying glass.

But I will try and think of other options.

I know Alexander Cornish is not a common name and seems fairly confined but .....

I wonder if there is still the chance of another lurking about somewhere who may also have been a tailor and who was dead before 1841.

Remember that just because a parent is not recorded as 'deceased' on a marriage certificate it does not mean that said parent is actually still in the land of the living.

Gotta make sure we don't forget anything!

But at the moment I cannot find Elizabeth or John in 1851 or 1861 - no matter what I seem to try!

The nearest is the one I mentioned in my last who now appears to have been the daughter of Roger and Mary Cornish of Stratton.

Of course - there is another option!

If you have had a read of the latest Quick updates ........

In case the meaning escapes you the scenario was as follows:-

John Jenkyn Quick s/o William and Elizabeth (nee Curnow) bp. 17th April 1819 St Ives

John Jenkyn Quick s/o George and Mary (nee Gregory) bp. 22nd May 1820 St Ives

'A' John Quick died in 1837. (A few others died around and after but this is the one of interest.)

John Jenkyn Quick married Martha Stevens 1st September 1844 at St Ives

No here's the rub - John's father was clearly recorded on the Marriage Certificate as GEORGE!

Lannanta and I were at odds over this.

Amongst the children of John and Martha were son William and daughter Elizabeth Curnow Quick.

That suggested to me that, regardless of what was written on the marriage certificate, it was more likely that John was the son of William and Elizabeth.

However the name on the MC was, as I said, clearly GEORGE.

As per Lannanta's post the death of John Quick in 1837 records him as age 18, fisherman, son of George Quick with George Quick present at death.

Therefore the name on the Marriage Certificate must be incorrect!

This is most certainly not the first time I have encountered this.

So my suggestion is that we should keep it in mind that Elizabeth Cornish may not necessarily have been the daughter of Alexander Cornish just because that was written on the Marriage Certificate.

Just something more to throw in the mix. ;D

Will post another note shortly.

[Cornish Terrier]

Well Malcolm - I had the 'next' message already to go, hit the send button and ...........

So I will now post a slightly abbreviated version.

First of all is the list of children for Alexander and Mary CORNISH:-

Amanda bp. 23rd October 1806 Stratton (IGI shows 22nd October)
Ann bp. 27th March 1808 Poughill
Samuel bp. 30th September 1810 Poughill
Thomas bp. 4th July 1813 Poughill
Elizabeth bp. 19th November 1815 Poughill
Alexander bp. 19th June 1819 Poughill

Samuel appears in 1861 as a 'tailor & draper & grocer' at Poughill.

He married Mary Ann Gilbert 15th May 1833 at Poughill and had seven children that I can find.

Strangely his first child was a son named Thomas and he did not use the name Alexander until his last child (fourth son).

Alexander himself was buried at Poughill 16th March 1856 age 79.
Mary was buried at Poughill 14th January 1860 age 87.

In the context of the Census records this is interesting.

In the 1841 Census Mary's age was recorded as 69 which equates to a birth around 1772.

But in 1851 she was 74 with a projected birthdate of 1776 or 1777.

Taking the old 'two out of three' scenario it would appear that 1772 is the more correct date of birth.

This would of course mean it extremely unlikely that Mary would be having children after 1820 when she would have been 48.

So I need to ask again about that age of '31' on the Certificate - is there any chance that it is actually '37'?

At the moment it certainly appears that Elizabeth bp. 1815 would be the girl who married John Hodge.

If only she/they could be found in 1851 and 1861 at least.

CT

[Mal]

Hi CT-

Thanks for the updates.... I have checked again and I can't really say that the certficiate gives us a pssible 37 for Elizabeth. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean that she couldn't be....

31 was already quite old to be married at the time, is it possible that she were 37 and she may have told a little Tom Pepper (lie) here? Embarrassment? Feminine guile?

It doesn't help that Devon Census Records are incomplete, at least as far as FREE CEN is concerned.

John Hodge and Elizabeth Cornish had possibly 7 children This also impacts on the age if Elizabeth were born in 1815 she would have been 55 at the birth of her last child? Is that possible- if our links are right perhaps it ran in the family???:-

Edwin John born 1852 Plymouth - confirmed, my G-G-Grandfather.
Elizabeth born 1853 Plymouth
Thomas Ackland born 1859 Plymouth (I have reservations about this character the second name is what bothers me.... )
Phillis born 1861 Plymouth
Frederick born 1865 Plymouth
Alice born 1867 Plymouth
Ernest born 1870 Plymouth


Another problem is that looking for HODGE and CORNISH on the Cornwall/Devon border is a bit like looking for ROWE in West Penwith!!!!

Hmm... it's one of those tempting ones where everything nearly looks right but you have those nagging doubts too...

[Cornish Terrier]

G'day Malcolm - your latest has enabled me to find a little more for you.

I have downloaded some Census images from 1861 and 1871 and will send them via email so you can see first-hand what I am talking about.

From what I have been able to find you can separate your supplied list of children into two families.

Cut the first family after Edwin and place all ther rest into the second!

I have been unable to find your John and Elizabeth in the 1861 Census and nor can I find an Edwin Hodge anywhere that even remotely resembles your man.

This suggests the possibility they were out of the Country for a time.

I have found them in 1871 at Plympton St Mary where John Hodge was an indoor servant, footman.

At this time they had two children - Edwin age 18 and Mary Elizabeth age 11. (Edwin is recorded as Edwin S Hodge).

I have also found Edwin in 1881 but he is boarding at St Andrew, Plymouth.

The other family was at Charles, Plymouth where John Hodge was a saddler in 1861 and then coach trimmer in 1871.

In 1871 your Elizabeth is recorded as being born at Poughill (as opposed to Plymouth for the other Elizabeth) and gives her age as 48.

This is fairly consistent with her recorded age at marriage and equates to about 1822.

A number of problems present themselves here.

1. Mary would have been about 48 or 49 at the time of Elizabeth's birth meaning she must certainly have been the last child.
2. We currently have no baptism for this Elizabeth.
3. The Elizabeth of 1815 now appears to have died young.
4. We have no burial record for this earlier Elizabeth.
5. Where were John and Elizabeth and family in 1861?

And I could probably find a couple of other problems to add in if I tried hard enough!

But it certainly looks much better with Elizabeth having only two children and the last born about 1860 when she would have been about 40.

This would be more consistent with a later marriage I think.

Standby for the Census copies via email.

CT

[Mal]

CT--- thanks for the emails! I am going over them now. I have a sneaking suspicion that two related families are being confused here... I will get back to you on this one..

[Cornish Terrier]

Malcolm - I will look forward to what you come back with.

Am I to understand that there is the possibility of the two men named John Hodge being some sort of cousins?

Or is there something else here that I may be missing?

CT

(I hope the Druids did not allow two men named John Hodge to marry two ladies named Elizabeth Cornish within a few years of each other and in the same general neighbourhood!)

[Mal]

Hi CT... It's all a bit Charles Dickens at this point! This is from my Grandmother....

Edwin John Hodge is not likely to be found with his family on early census takings because as a child he was "adopted" in a sense by an aristocratic family to be the playmate of their only child son. I do not know the name of the family in question. When this only son was old enough to go away to boarding school poor Edwin had to go back to his family. This was a bit of a blow because he had been brought up to be a "gentleman" and now was back with his "peasant" family. They did not know what to do with him, so it was decided he ought to learn a trade at least, and he became a leather worker for horse bridles and saddles etc.
Now, off the top of my head, I think this is confirmed by later census records.
We now find a John Hodge who is also a saddler by profession and who has a daughter by the name of Phillis, Phillis was my Grandmother's sister's name too, and it may be connected. This is only a hypothesis, but we have similarity of names and trades, enough to cause confusion and it may be that there is a connection.
As I say, this is family history, handed down over nigh on 160 years orally, so I am cautious about the exact details, but that may suggest that we have come across something.

This family are problematic.... we have Edwin's bride Lydia Pond, who according to the census was from Modbury in Devon, yet according to my Gran was from London. Her family were killed in a housefire in London and she was sent to live with relatives in Modbury. Sure enough, I find her as a "relative" with the Fox family, aged about 12 in Modbury Devon!!!! On her wedding cert her father, William Pond is indicated as deceased!
All of this just goes to show how much we should take even the census with a pinch of salt, and perhaps not write off those old stories handed down from generation to generation either!

Anyway, I don't think we are far enough back in time for Druids, but who knows? As I say, it all does read a bit like a Dickensian tragedy.

[Cornish Terrier]

Malcolm - I will try and read through this again later tonight once I can sit back and relax.

Once read I will have another hunt around and see if there might be something more I can dig out.

CT

[Mal]

Hi CT- just to get back to you on that info you sent. I am fairly happy with the Poughill solution and think we are on the right track here!
Just goes to show how careful you have to be with census information etc ....