Curnow, Thomas Herbert

[sue]

Hoping I now have this more correctly placed, rather than where I started on my "New member" introduction 22/4/09!

Firstly, thanks CT for the rundown on the 6 William Curnows who might have been the groom in 1777 Towednack marriage; yes, the young deaths and the bachelor I had found; thanks for the sons of James & Jane & John & Elizabeth detail, very useful. My William who married in 1777 was then 43 years old at the time he married widow Margery Eddy.

To the questions you have on a few generations later:

John Curnow christened Lelant 26/11/1815 had many children; including Thomas born 14/7/1864, his youngest.

I know for definite definite (I knew her, as did other living relatives) that my GGmother was Emma Jane Cannarton Thomas - a distinctive name. (& her ancestry is readily found). The marriage certificate ( I have a copy) indeed identifies my GGfather as Thomas Herbert Curnow. Emma Jane Cannarton Curnow in 1901 census is in Halsetown, St Ives, England with her 2 young sons, (my Gfather & Guncle), at her parents' house. Her 2 sisters and one of her many older (mining) brothers are also there. Her husband Thomas Herbert Curnow is not there. EJC Curnow's 2nd son, my Gfather, is Herbert. (Conceived between wedding Oct 1899 & New York sailing of Thomas Curnow March 1900.) So the Herbert on the wedding certificate is not a mistake.

Now I have puzzled & mused over where this middle name Herbert (for Thomas Curnow) came from, as it's not in baptism transcript of 1864. Simply adopted? A"nickname"? ???There were certainly a few Thomas Curnows of the same age very locally for confusion.

It may be of interest to show how I got to the one born 14/7/1864 being he who married Emma JC Thomas:

Thomas Herbert Curnow age 35 on marriage cert 12/10/1899; father John, miner.

age 35 on the UK passenger Incoming List from Cape Town to Southampton England 4/8/1899. Family information agrees that he was abroad mining in 1899, returned to England mid/late 1899, then very soon after was married to EJC Thomas in Halsetown St Ives England, who he had been seeing 1898 when he was over in England. The Passenger list 4/8/1899 has him as TH Curnow; and listed right next to him is J Nicholls. J Nicholls is the witness at his wedding 9 weeks later.

age 35 on sailing from Southampton to New York 31/3/1900, and listed immediately next to him fellow miner J Thomas age 24 - James Thomas, another witness at the October 1899 wedding and closest brother of my GGmother EJC Thomas was a miner aged 24 at that time, mostly abroad.

The other possible Thomas Curnows (from Birth Indexes) of the right age to be 35 on wedding day Oct 1899 I have eliminated - fairly painstakingly! - one by one, cross-checking with census information, and then the extra info of the arrival at Southampton, and I sent for copies of each of their birth certificates eventually.

• Thomas son of John & Elizabeth Stevens is 7 and 17 in the 1871 and 1881 censuses; so, he must have been born between 4 April 1863 and 2 April 1864 - in fact birth certificate shows 18/8/1863. So yes could have been 35 at wedding day per census info, but not per birth certificate; and would have been 36 at time of New York sailing. And, family information is that our Thomas was one of 5 brothers; this one was one of 3. (And a family in Canada claims this one as their Gfather, not dying till 1944, marrying an Agnes Oates if I recall correctly, and emigrating c 1880s? Children born in Canada.)
  
  To the US census June 1900 information for Thomas H Curnow Teller, Colorado: birth in England of July 1864 = only one possible per Birth records, the Thomas Curnow son of John Curnow & Mary Roach was the only one born at that time (birth certificates.)
  (Thomas Henry Curnow from Stithians born 14/1/1864 would have been 36 by then, not 35; Thomas son of Elizabeth would have been 36 - but I think I'm repeating myself!)
  
  I agree the US census says 1st year to US 1882. Thomas Curnow son of John & Mary certainly wasn't in England for the 1891 census. He would have been only 18 in 1882, but he was the youngest of 5 brothers, all of whom went off abroad mining; his father John had died, so it seems entirely feasible. And very recently (last week) I did find on a South Dakota website a listing of applications for naturalisation (Stage 1?? - I am way out of my depth here!) for a Robert and Thomas Curnow (Robert was his closest age brother), but embarrassingly I can't see where I've put that information, although I think it was early 1880s - and I realise it might not be them.
  
  So the question is, as a naturalised US citizen why is he back in England seeing my GGmother in 1898? I don't know. He originated from there; his widowed mother still lived there. Why is he coming back from South Africa 1899. I would surmise he is seeking his fortune wherever he can find it. (I would add, why is a 35 year old marrying a 20 year old pretty girl, who is the 1stborn girl of parents who had 6 boys by the time she was born, parents who gave her not one but 2 middle names, let her and her 2 boys live with them and supported them, so clearly she mattered to her parents...) Does Thomas have another wife in US that we don't know about? Money and photos were sent to wife EJC in England, but we don't know of him returning to England....
  
  The US death information you have found is interesting, but not perfect matches as you say. I feel so inadequate; I searched on and off for months for US death information and didn't get far - but I'm not great at this! One of my GGmother's brothers died in Lead, Lawrence County, South Dakota 1911 (mentioned on family tombstone in St Ives Barnoon cemetery) and family thought Thomas Curnow died in South Dakota Black Hills; but my finding GGmother's brother died there could mean that that geography came from the brother's death, and the husband, Thomas Curnow, was in another mining place. The Stanislaus County California death is interesting, although age at 5/6/06 for a birth of 14/7/1864 should strictly be 41 (nearly 42!)...
  
  And I will just finally add that 1911 census has GGmother EJCCurnow widowed.
  
  Apologies for length of this, but this is The key person in the family line!
  
  Sue
  
  
  
  
  

[Cornish Terrier]

Sue - no need to apologise for lengthy postings! Just take a look through the site and see some of mine over the last couple of years! ;D

Your information is a great help and each part of it is very well explained.

I will make one point though - when it comes to the recording of age in the US Census (or any other) be careful not to take as 'absolute' what is recorded.

And the same goes for the US Social Security Death Index!

I have only really been researching my own family in US Census records for about five weeks but have seen enough now to confidently make the above statement.

I have several members of the Trewhella clan whose birth details as recorded in the 1900 US Census are not quite correct.

For example a 'John Trewhella' recorded in 1900 as born August 1865 actually has his birth recorded in the September Qtr of 1864 in UK BMD Indexes.

You will find quite often that the year of birth is not accurate even though the month may be.

And then make a comparison between a birth as recorded in 1900 with the birth date recorded in the SSDI - often out by one year.

But after a quick read through your note I must agree with your findings so the next step will be to work through it again carefully and update my own database.

And then I will take another look at it all and compare it with information I have found before deciding where might be the next place to look.

It is certainly unfortunate that the Indexed Death for Thomas H CURNOW in California is so difficult to read but I will see what I can do with that.

A couple of hours off to watch Essendon in the football and then let's see what I can come up with.

CT

[sue]

Hope football went right way! :

One final tiny snippet clue I have: photo in full masonic regalia that I have that started my whole search (or "obsession I've discovered" as my son would have it ;D)
says on back
"29 Triennial Conclave San Francisco Cal Sep 1904".
I searched on this, but didn't learn anything.

Oh yes and as I put it back in the file (haven't learned to operate scanner yet - I know, pathetic! ) I was reminded that I have one other photo that I guess is him :- , a poor copy kindly passed to me by a relative of an older generation, also his direct descendant, that is from a studio in Dover New Jersey, looking a bit younger/fuller of face (I don't have the original to know if anything written on the back of the photo.)

Thanks for the caution about inexact years in records. Makes it a little of an artform, rather than pure 100% logic, doesn't it?

Sue

[Deleted]

Hi Sue

"29 Triennial Conclave San Francisco Cal Sep 1904".

Freemasonry is pretty universal and it is likely that terms used in the good old USofA would also be similar elsewhere. In New Zealand a conclave is a meeting of a side order of Freemasonry called the Secret Monitor.

Kind regards

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

Football turned out just right - the Bombers (Essendon) got up in the last few seconds of the game to win by five points! ;D

Haven't done anything in depth so far from your last message but have had a bit of a look round for possible Masonic Cemetery burials for Thomas.

No luck so far but worth a try.

And I was thinking - if the photo shows Thomas in 'Full Regalia' then I would think there should be something written about him somewhere.

I don't know the protocols etc. of the Masons but it 'sounds' like he may have been dressed in something more than the regular member.

Will have to keep looking and see if there is anything to be found.

CT

[Sarch]

I found masonic jewels for sale on Worthpedia from the 29th Conclave in California 1904
www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/masonic-jewels-medals-knights-templat-29th-triennal

I found this travelog "A Merry Crusade to the Golden Gate" A compete story of the 29th Conclave. - which lists the travels to the 1904 conclave and mentions some delegates/attendees on pages 157 - 162 you might find more
www.archive.org/stream/merrycrusadetogo00erkerich

Just points of interest - dont know if you will find anything useful

Sarch

[sue]

Thanks each; the masonic thing is a sideline I knew nothing about at all - but I know a wee bit now - and from the book on the link kindly provided that this was a national event he was attending - so no clue from that as to his whereabouts really.

He's not mentioned in the book - although will look at the book more closely to get an idea of the event. Lovely. I don't know, maybe they all dressed up in what to me looks like regalia. (As an aside, I learnt from the "jewels" link that an old tiepin I found in my dad's things could maybe be a masonic thing - but goodness knows whose, and it won't be this chap's, as he didn't pass anything on that I know.)

I'm thinking a lot of people were masons around then, but maybe there's a germ of a trail there somewhere.

Sue

[Deleted]

Hi Sue

Some of the old secrecy thing is evaporating quite quickly as the fraternity realises that it needs to be attractive to potential men as opposed to hiding away in the background. To that end a number of the Grand Lodges are a lot more forthcoming with information relating to past Masons. You may have some success in that area.

I was originally mistaken with the term 'conclave' and what it means over on your side of the world. In New Zealand the side order of Freemasonry called Knights Templar meet in a preceptory and their ritual is based on the Templars of old.

Your fathers tie pin may well be a masonic pin so if you could photograph it I may be able to determine that for you.

Lannanta

[sue]

Have been in contact today for the 1st time with Bill Curnow in US, who confirms that my Thomas Herbert Curnow is he who was born 14 July 1864 Polpear Lelant (well, he has 15 July - must be the differnet time zone) and has him as I do as son of John Curnow & Mary Roach. I hope for confirmation on the William Curnow son of William Curnow & Jone Trewella in 1700s.

He also has "Herbert" as an adopted middle name.

He is interested in the possible 1906 deaths CT found for Thomas H Curnow in the US, so I have copied that extract to him; hope that's ok. He has a note that the death could have been as early as 1901 - but no record to confirm that, just theory info someone sent him (my father before he died, apparently).

In due course maybe the masonic line is worth trying to pursue.....

Sue

[Cornish Terrier]

Hello Sue - glad you have made contact with Bill Curnow.

No problem with passing on that detail regarding the death of Thomas H Curnow and I will be interested on Bill's further views should he be able to confirm (or otherwise) that this is the right person.

CT