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Post by judylynn on Mar 24, 2009 15:19:10 GMT -5
Hello onen hag oll!
My surnames are listed in my signature, but for easier viewing (and in hopes of snagging more attention) those are the Cornish surnames of my great-great-great-grandparents -- living around Calstock in the early to mid-1800s.
Then the previous generation (4xgreats) includes:
ROWE of Calstock so far
SPARGO of Stithians
probably VIGUS/VIGURS (in Devon?)
and possibly WILLIAMS
FYI, my MERTON/MURTON branch started out as MORETON in the 1500s and then MORTON.
Hope to find some cousins and researchers in common!
~JudyLynn
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 24, 2009 16:33:56 GMT -5
Hi JudyLynn
Although no direct connection of mine I do have the name VIGURS in my database.
Thomas VIGURS of Penzance married Margaret VEALE at Madron 26th June 1714.
All I know from that is that Margaret was baptised at Madron about 1679 daughter of John and Honor VEALE.
There was also a Thomas VIGURS, gent., of Penzance who married Grace BLWETT of Penzance 22nd December 1805 at Madron.
And George BORLASE of Ampthill married Margaret VIGURS of Penzance 26th February 1784 at Madron.
I have two other VIGURS girls who married at Madron and again both were of Penzance.
I know nothing of the origins of these VIGURS people but it might be interesting to see if they connect with yours in some way.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 1, 2009 3:32:17 GMT -5
JudyLynn - let's start having a look at your family and determine just where we need to go. 8th April 1860 Calstock by Banns Joseph JOHNS, age 21, bachelor, miner of Gunnislake (son of William Johns, miner) Mary Ann MURTON, age 20, spinster of Gunnislake (daughter of Elisha Murton, miner) Witnesses:- John Baker, Caleb Johns I believe this will be the marriage of your ancestors. 1861 Census Gunnislake Joseph JOHNS, head, mar, 23, copper miner, Cornwall, Calstock Mary Ann do., wife, mar, 21, Devon, Beerferris Mary do., daur., 9 mths, Cornwall, Calstock Joseph bp. 10th June 1838 Calstock son of William and Elizabeth JOHNS, labourer, of Chilsworthy 26th January1832 Calstock by Banns William JOHNS of the parish Elizabeth OSBORN, sojourner Witnesses:- Thos. Osburn, Stephen Johns 1841 Census Calstock Clitters Lodge William JOHNS, 44, ag. lab Elizabeth do., 40 John do., 15 Grace do., 14 William do., 8 Alice do., 6 Thomas do., 4 Joseph do., 2 Ann do., 10 Richard do., 1 1851 Census Calstock Village of Dimson William JOHNS, head, mar., 53, farm labourer, Southill Elizabeth do., wife, mar., 50, Calstock Ann do., daur, 19, Calstock Allas do., daur, 15, Calstock William do., son, 17, copper miner, Calstock Thomas do., son, 14, copper miner, Calstock Joseph do., son, 12, copper miner, Calstock Richard do., son, 11, Calstock Nathaniel do., son, 9, Calstock James Henry do., son, 6, Calstock William Henry do., grandson, 5 (?), Calstock I believe all of this should be correct in which case I now know that I need to look at Southill for William. In the 1861 Census William's birthplace is again recorded as Southill but his age (65) now reflects a birth about 1795/6. And it is at this point that I have become confused.  I can currently find no record of a William JOHNS baptised at SOUTHILL in the right time-frame yet in consecutive Census years William states that as his birthplace. The nearest are a baptism at Kilkhampton right up in the North or another at Maker down opposite Plymouth. What I need to know is whether the Stithians connection comes via the JOHNS family and, if so, how and when. There is a baptism for a William JOHNS at Stithians in 1797 but he is son of Sampson and Joan of Wendron. Much appreciated if you could update some of these connections for me and I will work from there.  (Will take a look at the other side once I clear this little problem up.) CT |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 1, 2009 3:42:02 GMT -5
JudyLynn - belay that last request!  I had forgotten that I have transcripts of the Southill PRs and have now just found William. William s/o William and Grace JOHNS bp. 2nd October 1796 South Hill 8th May 1793 South Hill by Banns William JOHNS, single man of South Hill Grace SOWDEN, spinster of South Hill Witnesses:- Joseph Williams, John Lawndry At this point we are still dealing with South Hill where the first JOHNS marriage I have found is 1739. (There may be earlier if the name is recorded as JOHN.) I would still like to know if the JOHNS family has a connection wih Stithians or if that connection is rather from the OSBORN side. Either way I will try and find out more for you. CT |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 1, 2009 9:03:48 GMT -5
Seems it helps to keep scanning all the threads! Just found this again in the Towednack section and it answers part of my question. Now - let's see where this might lead! I have just found Elisha and Mary Ann in the 1851 Census and it is interesting. 1851 Census Parish of Beerferris Town of Buralston Frog Street Elisha MOURTON, head, mar., 37, miner, Cornwall GWENNAP Mary Ann do., wife, mar., 34, Devon Beerferris Mary Ann do., daur., 11, mine girl, Devon Beerferris George do., son, 9, mine boy, Devon Beerferris Elisha do., son, 7, mine boy, Devon Beerferris Elizabeth do., daur., 5, scholar, Devon Beerferris Susannah Agnes do., daur,, 3, scholar, Devon Beerferris Eiza do., daur., 1, Devon Beerferris Isaac DAWES, visitor, unm., 18, miner, Devon Plymouth George may have been actually born at Gwennap but he was baptised at Stithians 24th January 1813 s/o George and Susanna. So we know that part is right. I will see if I can work the line back a little and try to determine if the link back to MARTIN might be correct. CT The interesting thing here is that Elisha states he was born at Gwennap and I will pursue that in just a moment. Mary Ann's stated birthplace is Beerferris so if she was 'of Redruth' when she married she must have been residing there for sometime. |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 1, 2009 10:09:45 GMT -5
Children of George and Susanna MURTON all baptised at Stithians:-
Eliza bp. 9th September 1810
Elisha bp. 24th January 1813
Susanna bp. 12th September 1815
George bp. 3rd February 1819
Caroline bp. 21st August 1825
There is a 'suggestion' of more children here in which case the 1841 Census is of interest.
1841 Census - St Gluvias
Susanna MURTON, 55, ind.
Mary do., 20
Ann do., 18
Caroline do., 15
This appears to be the same family and it is probable that George was deceased.
George MURTON and Susanna SPARGO were married at Stithians 3rd October 1807
And it appears likely that Susanna's age at the 1841 Census might be accurate.
As the ages of adults were only required to be recorded down to the nearest five years then she would have been born between 1781 and 1786.
There is one Susanna baptised in 1788 at Stithians but it is most likely your Susanna was:-
Susanna d/o John and Grace SPARGO bp. 21st May 1786 Stithians
This does not help in identifying George MURTON but .... although there are others baptised within a reasonable time (different Parishes) he is probably:-
George s/o Geore and Elizabeth MURTEN bp. 11th June 1780 Stithians.
The following burial would seem to verify that:-
George MURTON age 45 of Tregilley, Gwennap, buried 21st August 1825 at Stithians.
Given that the family at St Gluvias in 1841 is the correct one then I am not sure where daughters Mary and Ann were born or baptised. It was certainly not Stithians and not Gwennap.
However there is a baptism at Stithians in 1822 for Mary daughter of JOHN and Susanna Murton. (30th June)
Looking at the Stithians PR this is the only baptism recorded for a John and Susanna Murton which suggests to me that there is an error in the PR.
I think that should actually be George.
Hopefully everything so far agrees with your own information so the next thing I will try is to work George back a little and see whre that leads.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 1, 2009 11:21:14 GMT -5
When Elizabeth MARTEN married George MURTON in 1777 she was 'of Wendron'. I do not have records for Wendron but based on IGI I can find no Elizabeth baptised there who could have been this person. There are, however, several baptised at Stithians around a time that would match the age recorded when Elizabeth was buried. So I would consider the links there to be at least reasonable without yet being proved. I notice you do not have any sort of date associated with George MURTON but I suspect he may have been the son of Peter and Alice. (I note that you say the line has been traced back but I would like to see if my reconstruction of part of it coincides. ) The line for George MURTON as I see at the moment is as follows:- John MORTON m. Elizabeth Oliver bp. 24th March 1673 Stithians (IGI) Oliver MORTON m. Mary COSWORTHA 26th September 1702 Stithians Peter s/o Oliver MORTON bp. 18th November 1719 Gwennap Peter MURTEN m. Alles RAWLING February 1745 at Stithians George bp. 14th July 1746 Stithians George MURTON m. Elizabeth MARTEN of Wendron 26th October 1777 at Stithians Peter bp. 11th January 1778 Stithians George bp. 11th June 1780 Stithians Jenefer bp. 21st January 1783 Stithians Oliver bp. 9th January 1786 Stithians Elizabeth bp. 23rd January 1789 Stithians Catharine bp. 3rd October 1791 Stithians Catharine bp. 15th July 1793 Stithians Alice bp. 9th June 1796 Stithians Mary bp. 11th July 1799 Stithians Peter bp. 25th November 1802 Stithians From around the 1670's and backwards the Marriage Register appears to have been very fragmented and/or difficult to read as Phillimore is full of gaps or unreadable entries. Anyway, without showing all children for the first few generations, how does this look? CT |
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Post by davidkingmartin on Apr 1, 2009 13:12:18 GMT -5
The wife of George Murton (snr), Elizabeth Martin 1755-1838, can be traced back to David Martin/Martayn/ "Davy" 1598-1666, wife Frances 1618-8 May 1667, Stithians, as shown by William M. in his book and to which JudyLynn and others allude. I am a direct descendant of David.
In on on-line document I have seen Frances referred to as "Frances Penhelluricke"....but that could be a place name!
David.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 1, 2009 17:04:05 GMT -5
Thanks David - will keep that in mind.
Regarding Frances - there were certainly Penhelluricks around the area back then.
Jane Penhallurick (var. spellings) married Christopher COCK who was seemingly a 'big wheel' around Helston, Wendron area and also had involvement with St Ives.
There is also a link between Christopher COCK and Christopher TREWHELLA by marriage.
Although I have never found the marriage and nor the name of Christopher COCK's daughter he names TREWHELLA grandchildren in his Will and the name of Christopher TREWHELLA appears as a witness as I recall.
And I just found a reference in the National Archives site about 'money matters' involving Christopher COCK, Christopher TREWHELLA and others.
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Post by judylynn on Apr 1, 2009 18:06:40 GMT -5
Holy cow! You've just replicated the results of my last couple years of research and the lookups I've begged of other people If I could get my mind out of your family gutter and back onto my own tree, I'd post actual details on what info I have and what else I need. But like a terrier with a bone, I need to figure that blasted PA Trewella branch before moving on to my own kin. (BTW, I don't have anything connecting my JOHNSes or OSBORNEs to Stithians; that's all on the MURTON side.) Thanks, sincerely, for your time and thoughts, CT. |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 2, 2009 0:47:03 GMT -5
I try to be of assistance. At least I know now that I have a correct scenario to work from and that should help make things a little easier at my end. As with most other queries I work on I will try to get all of that information into my database to use as a referral point and a basis for further research and, data being available, see if I might be able to find out a little more on the Johns and Osborn lines. And your help with my problems is very much appreciated. I have been waiting 30 years for some of this information so your 'appearance on the scene' has been most opportune! And you may end up with a little more work or a few more requests into the bargain!  Well - you did say where you were located and you did offer ..... Seriously though, as and when you can just let me know where your brickwalls are (doesn't have to be the UK) and I will do what I can to help break them down. Just as a little 'spanner' for you - there is one of those PA marriages that actually does not belong to the family of Matthew and Eliza Jane!  It is the marriage of Frank TREWELLA and Lizzie SUTTON. He was born in Connecticut and son of William and Jane (Eustice) TREWHELLA but I don't know why he ended up being married in PA. The PA-born son of Matthew and Eliza Jane is another problem that I think I have mentioned in another note. Best I try and get some work done now and see if I can clear up a little more of the tangle. CT |
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Post by judylynn on Apr 2, 2009 17:33:05 GMT -5
A few notes/corrections before I continue this outside the Surname Interests section -- see my new Queries post! 26th January1832 Calstock by Banns William JOHNS of the parish Elizabeth OSBORN, sojourner Witnesses:- Thos. Osburn, Stephen Johns For any future readers out there, that's a typo -- 1822. That's Elisha who was baptized 1813, not George. You've got my lineage spot on, as far as I know! Only question here is that my sources name this bride as Mary TREWARTHA -- apparently the daughter of William & Mary (POLZEW). I'd like to know if you yourself interpreted the actual handwriting differently? Or were you viewing someone else's transcribed records? Now ... CT, please feel free to discontinue any direct MURTON research. My cousin in Cornwall has been working very seriously on this line for years -- rooting around in dank, dusty archives and everything -- and plans to publish a book. So I'm expending my efforts on the collateral lines and other surnames, rather than duplicating her work. May I respectfully ask that if you're kind enough to wish to donate time to my cause, please help find my other folks, instead? Thanks! ~JL |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 2, 2009 22:40:52 GMT -5
All corrections duly noted and I apologise for the errors. Probably just trying to get things done too fast and lost myself.  However I have checked and the marriage date was certainly 1822 and it was definitely Elisha baptised in 1813. As for the marriage of Oliver MORTON and Mary in 1702 - that is not actually an error on my part. IGI records the bride merely as 'Mary'. But it is Phillimore that records her as Mary COSWARTHA and that was my source. I have not actually seen the original PR so am not able to say one way or other but I seem to recall a similar problem with another family some years ago. Further assistance - quite happy to 'branch off' but I needed to know just where you were at and to get an idea of the family. So give me some more specific directions and I will pursue it from there as best I can. CT |
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