John Quick and Betsey

[Deleted]

CT

Now there's a thing. In the 1841 census John and Betsey Quick are living at the Wharf at St Ives. With them there are two Quick boys, Charles and Thomas. I think I originally assumed that they would be sons but I think that I am wrong and the more I write the more I think we have been here before.

Firstly, I think that Charles is Charles Wedge and is the son of George Quick and Mary Gregory, and was to marry Elizabeth Nicholas later in 1841. In 1851 and 1861 he appears with Elizabeth.

Secondly, I think that Thomas is Thomas Wedge and is also the son of George Quick and Mary Gregory, and was to marry Jane Stevens in 1844. In 1851 and 1861 he appears with Jane.

So therefore I wondered who John and Betsey (Elizabeth) were. I now think that John is an uncle of the two boys. John Jenkyn Quick bap 1783. In the 1851 census John and Betsey are living at the Wharf still and I made a note that said they were being visted by grandchildren - Polmear and Edwards.

So my final assumption is that John Jenkyn Quick married Elizabeth Polmear at St Ives in 1826, likely had no children, but when John's brother George died in 1840, he took two of his boys Charles and Thomas to live with him.

Appreciate any comments

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

We have most certainly discussed this one before.

One thing is certain - the identity of 'Betsy' can be proved via the links provided in the 1851 Census.

Betsy had a daughter, Mary Ann, from her marriage to Henry POLMEAR. The two EDWARDS boys belonged to her.

Grandaughter Clara POLMEAR was a product of son Henry.

And then there is 'niece Mary A WOOLCOCK' who was a daughter of Elizabeth's sister Padgey via her marriage to Anthony WOOLCOCK.

And then we come to the 'sticking point'!

I have never been comfortable with John having been 'John Jenkyn QUICK' and was looking to explore all avenues before possibly conceding that he may have been.

Main reason was that the 'Jenkyn' disappeared from his name.

All others of that name (i.e. John Jenkyn Quick) were recorded at Marriage and Burial as such so it seemed very odd that there might be a 'departure from form' as it were.

And there has also been the problem of the 1844 Death of John Jenkin QUICK.

I would really like more details regarding that Death/Burial before ocming to any firm decision.

There is only one other possibility for this Death and that would be the son (second of that name) of William and Elizabeth (nee CURNOW) QUICK who was baptised at St Ives in 1819.

If the burial turns out to be him then the case certainly gathers strength.

And, as you say, the 1841 Census is very suggestive and I agree that Charles and Thomas are almost certainly the sons of George QUICK.

I am beginning to think that you are right with this one but I think the 1844 information is required to 'nail the lid down'.

CT

[Deleted]

CT

And there has also been the problem of the 1844 Death of John Jenkin QUICK.

I would really like more details regarding that Death/Burial before ocming to any firm decision.

I have some work in progress to view the details of this death and I will let you know the results when they are at hand.

I have never been comfortable with John having been 'John Jenkyn QUICK' and was looking to explore all avenues before possibly conceding that he may have been.

Main reason was that the 'Jenkyn' disappeared from his name.

Interesting that if the two boys are who I think they are, then they also are not using their middle names (Wedge) at census time.

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

That 1844 Death information, when it arrives, should just about clinch it now.

As for the names in the Census - not really that odd that they did not use their middle names.
I have seen many where an initial might be 'sometimes' included but often times those with middle names were merely recorded as John or Fred or whatever the first name was.

It is with marriage and death records that I have the problem with the likes of John Jenkyn QUICK.

Those are certainly records where a complete name would usually be found.

CT

[Deleted]

CT

The death in 1844 for John Jenkyn Quick is as follows:

Died:- 26th September 1844 at St Ives
Name:- John Jenkyn Quick
Sex:- Male
Age:- 5 months
Occupation:- son of George Quick, mariner
Cause of death:- Hooping cough
Informant:- Alice Polmear

I thought that the Polmear name was inetresting given Betsey's history.

Also, it might be fair to suggest that the father George was buried 3 or so days earlier?

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

Lannanta - I think I must agree with you as to the identity of this John Jenkin QUICK.

And I have just found his Birth in FreeBMD - 1844 June Qtr Vol 9 Page 193

But here is now raised an interesting question!

Consider this from the West Briton:-

4 October 1844, Friday

At St. Ives, on Saturday last, Mr. George QUICK, aged 28 years, and on the day previously, George, his son, aged 3 years; also, on Monday, William, son of John QUICK, aged 2 years.


George QUICK died 29th September 1844 age 28

George QUICK (son of above) died 28th September 1844 age 3

And now we have:-

John Jenkin QUICK son of George died 26th September 1844 age 5 months

Does it not seem strange that John Jenkin QUICK was omitted from the West Briton Obits. given that he died only two days before his elder brother and just three days before his father?!

Most Curious!

And now for our next problem.

The information regarding the 1844 Death of John Jenkin QUICK was going to help solve the problem involving the John QUICK who married Elizabeth POLMEAR.

Instead it has left us still with two men baptised as 'John Jenkyn QUICK' for whom we are yet to satisfactorily find a death record.

My thoughts had been that this 1844 event must be either the son of Richard and Honour (nee JENKYN) QUICK who had been baptised in 1783 OR the son of William and Elizabeth (nee CURNOW) QUICK who had been baptised in 1819.

This would surely have solved the problem.

But, as just stated, we have taken care of a third person of that name and are still left with the original problem!

Returning to the details of the Death Certificate:-

Present at the death was Alice POLMEAR so just who was she?

Your comment indicates your thoughts as to the possibility of a relationship to Betsy (widow of Henry POLMEAR) who married John QUICK.

I am not sure there was any connection but I am certainly not denying the possibility.

What is interesting is that the name of 'Alice' in the Polmear family seems quite rare.

I have found an Alice POLMEAR in the 1841 Census and, on the face of it, she would appear to be the one present at the above death.

However - when checking baptisms for the children listed with her in 1841 I have found that the mother was actually AGNES!

John POLMEAR m. Agnes GRENFELL 9th April 1821 at St Ives

Even more peculiar (if that can be possible) is what I have found next!

In 1841 Alice is recorded as age 45 and so was born sometime between 1792 and 1796 in all probability.

Alice d/o John and Mary GRENFELL bp. 1st June 1796 St Ives
Agnes Jane d/o John and Margaret GRENFELL bp. 29th April 1796 St Ives

In the Census she is 'Alice' yet she married and baptised her children as 'Agnes'.

In 1851 she is still 'Alice' and her seafaring husband is back at home.

But this may be purely academic at the moment.

Betsy's deceased husband, Henry POLMEAR, does not appear to have had a brother named John so it is quite possible that Alice POLMEAR being present at the death of young John Jenkin QUICK may have been purely coincidence.

Oh Dear! I have just found another error in my database regarding this lot.

I am not sure whether we discussed and came to an agreement about the two John Jenkin QUICKs born about 1820.

However, my database shows that the son of George QUICK and Mary (nee GREGORY) was the one who married Martha STEVENS at St Ives 1st September 1844.

This left the son of William QUICK and Elizabeth (nee CURNOW) who had been baptised 17th April 1819 as the other of this name for whom no further information had been found.

Well - looking at the children of John Jenkin QUICK and Martha (nee STEVENS) and I have to say that at least I got it wrong!

With a daughter named Elizabeth Curnow QUICK he must surely have been the son of William and Elizabeth.

Tios means it is the son of George and Mary that is 'lost'!

I think I will make the necessary adjustments to my database and then look ver the problem again.

CT

[Deleted]

CT

Oh Dear! I have just found another error in my database regarding this lot.

I am not sure whether we discussed and came to an agreement about the two John Jenkin QUICKs born about 1820.

However, my database shows that the son of George QUICK and Mary (nee GREGORY) was the one who married Martha STEVENS at St Ives 1st September 1844.

This left the son of William QUICK and Elizabeth (nee CURNOW) who had been baptised 17th April 1819 as the other of this name for whom no further information had been found.

Well - looking at the children of John Jenkin QUICK and Martha (nee STEVENS) and I have to say that at least I got it wrong!

With a daughter named Elizabeth Curnow QUICK he must surely have been the son of William and Elizabeth.

Tios means it is the son of George and Mary that is 'lost'!

I think I will make the necessary adjustments to my database and then look ver the problem again.

CT

Surely not. The John Jenkyn who married Martha Stevens was the son of George, fisherman.

1 Sep 1844 by Banns
John Jenkyn Quick 25 bachelor Fisherman of St. Ives (Father: George Quick, Fisherman)
Martha Stevens 24 spinster of St. Ives (Father: Matthew Stevens, Fisherman)
Witnesses: Thomas Williams, Matthew Stevens

When I was putting my census data in the other day I came to exactly the same conclusion as you did. I was confused by earlier children in the family of John and Martha e.g. David Gyles, but Elizabeth Curnow had me about to rewrite my family line. Then I looked at the marriage entries, and I remember saying to myself, how many other times will there be confusion created when you decide on families using a naming pattern as evidence.

The only other explanation is another John and Martha marriage??

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

Bugger!!

I should have looked a little more closely and realised that I had worked all that out from the St Ives marriages etc.

The year of marriage should have told me to at least double-check the PRs.

Now I have to go and change it all back over again!

But revisiting the scenario causes a pause to ponder.

Firstly - John J gives his age as 25 when he marries Martha STEVENS in 1844 so it should be expected he was born about 1818 or 1819.
But the sun of George was baptised in May of 1820.
He was a 'twin' to Charles Wedge and I would expect twins to baptised sooner rather than later so, although possible they were born in 1819, I think it more likely they were actually born in 1820.

And then take a look at the children of John J and Martha and it becomes even more strange.

Apart from son David Gyles (I attempted to find a link for this name last night) we have:-

John Jenkin 1844
Martha Jane 1850
WILLIAM 1852
ELIZABETH CURNOW 1855
Matthew Stevens 1859
Martha Stevens 1859
Alice Stevens 1861

This simply screams out that John was the son of William and Elizabeth!

There is no George!
There is no Mary!

So no child named after parents!

And also no Richard, Charles or Thomas - In fact no name at all from the family of George and Mary!!!

If the PR information is accurate then this is not a 'mere deviation' from any sort of naming pattern.

If John and Martha had decided to 'go their own way' with the naming of their children then WHY did they still name children after Martha's parents.

And WHY should they just coincidentally, accidently and "oh dear I missed that association" all of a sudden give two children names that 'just happen' to be identical to those of the parents of John's cousin John Jenkyn QUICK son of William and Elixabeth??

Take notice also of the order in which the children were named:-

John Jenkyn - after himself
David Gyles -
Martha - after mother
WILLIAM -
ELIZABETH CURNOW -
Matthew Stevens - after wife's father
Alice Stevens - after wife's sister? (mother was Jane)

All that tells me that John J 'should' be the son of William and Elizabeth.

I wonder now whether there might be 'just a little error' in the PR or the transcription of that PR.

I think I will leave my database 'as is' until I have looked at this just a little more.

[Deleted]

Yeh but CT

There is no George!
There is no Mary!

There is no George in the 1851 census, but there was one born in 1844 in Penzance district, and there was one who died. Also there was one born in 1846 and one died in 1847. Who were they (given we know the 1844 one was probably 28 year old George) - perhaps one was the son of John J. & Martha. After all the John Jenkin who died of hooping cough was unknown to us a few days ago??

As I said before I certainly did exactly the same thing as you. But given the fact that George and Mary died quite early maybe William and Elizabeth had a big part to play in his life.

Anyway, where was John J. in the 1841 census?

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

There is no George in the 1851 census, but there was one born in 1844 in Penzance district, and there was one who died. Also there was one born in 1846 and one died in 1847. Who were they (given we know the 1844 one was probably 28 year old George) - perhaps one was the son of John J. & Martha. After all the John Jenkin who died of hooping cough was unknown to us a few days ago??

George Quick born St Ives 30th May 1844 and baptised 14th June 1844 (St Ives Primitive Methodist Circuit) was the son of Thomas QUICK and Susan (nee BOASE).

That takes care of that one! ;D

The 1846 Birth is most likely the son of William QUICK and Alice (nee STEVENS)

This William was the son of William and Elizabeth (nee CURNOW) QUICK and was age 4 at the time of the 1851 Census.

But young George did not die in 1847 - he married Johanna Williams JAMES at St Ives 4th March 1866.

But given the fact that George and Mary died quite early maybe William and Elizabeth had a big part to play in his life.

Not quite so, my friend.

George Quick of St Ives buried 31st December 1840 at St Ives age 65

That is quoted for the St Ives Parish Register. (I reckon that will be one of the odd pages I photocopied when I was at the CRO.)

And also - William would not have played too much of a part either because he was buried at St Ives 24th May 1829.

Think I had best finish up for the night.

A couple of extremely bad days coming up so I had best get some tucker into me and head off to bed.

CT

Another sneak look before bed.

John Jenkin QUICK (husband of Martha) died in the June Quarter of 1883 at the age of 64.

If accurate that puts his birth no later than early 1819 - and that also matches more with the son of William and Elizabeth.

I will keep saying it until proven wrong - there is something not quite right and I really think it is to do with the details in the Marriage Record.

In the 1861 Census he is 42 - birth 1818/19.
In 1871 he is 51.
In 1881 he is 62.

[Deleted]

CT

I cannot accept that John, the husband of Martha Stevens, was the son of George - I agree with you in that it screams out that he was the son of William and Elizabeth.

I have a contact that I can ask if they will review the parish register and let you know the result.

Lannanta

PS I have still not seen either John in the 1841 census.

[Deleted]

CT

George Quick born St Ives 30th May 1844 and baptised 14th June 1844 (St Ives Primitive Methodist Circuit) was the son of Thomas QUICK and Susan (nee BOASE).

So which Thomas is this? I do not see him in the census at first glance.

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

This Thomas was baptised at St Ives 9th February 1821 s/o Thomas and Elizabeth (nee BENNETTS) QUICK.

He married Susan BOASE at Falmouth 1st May 1844 (West Briton).

Will put more effort into all of this as soon as I can but it appears things may not settle down properly for a good while yet.

CT