|
Post by Cornish Terrier on May 8, 2010 18:45:04 GMT -5
Lannanta - useful yes .. but how useful. As you say the Hardwicke Act was dated 1754 but the marriage in question did not occur until 1789 - 35 years later. Now we all know what happens to 'Acts' as the years go by!! Original meanings and intent gradually disappear or at least become watered down almost to the point where they may as well disappear. I would be inclined to think that the original intent was largely forgotten by the time 1789 came around. The changing times and circumstances would have been an influence and it would be unlikely that uniformity across the Parishes would have been maintained in any case. Not much help I am afraid. CT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2010 21:32:14 GMT -5
CT
I have carried on with this thread because I believe, or think, that there have been some incorrect connections and they do relate to our discussion re Richard etc.
This was the first question from Sue and it illicted a comment from Cornishmaid -
There were other comments also re the existence of Robert (b 1720), however the existence of Robert, son of John and Dorothy, is shown in the will of Robert's brother John (proved 1771) where he writes -
So getting back to Robert and Susannah, who incidentally I also have as the son of Robert and Margery, on reflection I now do think that this younger Robert was the son of John Glasson and Dorothy Verrant - (incidentally Dorothy was the daughter of Richard Verrant).
To go a step futher you need to read the will of Charles Glasson of Camborne (youngest son of John and Dorothy) that is on Kathie's site, proved in 1799. In it he refers to two adopted children where he gives guardianship of those two to his brother in law Thomas Uren (Charles's wife was Elizabeth Uren) and nephew Richard Glasson.
As far as I can see it, the only way that Charles could have a nephew Richard was if his older brother Robert was the husband of Susannah Mitchell - their son Richard having been born around 1754.
When you then compare the naming of the children of Robert and Susannah (where Robert is assumed to be the son of John and Dorothy as opposed to being the son of Robert and Margery) it seems to make a lot more sense.
OK so how does this relate to the previous discussion on Richard Glasson and the shortage thereof. Well it is a rough argument but here goes. The will of Charles mentioned above contains the following section:
Richard Symons, base son of Annie Symons, was baptised in 1783 in Camborne - so I leave the rest up for discussion.
Lannanta
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 10, 2010 4:30:47 GMT -5
My very last comment in the Thread of Richard and Philippa of Famouth was "He could, of course, have been illegitimate!" That seemed the only logical answer although there was still the possibility of a baptism lurking in fine print between the lines somewhere. But I do believe you have found the answer now and illegitimacy is it. So - after a quick read of this I would be guessing that Charles Glasson's nephew Richard was the father of Richard Symons. BTW - the existence of Robert s/o John and Dorothy is further proved by the Will of John Glasson himself written 14th January 1753 and Proved 18th May 1753. (Also on Kathie's site.) CT
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 10, 2010 10:02:29 GMT -5
Seems to me the name Robert Glasson is getting to be more of a problem! You probably already know this .............. but! I now have another Robert Glasson for whom I cannot find a baptism at the moment. In the Will of John Glasson proved 1771 he mentions 'son Robert Glasson' and 'his (Robert's) son Edward'. Edward son of Robert and Jane Glasson was baptised at Gwinear in September 1763 just a month before John Glasson wrote his Will. This John was the son of John and Dorothy and, therefore, brother to the Robert who seems to have started much of this discussion! Checking marriages and the father of Edward must be:- Robert GLASON married Jane HAMPTON 11th Sepbember 1762 at Gwinear And I now suspect this is the Robert and Jane Glasson who begin baptising children at Crowan in 1767. (They also named a daughter Dorothy.) CT BTW - I have only had a brief glance so far but it appears that Robert Glasson was also mentioned in the Will of his brother William.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 10, 2010 11:10:51 GMT -5
A brief note on the subject of the Will of John Glasson. Will written 24th October 1763 Will proved 20th October 1771 As mentioned in my last John named a son Robert for whom I cannot find a baptism. He also named Edward Glasson son of Robert who would be the Edward baptised at Gwinear 25th September 1763. Robert Glasson married Jane Hampton at Gwinear 11th September 1762 and I suspect she was a daughter of Edward Hampton after whom her son was probably named. But there are four further interesting bequests in the Will of John Glasson. Each of the following received 5 shillings:- "son-in-law" Richard Waters "daughter-in-law" Elizabeth Waters "daughter-in-law" Ann Waters "daughter-in-law" Alice Waters This tells me that John was married twice and that these are children from his wife's first marriage. What confirms to me that John was married twice is the following bequest:- "daughter Dorothy .......... use of the room with her mother-in-law" This is followed by:- "brother Robert Glasson 50 pounds in trust for my daughter Dorothy at her marriage" John named his wife as Anne and this part can get a little confusing! It appears John was first married to Ann Perkin at Camborne in 1735 and as I have not yet found a burial for her I think that she may have died at Gwinear. Now, there is a marriage at Crowan 23rd June 1751 between John GLAZEN and Ann WALTERS and I suspect this is the second wife named in the above Will. The following is a possible scenario which would mean that Ann was a good deal older than John. Richard WATERS marred Anne (not named) 13th November 1725 at Crowan Anne d/o Richard Waters bp. 28th August 1726 Crowan Elizabeth d/o Richard Walters bp. 1730 Crowan Alce d/o Richard Waters bp. 4th February 1732 Crowan Richard s/o Richard and Ann Walters bp. 19th May 1741 Crowan In fact this seems the only scenario that matches the Will and these are the only children of the Waters/Walters family who were baptised as children of Richard. Also note the name variation from Waters to Walters which has been discussed before. You will find that Waters, Walters and also Watters are often interchanged within the one family with sometimes all three being used at one time or other for the one person! There is a burial at Crowan for Richard Walters 2nd October 1743. CT
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 10, 2010 12:36:59 GMT -5
And now a brief note about Richard Glasson - base son of Anne Symons. In his Will of 1791 Charles Glasson left a bequest to his 'adopted grandson Richard Glasson son of Anne Symons'. We know who Richard's mother was but the question is - who was his father. I think it is clear now that this is the Richard who married Margaret Rowe at Camborne in 1804. And I now think that his children hold the answer to the name of his father. And I believe that his father is JOHN! It appears that Charles Glasson had only three children - Charles, John and Elizabeth. Elizabeth was buried at Camborne in 1779 leaving only the two sons. Son Charles was named residual legatee and executor in his father's Will but there is another interesting extract from that Will:- "grandsons John and Charles sons of the said John Glasson (his son) my premises if my executor should die without issue" This then rules Charles out as the possible father of Richard and, of course, leaves John as the probable culprit! Charles named Richard Glasson as his 'adopted grandson'. With his wife still living I should think young Richard would have been named as 'adopted son' UNLESS he acctually was a grandson. I think this is acknowledgement of the fact that Richard was really a grandson and this clearly implicates son John as the father! The only thing that would let John off the hook would be if there was another son of Charles and Elizabeth who died prior to the Will being made .................. and I can find no evidence of such a son! John Glasson - Stand up and be counted! And this might also help account for the fact that Richard named his second son John and also used the name Elizabeth twice. And why did Anne Symons name her son Richard is probably another question? In my considered (and humble) opinion Anne Symons is one of the following with the most likely being the second:- Ann d/o Richard and Mary Symons bp. 11th October 1748 Crowan Anne d/o Richard and Margaret Simons bp. 27th November 1763 Crowan This now leaves just one loose end from the Will of Charles Glasson. Anna Maria James d/o Catherine James was to receive 'maintenance until 21 and .... silver sleeve buttons'. Why does she get a mention? Anna Maria d/o Catherine James was baptised 10th June 1790 at Camborne with no mention of the putative father. Charles Glasson was already mentioned as being childless in 1791 and John was married in 1788 so I am going to need some help explaining this bequest. CT
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 10, 2010 14:06:19 GMT -5
Seems William Glasson must have received a bit of a wake up call! His wife was buried at Camborne 27th March 1763. William wrote his Will 28th March 1763! William Glasson was buried at Camborne 4th April 1763. ;D This will be William Glasson m. Jone Verrant 16th May 1734 Camborne. It looks like Jone was probably baptised at Camborne in 1709 d/o Francis Verrant who appears to have married Margery in 1699. So I immediately have a question from the Will - why name first child Grace?? I want to keep this note brief so the main points of interest follow. As part of his inheritance son William was to receive 'half the land belonging to Sir John St Aubin for 2 lives'. Robert and Charles Glasson, brothers of the Testator, were the two lives on the above estate. The children named in the Will were:- William (bp. 6th May 1739 Camborne) John (bp. 22nd August 1742 Camborne) MARY - cannot find a baptism for her. Dorothy - (bp. 28th April 1745 Camborne) Grace - (bp. 5th March 1734 Camborne) Also mentioned were four grandchildre - William, James, George and John Michell. Daughter Grace received only one shilling and this will be because she was already married. James Mitchel married Grace Glasson of Camborne 1st April 1755 at Gwinear. Robert Glasson was named executor of his brother's Will. So, baptism or no baptism, we now have Robert's existence verified by four Wills! Robert is mentioned in the Will of his father in 1753, brother William in 1763, brother John in 1763 and (by inference) brother Charles in 1791. CT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2010 17:59:25 GMT -5
CT
I agree with almost all of that which you have written and I think that you have done particularly well there.
I guess that the real father of Richard Symons will have to stay as conjecture but I do agree that if it was one of the Glassons boys then John is the most likely one.
The issue of piecing the Glasson families together is still plagued by missing data however compared to when I first started it is a lot easier now.
I would be interested in your view as to whether or not you agree that Robert Glasson, husband of Susannah Mitchell, is the son of John Glasson and Dorothy Verrant. As Sue rightly pointed out some time ago, it does fly in the face of accepted connections, however it is not the first time that somebody has got it wrong, published it, and everybody has taken it as gospel.
Getting the two Richard into their correct families has been a real plus - Richard and Margaret at Camborne and Richard and Philippa at Crowan/Breock/Falmouth.
Lannanta
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 10, 2010 19:44:05 GMT -5
Lannanta - I read back through most of the notes concerning this subject last night and the end result was that I had left Robert Glasson (husband of Susannah) without parents. This was obviously because I was particularly not convinced about the arguments supporting Robert and Margery as his parents but also because I did not have a baptism to support the alternative. The fact that a Robert is named in the Wills of John Glasson (father) and brothers John and William tells us there certainly was a son named Robert to John and Dorothy. And that in turn lends great support to this being the husband of Susannah. But I reckon the real clincher is something I have just read again but only just really taken in properly! I draw your attention to the administration of the estate of one Robert Glasson of Gwinear in 1739! 14th February 1739 - Administration granted to MARGERY GLASSON, widow and relict. 14th May 1742 - Administration granted to JOHN GLASSON guardian of ROBERT GLASSON .......................... unadministered by his widow MARGERY GLASSON. Inventory and bond to JOHN GLASSON during the minority of ROBERT GLASSON, the son ..................... One of the bondsmen signing was JOHN GLASSON, yeoman of Gwinear. Renouncing administration were two daughters of Robert Glasson (decd.) - Margery PAUL and Mary JENNINGS. My opinion is that the above Administrations combined with the Wills already discussed provide reasonable evidence supporting the fact that the husband of Susannah was indeed the son of John and Dorothy. We must also remember that Robert and Susannah named a daughter Dorothy. One further item that might ultimately prove the point may need some research into the St Aubyn family and their landholdings. In his Will of 1763 William Glasson named his two brothers, Robert and Charles, as lives on land belonging to Sir John St Aubin. In his own Will of 1788 Robert leaves his wife Susannah 12 pounds yearly from his leasehold estate called Trethanas. You could say that I am already convinced that Robert belongs to John and Dorothy .................................. because I have already added him to their family! ;D And since when did you believe that I sided with the masses! Would not be the first time I have successfully argued my case against the 'rampaging hordes'! CT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2010 21:03:58 GMT -5
CT
Well said that man. I would now like to continue my discussion concerning Richard and Philippa so I will do that on the original thread.
Lannanta
|
|
|
Post by cornishglassons on Jul 14, 2010 14:14:37 GMT -5
So getting back to Robert and Susannah, who incidentally I also have as the son of Robert and Margery, on reflection I now do think that this younger Robert was the son of John Glasson and Dorothy Verrant - (incidentally Dorothy was the daughter of Richard Verrant). When you then compare the naming of the children of Robert and Susannah (where Robert is assumed to be the son of John and Dorothy as opposed to being the son of Robert and Margery) it seems to make a lot more sense. Lannanta Hi - goodness it was two years ago that I started this thread! I then believed that Robert Glasson was the son of John Glasson and Dorothy Verrant for the exact reason you state - the naming of Robert and Susannah's children made more sense even although, as I said at the time, other more experienced researchers disagreed. Although there have been indicators and theories, and many helpful ideas and advice along the way, I could never quite believe that Robert was the son of Robert and Marjery. I think it was Hercule Poirot who once said if only one thing doesn't fit the evidence then your theory was probably incorrect, and Robert and Susannah naming their eldest daughter Dorothy was the 'one thing' for me. As you state, Lannanta the wills are also telling. Can I ask one thing though (and forgive me if you have already answered this question elsewhere on this thread) have you eight children from the marriage of Robert and Susannah - with 'my' William born 1755 as the youngest son? Best wishes, Carole
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 14, 2010 15:09:45 GMT -5
Hi Carole and nice to hear from you again. It has been a long time but recent queries brought this one back to life and nudged us in the direction of the correct solution. And, happily, that solution matched your earlier conclusions which I was certainly leaning towards. In answer to your question to Lannanta - I have only seven children for Robert and Susannah:- Dorothy 1747 Mary 1748 Robert 1749 Ann 1750 John 1752 Richard 1754 William 1755 Who is the eighth child that you have so that I can chase up some details? Glad to have another Poirot fan on board also! CT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2010 15:39:45 GMT -5
Hi Carole
The interesting thing about "more experienced researchers" is that sometimes the majority have copied what one individual has decided is correct based on the evidence at hand - and I have to admit that in my early researching days that is the mistake that I made. It is, in my humble opinion, one of the down sides of public family trees. They can be helpful but it is awfully difficult to change a mistake down the track.
To rectify that error I have spent some time and money trying to gather as much Glasson (and Quick) data as I can and put it into spreadsheets so that I can sort the data into any form I like e.g. burials, births, families based on parents etc. It is very enlightning what you can see when large amounts of data appear in that way. There is still a few places where the data is not available but there is certainly more than enough to go on with. With that data I have started again from scratch adding sources to my database and confirming each connection or assumption.
I have eight children for Robert and Susannah: Dorothy - 1747 Mary - 1748 Robert - 1749 Ann - 1750 John - 1752 Richard - 1754 William - 1755 Elizabeth - 1757
Lannanta
|
|
|
Post by cornishglassons on Jul 14, 2010 18:53:34 GMT -5
Hi Carole and nice to hear from you again. It has been a long time but recent queries brought this one back to life and nudged us in the direction of the correct solution. And, happily, that solution matched your earlier conclusions which I was certainly leaning towards. In answer to your question to Lannanta - I have only seven children for Robert and Susannah:- Dorothy 1747 Mary 1748 Robert 1749 Ann 1750 John 1752 Richard 1754 William 1755 Who is the eighth child that you have so that I can chase up some details? Glad to have another Poirot fan on board also! CT Thanks, CT. I have been working on other lines of my family tree but periodically check here. The recent posts here have me casting other lines aside to work on the Glassons some more! I have the seven children born to Robert and Susannah that you mention, but also their youngest sister Elizabeth born in Crowan in 1757. I believe Elizabeth was baptised on 12 June 1757. I first came across her after a mention in her father Robert's will in which she was left one guinea. I hope (but am happy to be corrected) she married Reginald Thomas from Madron on 7 February 1778. I have five children of their marriage: Robert in 1779, Eliza in 1781, Reginald in 1783, William in 1787 and Fras (?) in 1789. My 'little grey cells' have, however, not been able to discover where Susannah Mitchel was born - I'd be interested to know if you have that info. Best wishes and thanks for the re-welcome (LOL) Carole
|
|
|
Post by cornishglassons on Jul 14, 2010 19:00:59 GMT -5
To rectify that error I have spent some time and money trying to gather as much Glasson (and Quick) data as I can and put it into spreadsheets so that I can sort the data into any form I like e.g. burials, births, families based on parents etc. It is very enlightning what you can see when large amounts of data appear in that way. There is still a few places where the data is not available but there is certainly more than enough to go on with. With that data I have started again from scratch adding sources to my database and confirming each connection or assumption. I have eight children for Robert and Susannah: Dorothy - 1747 Mary - 1748 Robert - 1749 Ann - 1750 John - 1752 Richard - 1754 William - 1755 Elizabeth - 1757 Lannanta Hi Lannanta, That's so interesting. Have you an idea of how many Glassons you have in your database? Yes, I agree with the eight children you list. Perhaps you could correct me if I am wrong about Elizabeth marrying Reginald Thomas. I realised tonight that I had (horror of horrors) no sources listed for it and have therefore no clue where the info came from. I have thankfully learnt from my mistakes in that regard!! Best wishes, Carole
|
|