getafish460
Ysel
British by birth, Icelandic by adoption, Cornish by the grace of God!!
Posts: 106
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Post by getafish460 on Apr 28, 2011 4:58:50 GMT -5
i've assembled records and done some delving and so far achieved finding one, Philip SPARNON (bpt 1655- died 19Aug 1707), he married a lady by the name of Elizabeth, (on 23 Nov 1682 in Illogan) but i have no records about her, and she's a complete mystery, with the exception that she died "Vita Matris" (before her mother). If anyone can shed any light, they'd be doing alot better than me! ALSO ;D There are Muster Rolls mentioning the Sparnon family (from Breage, which is where the family seem to have originated from, before migrating to the Illogan/Camborne area) from the late C15, including the Tinners' Muster from 1453, so the family obviously had land and money, which usually translates into there being records, but I can't seem to find any records following on from these muster rolls . As a consequence, I'm unable to make the connection (assuming that it exists, which I'm pretty sure it does, from my other research with the Sparnon family forum.) again, any help gratefully received ;D Regards to all Ted Carpenter
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 28, 2011 7:15:40 GMT -5
Ted - not able to help much with the earlier part of your query but I do have a query/comment of my own about the first bit.
What is your source for this marriage?
I have checked the CFHS Marriage Index for Illogan and that entry does is not present.
But they do have this one:-
Phillipp SPARNAN Vitamatris? - 2 Oct 1669
Vitamatris? - is in the Bride Column and the date is obviously 13 years earlier than the one you have mentioned.
CT
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getafish460
Ysel
British by birth, Icelandic by adoption, Cornish by the grace of God!!
Posts: 106
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Post by getafish460 on May 1, 2011 21:36:06 GMT -5
Hi CT. Have to confess that the records quoted were passed to me from the Sparnon family forum, but the dates were "confirmed"(?) by further research across looking for the father of another phillip Sparnon who married Jane Trerross in 1710, but I've got both Phillip's recorded as SPARNON and not SPARNAN. Whether all the different sources I've used are using the same flawed(?) data source, I'll have to delve into. Give me a while to get on to the Sparnon site again and triple check, and try and locate the elusive Elizabeth(?) regards and thanks as always, Ted
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 2, 2011 5:03:59 GMT -5
No worries Ted. And don't worry too much about the spelling of the surname as the variation is often just in the interpretation of the handwring. Let me know what you find. CT
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getafish460
Ysel
British by birth, Icelandic by adoption, Cornish by the grace of God!!
Posts: 106
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Post by getafish460 on May 9, 2011 21:17:13 GMT -5
Hi CT I've had a bit of a dig, and thus far I've got (towards the end branches of the tree) Richard Sparnon (1715-1793) son of Phillip Sparnon (1685-1759 who married Jane Trerros) son of Phillip Sparnon (1655-1707, who married the elusive Elizabeth in 1682, she who died "Vita Matris"). I've checked in Phillimore's, and can't find the date that you refer to. But if it's the same Phillip, then he'd only have been 14 when he got married, which must have been a bit of a shock to his parents! ("what did you do at school today, son?") whoever they were (yet to move on to them) i'm confused, this needs closer scrutiny, methinks! Thanks and regards Ted
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 10, 2011 5:04:14 GMT -5
Ted - where did you get the information that suggests that 'vitamatris' relates to Elizabeth? As I said in an earlier post - the 1682 marriage is not in the CFHS Index however I have now seen it recorded in IGI. There are a lot of 'Member Submitted Entries' for these early Philip Sparnons in IGI so I would be inclined to suggest you treat it as a bit of 'leg-pulling' for the time being. The CFHS Index clearly shows the 1669 marriage for Philip Sparnan and 'vitamatris ?' so I would suggest you might have been on a bit of a wild goose chase. There is also a marriage in 1691 at Illogan for Philip Sparnon to Mary - that raises further questions. Did Elizabeth die and your Philip then marry Mary? OR - is this a different Philip altogether? Hmmmmmmm!!! - Does your leg play Jingle Bells by any chance? On looking a little more through the IGI entries for Philip I think there is definitely some 'leg-pulling' going on! First problem here is that I can (so far) find no evidence of a recorded baptism for Philip Sparnon in or around 1655. What I can find are a few LDS Member Submitted Entries that are based purely on whatever twisted logic they used at the time! From IGI:- Philip Sparnon Birth: 1650 Illogan Burial: 19th August 1707 Illogan Spouse: Thomasin Marriage: 28th July 1669 Illogan Philip Sparnon Birth: 1650 Illogan Burial: 19th August 1707 Illogan Spouse: Maray Marriage: 26th December 1691 Illogan Philip Sparnon Death: 19th August 1707 Illogan Spouse: Maray Marriage: 26th December 1691 Illogan Philip Sparnon Birth: 1648 Illogan Burial: 19th August 1707 Illogan Father: Willus Sparnon Mother: Jane Goode Philip Sparnon Death: 19th August 1707 Illogan Marriage: 23rd November 1682 Tucking Mill, Illogan Phillipp Sprnon or Sparnon Spouse: Elizabeth Marriage: 23rd November 1682 Illogan NOTE - not one of these indicates a birth around 1655. From the CFHS Marriage Index for Illogan:- Phillipp Sparnan and Vitamatris ? - 2nd October 1669 Phillip Sparnon and Maray - 26th December 1691 Questions:- 1. Did the same Philip Sparnon marry twice or perhaps three times? 2. Did three separate Philip Sparnons marry and just happen to all get buried on the same day? 3. Where did the LDS Member get the date of 28th July 1669 for the marriage to Thomasin? 4. Why does CFHS have 2nd October 1669 for the same date and refer to 'Vitamatris'? 5. Where did you get the information that Philip was bpt 1655? I'm getting sick of Jingle Bells - does the other leg play something different? ;D Please don't take offence Ted but it amuses me just how much these type of LDS/IGI entries affect people and they way they think and just how far down the Perpetual Garden Path people are led. I will take another look through all of the above and see if I can make any sense out of it. CT
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getafish460
Ysel
British by birth, Icelandic by adoption, Cornish by the grace of God!!
Posts: 106
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Post by getafish460 on May 12, 2011 7:00:05 GMT -5
I'm going to have to Thank you and desist from giving you further problems. You seem to be spending too much time clearing up one mess or another that I've led myself into. Time to back-step and start again from where I know everything is on the ball, and have a few choice words with some of the sources that I've been using. P.S. I hate IGI as well, and, like you, only use it for clues over where abouts to be looking. Thanks again, Ted
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 12, 2011 9:20:09 GMT -5
Ted - No need to pack the bags and disappear over this one! Getting the proverbial 'bum steer' is all part of genealogy and it is a matter of working through the rubbish to find the truth. (Or as near to it as is possible!) Yes, you may have to back-track and start again in some places but at least you have the knowledge now that some things are not right and possibly others are suspect. All part of the learning experience that we all have to deal with. Start again by all means using what you know to be correct and have those 'choice words'. BUT - keep on going here and keep asking questions and I will help as much as I can. Don't worry about any time I might spend on a problem for you. I am doing it all the time for many others as well and many times I get sidetracked onto things that take me days to work out. You would be surprised how often a query such as yours will lead me to something I had a problem with years ago. And you might be even more surprised at just how many times I manage to find solutions to those old problems because of ferreting away for information for the likes of yourself. So hang in there and fire away any time with questions or requests for help. CT
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getafish460
Ysel
British by birth, Icelandic by adoption, Cornish by the grace of God!!
Posts: 106
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Post by getafish460 on May 17, 2011 0:43:17 GMT -5
RIGHT!!......... CT,I've sorted myself out a bit! And the first cock-up was all mine!.....let me explain,........... because my Family tree files are getting somewhat large (you all know what I mean) I've a tendancy to work from my charts, as set out by myself. Where the initial problem started was with me writing down 1655 instead of 1650, because the entry above, another Philip by the way, was Bpt 1685, and in a rush I inadvertently dropped the 5 down when typing it up. SO.....in agreeance with your findings, I've checked back and got Philip Sparnon B.1650 (Bd.19/8/1707) It would appear (and thanks for the steer to this one) the he married three times: Thomasin(28/7/1669) who died shortly afterwards (it is "supposed" and yet to be confirmed) that "Vita Matris" refers to her. He then married the elusive Elizabeth, mother to Philip Jnr (bpt 31/1/1685). at what point she dissapears I've yet to ascertain, but he marries again on St Stevens day (26 Dec) 1691 to Maray. I have not taken time to look up the burial dates for any of them yet, but I have the burial records from Illogan parish for the relevant years. With your mention of Willus Sparnon and Jane Goode as Philip's parents I may have achieved a link with some previous research that I'd done, which I'll share with you later on and beg your assistance on. Suffice to say that I think I've got his baptism records, as the youngest of eleven, as well as everyone back to reign of Henry VIII (or perhaps a decade earlier) catch you later, and thanks again for all your help Ted
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 17, 2011 3:53:12 GMT -5
Well done Ted! Good to hear you are 'ready to go' again with the head perhaps being a little more clear. I have a little interest in the Sparnon family so once you have things under control let me know the situation and we can work from there. If I see something that does not look right to me then I will be sure to raise the question with you. CT
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getafish460
Ysel
British by birth, Icelandic by adoption, Cornish by the grace of God!!
Posts: 106
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Post by getafish460 on May 17, 2011 21:49:10 GMT -5
Hi again. I think I may need the assistance of some of your resourses with this one (or maybe two, or even three!) Philip Sparnon (bpt 1650, etc) son of Wilus Sparnon and Jane Goode. I have only seen two references amongst my collection of records for persons named Willus Sparnon. one: Married to Avicia Foott in St Breage on 10 Oct 1615 (which, by my calculations makes him too young to be the particular Willus I'm looking for) and two: youngest of eleven children baptised in Breage between 1597 and 1631, unfortunately, the transcript of the record that i am in posession of states "date omitted" but roughly calculating I put it at about 1623 (+/- 5 yrs) which would put him in about the right timeframe to be Philip's father. This Willus is recorded as son of Edvardi Sparnon (gent) and Annae. Moving to other records, I have details of the Visitation of Cornwall 1620 regarding the Sparnons (page205) which records Edward Sparnon married to Anne, daughter of Edw. Bugges of Harlow, Essex and the names of 3 of thier sons and 2 daughters, all of whom appear on the aforementioned baptismal records from Breage. However! Willus is not on this list, so I'm making the assumption that Willus was born after the visitation in 1620, which would go a little way towards confirming my timescale. From the same record Edward is son of Thomas and his first wife Jane, dau. of Pasco Kerne of Tresilian, although Philimore's transcipts have her named as Janne Trefulyan (married at St Breage 17 Jun 1588. also recorded is Thomas' second marriage to Thamsen, dau.of William Goldolphin, esq on 5th July 1598 although the visitation record shows her as Thomasin dau of Godolphin of Trewarvenner and married on the 10th and describe the source as Breage Par.Reg, but I'm sure that both records refer to the same person) I have no access to records that provide any dates for baptisms or burials for the names prior to Philip, but if it would help the list runs as follows: Thomas Sparnon, son of Edward Sparnon of Sparnon, married to Elizabeth,dau of John Toule of Dulverton in Somerset. son of John Sparnon of Sparnon, married to Margaret, dau. of John Martin of Breage, son of Simon Sparnon of Sparnon in Cornwall. A calculated chronology would be: Thomas born c.1568ish Edward born c. 1548 John born c.1528 Simon born c.1508 There appears in the Tinners Muster Roll for Breage c. 1535,along with Simon, another Thomas Sparnon (coming equipped with a Jack and a Bill)the same Thomas was assessed as having land worth £3 and 8/- and goods worth £13/6/ in 1522 and being, at this time equipped with a bow and arrows and a whole harness. In the lay subsidy of 1524 he appears, being taxed on goods worth £18. it is concievably possible that this Thomas is Simon's father and therefore would enter the choronology as being born c.1488 (in the reign of King Henry VII, towards the end of the Wars of the Roses. Obviously I'd like all this to be right!! In the meantime I'm going back to my burial records Regards and thanks Ted
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 18, 2011 7:05:16 GMT -5
Ted - first thing here is that we are dealing with Latinized names so that needs to be taken into account. Willus would be William Edvardi would be Edward I have to say that I am not overly familiar with the very early records as I have never managed to find enough on my family to require much of their use. At least not so far! But we do have at least a couple of members who might be able to offer a little help on a couple of these items so hopefully they will read the message and get involved. Willimus son of Thomae Spernon baptised 8th January 1618 Breage That is from Althea Barker's transcript of Breage baptisms and can be found on the OPC site. It might be worth your while to spend a little time with the Breage records and the OPC site to make sure you have that part of things correct and up to date. If I have the chance tomorrow I will sit down and read through your note again and try to get some sort of order in my brain. I do have a copy of the Visitations in PDF format so I could consult that also. CT
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getafish460
Ysel
British by birth, Icelandic by adoption, Cornish by the grace of God!!
Posts: 106
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Post by getafish460 on May 22, 2011 12:30:17 GMT -5
Hi CT, Yeah, I've come across Latinized names before. I'd like to think that it refers to the social status of the family that they're recording, but I guess it's most likely that it was just the way that the particular parish clerk worked in those days. I'm working my way through the baptism records (including Althea Barker's) to see what I come up with. I also need to back-track over a few details before I go off on one again. I've got a Willus being buried in Breage in 1623 but I guess that he's the one married to Avicia Foott in 1615 and who was buried in 1630. I'll keep trudging through, and keep you posted. I'm sure it'll be of interest to you, considering the family connection later on. regards Ted
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 22, 2011 16:08:57 GMT -5
G'day Ted - you will find that much of the early Breage stuff is mostly in Latin as is all of the early Gulval Parish Register. There are others as well but those two always stick in my mind. Unfortunately it is not to do with social status. I will be interested in your progress so do keep us updated and that way I will have a 'paper trail' to follow once it gets to question time again. CT
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getafish460
Ysel
British by birth, Icelandic by adoption, Cornish by the grace of God!!
Posts: 106
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Post by getafish460 on May 23, 2011 11:55:30 GMT -5
Appreciate your help CT
I'll keep you posted, and may ask for a bit of guidance and help along the way
Ted
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